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The Word Bearers are really the essence of chaos. They use a lot of daemons, etc. Lorgar is really interesting and has some pretty bad*** rules.

Lorgar is really interesting and has some pretty bad*** rules.

But hes not doing anything like most of the surviving primarchs so Erebus is running things and no one likes him.

That may not be the case anymore. According to the last chaos codex its rumored the daemon primarchs are marching with abbadon's latest crusade.

The Imperial Answer wrote:
That may not be the case anymore. According to the last chaos codex its rumored the daemon primarchs are marching with abbadon's latest crusade.

it'd not suprise me if GW eventually put out deamon primarch minis and rules, that strikes me as a sure fire seller

BrianDavion wrote:

The Imperial Answer wrote:
That may not be the case anymore. According to the last chaos codex its rumored the daemon primarchs are marching with abbadon's latest crusade.

it'd not suprise me if GW eventually put out deamon primarch minis and rules, that strikes me as a sure fire seller

Given the newer books of the HH novels such as Betrayer has prior to the final Siege of Terra, I wouldn't be surprised if The Horus Heresy Book 9: The Siege of Terra, features rules for Angron and Fulgrim Daemon Primarchs with accompanying models. Would be a guaranteed seller.

GW has been gradually bringing the daemon primarchs back into... well, not the limelight but they're doing stuff now, at least. The CSM codex has at least one quickie event for almost all of them (Logar didn't have one though) and the Black Legion supplement once again had at least one event for each of them (again, not all, but this time even Lorgar does something). The 6th Edition Codex mentions rumours that they've been spotted in the 13th Black Crusade as well.

So the best thing to assume is that just because we didn't see any fluff on them doesn't mean they weren't doing anything (both Mortarion and Magnus' fluff has always been that they've been conducting sorties out of the eye over the millenia for whatever reason, too, even if we never got any stories or specific events from that for the most part. Though we did get some like the Space Wolf novels and Draigo)

TiamatRoar wrote:
GW has been gradually bringing the daemon primarchs back into... well, not the limelight but they're doing stuff now, at least. The CSM codex has at least one quickie event for almost all of them (Logar didn't have one though) and the Black Legion supplement once again had at least one event for each of them (again, not all, but this time even Lorgar does something). The 6th Edition Codex mentions rumours that they've been spotted in the 13th Black Crusade as well.

So the best thing to assume is that just because we didn't see any fluff on them doesn't mean they weren't doing anything (both Mortarion and Magnus' fluff has always been that they've been conducting sorties out of the eye over the millenia for whatever reason, too, even if we never got any stories or specific events from that for the most part. Though we did get some like the Space Wolf novels and Draigo)

yup and apparently GW teased recently that they'd be willing to consider deamon primarchs.

really while they don't do any market research, I can't imagine them not looking at the HH novels, primarch mini sales from FW and concluding that "there's an intreast in these guys"

Can't stand 'em.

And not just because the ruined The Imperium for a Lie.

More because I'm really sick and tired of reading about them in the HH series!

 Alpharius wrote:
Can't stand 'me.

Love thine self.

Lorgar Chaos Undivided Daemon Primarch rules for 40k? Yes please

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Can't stand 'me.

Love thine self.

Oops!

Damn phone typing!

Fixed now...

Death to the False Prophets of False Gods of Falsehoods!

There are all different types of Chaos players. The assault guys i know almost always play with Sons of Horus or World Eaters of course. The shooty players use Thousand Sons, Emperor's Children or even Nurgle for Plague Marines. The guys who like it fast use Night Lords/Alpha Legion..etc. The Word Bearers really don't appeal for anything other than serious fluff reasons. If someone likes daemons they will play daemons. Yes, they started the Heresy, but they used someone more powerful (Horus) to do it. I don't see the appeal to use them.
Mass Zealot/+1S is really good and 3d6 morale checks are pretty awesome though.

If you're going to play Chaos Space Marines, you go big or you go home.

The other legions just aren't Chaos-y enough for my tastes.

Well, the Word Bearers are basically what you'd expect/hope for when you think grim darkness. They're the epitome of it. In terms of narrative, they make too much sense. If people found out that higher powers exist, its only natural to assume that many would consider it wise to follow them.

After all, when you don't have to worry about the warp what problems do you really have?

 Wilytank wrote:

 changerofways wrote:
As for the Word Bearers, I really dislike them for their zeal. I am disgusted by the idea of them

That's the best thing about them though. Chaos Space Marines need to know that they're inferior to daemons and that's what Word Bearers do. Your Iron Warriors think they're above the gods? Wait until they get the invoice saying "Hey, in case you didn't realize, you belong to us now."

Glorifying the gods is what helps the Chaos Space Marines actually be Chaos Space Marines. Without that, CSM as a whole are a terrible representation of Chaos.

I just mean I'm disgusted by zealous people in the real world, and I see a part of them in some of the fictional characters in WH40K. Their fluff is fine, I dislike the idea of them, not them!

Kind of a faction I love to hate, if you get me

 Androxine Vortex wrote:
Initially my favorite traitor legion was the Thousand Sons because Tzeentch is my favorite Chaos God and then i liked Iron Warriors because of their color and the novel Storm of Iron. But i have always loved the Word Bearers. I like that they worship Chaos Undivided and how fanatical they are.

But the jist i get from most warhammer40 fans is that they are not liked, hardly at all. I know I'm free to enjoy whichever legion i like but just wanted to ask the community here. Do you like their fluff, combat doctrine, etc.

I personally love their color design too

Most of the reasons why the Word Bearers get dumped on is that they were weak. Their primarch was the weakest, both mentally and emotionally, and the Marines of the Chapter were easily led astray. They were also the least successful of the Legions. In fact, they were so expendable, Horus threw them at the Ultramarines even though he was fairly certain they'd lose.

Having a primarch who got tricked into being a sock puppet for Chaos, a bunch of unlikable weasels like Erebus and Kor Phaeron, and a poor military track record isn't going to make a huge fanbase. Though I don't think I'd say are "hardly liked", I think they're just one of those Legions where they have more people who dislike them. Kinda like the Ultrarmarines. Plenty of people like the Ultramarines. There's just a large, vocal number of jealous Ultramarines haters who don't like that Games Workshop didn't pick their favorite color of Space Marines to be the best twenty years ago.

I like Lorgar and his quest for an higher power.

I wish to see more stories about Chaos Primarchs in the 40k, but unfortunately I understand they could be difficult to deal with from a story telling point of view.

 Judge Dredd wrote:
I like Lorgar and his quest for an higher power.

I hate Lorgar for this very reason. As a staunch anti-religious Atheist, I believe, much like the Emperor, religion should be stamped out, else mankind cannot progress beyond the forbidding of their beliefs. Lorgar serves to me to highlight the evil and wrongness of religion and man's desperation for self-destruction. Lorgar cannot help but look for his god(s) and in doing so destroyed himself, his sons, his life's work of what little planets he conquered, caused the death of at least 4 of his brothers and likely the death of another 5. Not counting Vulkan's numerous deaths. Tis a sickening idea that anyone would choose religion over sense and science.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Judge Dredd wrote:
I like Lorgar and his quest for an higher power.

I hate Lorgar for this very reason. As a staunch anti-religious Atheist, I believe, much like the Emperor, religion should be stamped out, else mankind cannot progress beyond the forbidding of their beliefs. Lorgar serves to me to highlight the evil and wrongness of religion and man's desperation for self-destruction. Lorgar cannot help but look for his god(s) and in doing so destroyed himself, his sons, his life's work of what little planets he conquered, caused the death of at least 4 of his brothers and likely the death of another 5. Not counting Vulkan's numerous deaths. Tis a sickening idea that anyone would choose religion over sense and science.

The difference here though is that there is no proof of God or Gods and it's easy to dismiss such notions. In 40k Gods, or somethings that can be passed off as Gods, are real. Lorgar chose truth over a lie, a painful, destructive truth sure. Which I guess is one of the reason why I feel they should be disliked. Their inability to just accept their place and their need to adopt a master and worship it, it's pretty weak. Using that to give them purpose when their purpose is what the Emperor lays out for them, that neediness is sickening in a way.

I like their fluff, they are a Legion I love to hate.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Judge Dredd wrote:
I like Lorgar and his quest for an higher power.

I hate Lorgar for this very reason. As a staunch anti-religious Atheist, I believe, much like the Emperor, religion should be stamped out, else mankind cannot progress beyond the forbidding of their beliefs. Lorgar serves to me to highlight the evil and wrongness of religion and man's desperation for self-destruction. Lorgar cannot help but look for his god(s) and in doing so destroyed himself, his sons, his life's work of what little planets he conquered, caused the death of at least 4 of his brothers and likely the death of another 5. Not counting Vulkan's numerous deaths. Tis a sickening idea that anyone would choose religion over sense and science.

The difference here though is that there is no proof of God or Gods and it's easy to dismiss such notions. In 40k Gods, or somethings that can be passed off as Gods, are real. Lorgar chose truth over a lie, a painful, destructive truth sure. Which I guess is one of the reason why I feel they should be disliked. Their inability to just accept their place and their need to adopt a master and worship it, it's pretty weak. Using that to give them purpose when their purpose is what the Emperor lays out for them, that neediness is sickening in a way.

I like their fluff, they are a Legion I love to hate.

That is true, there is a slight difference but none that makes a difference. The whiny compulsive need to worship someone or something is why Lorgar should be on his knees scrubbing the floor, not out conquering worlds and making them bend a knee. Why couldn't he have listened to his father and just accepted the truth that there are no Gods, just Demons that should remain in hell? And by that I simply mean Lorgar should have left well enough alone.

 Deadshot wrote:


That is true, there is a slight difference but none that makes a difference.

No, this makes a COLOSSAL difference, actually. In a universe like the one of WH40K, having all the signals you could have on one side (The Warp, the soul, higher powers working) while on the other you simply have another being proclaiming himself all-knowing just telling you, "No son, no such thing as gods and such, now do as I want without further explanations and humiliate yourself by kneeing in front of me and your hated brother or face annihilation, please" would make you look like a closed mind idiot to just accept the second one without a blink.

If there is someone to blame for what happened that is only The Emperor (unless he actually wanted to make the heresy happen for other means, but it wouldn't make him any less of an donkey-cave). There would have been like one thousand better ways to handle this rather than forcing lies upon us sons.

Also the comparing with the real world is just bad. Here we don't have tangible evidences of an ethereal dimension or whatever. In the WH40K universe the proves of an high power were just there, and spawning beings as high and powerful as the Primarchs hoping that they would have never been put under the influence of such power was just as delusional as hoping that the Imperial Truth (Imperial Lie more) would have hold.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:


Tis a sickening idea that anyone would choose religion over sense and science.

Wrong. He choosed a truth (for how awful and terrible it could have been) over a lie. Big difference.

 Judge Dredd wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:


That is true, there is a slight difference but none that makes a difference.

No, this makes a COLOSSAL difference, actually. In a universe like the one of WH40K, having all the signals you could have on one side (The Warp, the soul, higher powers working) while on the other you simply have another being proclaiming himself all-knowing just telling you, "No son, no such thing as gods and such, now do as I want without further explanations and humiliate yourself by kneeing in front of me and your hated brother or face annihilation, please" would make you look like a closed mind idiot to just accept the second one without a blink.

If there is someone to blame for what happened that is only The Emperor (unless he actually wanted to make the heresy happen for other means, but it wouldn't make him any less of an donkey-cave). There would have been like one thousand better ways to handle this rather than forcing lies upon us sons.

Also the comparing with the real world is just bad. Here we don't have tangible evidences of an ethereal dimension or whatever. In the WH40K universe the proves of an high power were just there, and spawning beings as high and powerful as the Primarchs hoping that they would have never been put under the influence of such power was just as delusional as hoping that the Imperial Truth (Imperial Lie more) would have hold.

No, it doesn't. All evidence in 40k points to deity worship leading to suffering and hardship.
Example A: the Eldar. They have gods, spawned an evil "god" that now devours their souls when their die.
Example B: Orks. They have gods and are stuck in a perpetual cycle of violence and self destruction. Not that they mind but still.
Example C: Lorgar. Having gods leads to Horus Heresy and almost complete destruction of humanity, death of between 4 and 10 of your brothers, multiple repeated deaths of a 11th, your father close to death and stuck in an endless cycle of war against the very people you once protected while mutated into an immortal Daemon alongside your remaining 5 brothers, eternally at the beck and call of your gods, without choice or free will.
Example D: 41st Millenium Imperium. Believe Emperor is a god. All the above problems along with technological stagnation, oppression, Daemons, Tyranids and Necrons and Tau.
Example E: Tau, no gods. Rapid and remarkable technological innovation and advancement, a balanced and accepting society where all is welcome.
Example F: Necrons: No gods. Entered into mechanical bodies and beat other factions "gods," becoming functionally immortal, shattering the godlike C'tan and enslaving them. Slight bit of misfortune with a species wide disease, but waking back up and reclaiming an Empire and organic bodies isn't bad.
Example G: Tyranids. No gods. All you can eat buffet. Nuff said.


Remember the Lion King, where Mufasa says "You must never go there Simba?" A son should trust his father's wisdom, especially when said father can obliterate you and your sons in a second. When my dad lays down the law in his house, I follow the rules. Don't you? Its as simple as this, Lorgar should have obeyed the rules and been home before dark. Then everything would have been ok


And yes, I will compare it to real life because 40k is both a metaphor for and a parody of real life. Futhermore, there are no Chaos Gods as gods cannot be created by man (or Eldar). the very fact that man's emotion gave rise to Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch means they are not gods, and the same true for Slaanesh and the Eldar. Gods are the creators, not the created.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Judge Dredd wrote:


Tis a sickening idea that anyone would choose religion over sense and science.

Wrong. He choosed a truth (for how awful and terrible it could have been) over a lie. Big difference.

 Deadshot wrote:


No, it doesn't. All evidence in 40k points to deity worship leading to suffering and hardship.
Example A: the Eldar. They have gods, spawned an evil "god" that now devours their souls when their die.
Example B: Orks. They have gods and are stuck in a perpetual cycle of violence and self destruction. Not that they mind but still.
Example C: Lorgar. Having gods leads to Horus Heresy and almost complete destruction of humanity, death of between 4 and 10 of your brothers, multiple repeated deaths of a 11th, your father close to death and stuck in an endless cycle of war against the very people you once protected while mutated into an immortal Daemon alongside your remaining 5 brothers, eternally at the beck and call of your gods, without choice or free will.
Example D: 41st Millenium Imperium. Believe Emperor is a god. All the above problems along with technological stagnation, oppression, Daemons, Tyranids and Necrons and Tau.
Example E: Tau, no gods. Rapid and remarkable technological innovation and advancement, a balanced and accepting society where all is welcome.
Example F: Necrons: No gods. Entered into mechanical bodies and beat other factions "gods," becoming functionally immortal, shattering the godlike C'tan and enslaving them. Slight bit of misfortune with a species wide disease, but waking back up and reclaiming an Empire and organic bodies isn't bad.
Example G: Tyranids. No gods. All you can eat buffet. Nuff said.

Fulgrim had a world full of infinite pleasure. Lorgar choosed freely his destiny (whatever it is closing himself up in a tower and meditating). All the Chaos Primarch were amply rewarded and now are immortal (not only from a biological clock point of view). So as you see, all evidence pointing to the fact the Primarchs were more or less right in joining Chaos, and had their own rewards in the end.

Dark Eldars are greatly rewarded too.

The Orks have Gods and as their natural instinct is to fight, it seems it is working perfectly for them.
So your assesment atheist>believer isn't really an absolute in WH40K.

Of course the CG aren't peaceful beings, and of course they bring suffering and plague, but that wasn't the point.
Or you want to tell me that The Emperor never bring such things, with his various slaughters of whoever wouldn't accept him as the absolute savior and even the occasional purges and sacrifices of the ones loyal to him?

You see, there aren't good guys or right paths in WH40K. Following an atheist view rather than enlightment will probably just bring you the same amount of suffering. It's ingrained in the setting.

 Deadshot wrote:


Remember the Lion King, where Mufasa says "You must never go there Simba?" A son should trust his father's wisdom, especially when said father can obliterate you and your sons in a second. When my dad lays down the law in his house, I follow the rules. Don't you? Its as simple as this, Lorgar should have obeyed the rules and been home before dark. Then everything would have been ok

A disney cartoon as the ultimate morality advice? Really?

It's surprising to hear this thoughts from somebody who calls himself an "anti-religious atheist".
As an adult I certainly respect my father, but my life is mine and what I decide to do is my businness. I don't let others indoctrinate me.

What if The Emperor told them to start adoring him like a God? What if YOUR dad start to tell you to go church and pray for your soul? Would you still say that it's your father and therefore you have to follow his laws blindly, or this silly reasoning is fine just as long as it encounters your own standards?

Fathers aren't all knowing, always right individuals. Not in this world, and certainly not even in the case of The Emperor.
And maybe it's the case to remember once more that Primarchs, while still plenty of human needs, were generally incredibly intelligent beings with ambitions and individual minds, not children or mindless robots.

 Deadshot wrote:


And yes, I will compare it to real life because 40k is both a metaphor for and a parody of real life. Futhermore, there are no Chaos Gods as gods cannot be created by man (or Eldar). the very fact that man's emotion gave rise to Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch means they are not gods, and the same true for Slaanesh and the Eldar. Gods are the creators, not the created.



Wrong. The truth is that there are no gods, just beings pretending to be. And note the Emperor never claimed to be, quite the opposite in fact.

You are just arguing semantics here.

You can call it an higher power if you prefer it over the word "gods". It just doesn't make any difference to the fact The Emperor flat out lied and managed this whole situation in the worst of the ways.

 Judge Dredd wrote:

You can call it an higher power if you prefer it over the word "gods". It just doesn't make any difference to the fact The Emperor flat out lied and managed this whole situation in the worst of the ways.

I think he's correct in that actually. The 'gods' in 40K aren't actually gods except to their followers. They do have magical powers beyond mortals but so do Psykers. Who qualify as gods in 40K to you?

How much the Emperor lied is hard to tell. Everyone already knew there was bad stuff in the Warp. He couldn't hide that. So what was actually said to the Primarchs? That there wasn't sapient life in the Warp? How did he justify Psyker culls? That they were liable to just go crazy?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

I think he's correct in that actually. The 'gods' in 40K aren't actually gods except to their followers. They do have magical powers beyond mortals but so do Psykers. Who qualify as gods in 40K to you?

I didn't say he wasn't in this specific point.

I call them Gods because they are usually defined as "Chaos Gods". I know they don't qualify as "gods" in the true meaning of the word. That's why I say that if you are more comfortable in calling the divinities in WH40K an higher power, magical beings or whatever to the point I'm making it is indifferent.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:


How much the Emperor lied is hard to tell. Everyone already knew there was bad stuff in the Warp. He couldn't hide that. So what was actually said to the Primarchs? That there wasn't sapient life in the Warp? How did he justify Psyker culls? That they were liable to just go crazy?

As far as I remember the first HH books, it was pretty clear that The Emperor just told them (or at least to a great deal of them) that there wasn't an order or specific intelligence in the Warp.

 Deadshot wrote:
And yes, I will compare it to real life because 40k is both a metaphor for and a parody of real life. Futhermore, there are no Chaos Gods as gods cannot be created by man (or Eldar). the very fact that man's emotion gave rise to Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch means they are not gods, and the same true for Slaanesh and the Eldar. Gods are the creators, not the created..

What is a god but a being worshiped by those beneath?

Your "gods must be creators, cannot be created" idea is hardly a universally accepted definition.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Judge Dredd wrote:
I like Lorgar and his quest for an higher power.

I hate Lorgar for this very reason. As a staunch anti-religious Atheist, I believe, much like the Emperor, religion should be stamped out, else mankind cannot progress beyond the forbidding of their beliefs. Lorgar serves to me to highlight the evil and wrongness of religion and man's desperation for self-destruction. Lorgar cannot help but look for his god(s) and in doing so destroyed himself, his sons, his life's work of what little planets he conquered, caused the death of at least 4 of his brothers and likely the death of another 5. Not counting Vulkan's numerous deaths. Tis a sickening idea that anyone would choose religion over sense and science.

Ha, the Emperor, anti-religious. The Emperor wasn't an atheist, and he only wanted religion stamped out because he (mistakenly) believed that knowing of the Chaos Gods would give them some sort of advantage. He knew full well what lurked out there. In fact, he underestimated Chaos enormously.

A god is a divine being capable of creating matter from nothing and has created beings that worship it.

You misunderstand me. I mean I believe religion must be stamped out, like the Emperor says. Not that he was an Atheist.

They are terrible house guests.

Lorgar actually got his "happy ending". The dude was so happy that his roar of triumph when he was granted daemon princedom (and not because he was now a daemon prince, but because everything he believed in had been vindicated) echo'd throughout the entire warp, for crying out loud. So yea, you can call him a "sock puppet", but he got what he wanted in the end (or at least, so far, since Warhammer hasn't ended).

Like he said in the intro to the book of Lorgar. All he wanted was the truth. And he got it and was satisfied (until/unless that gets retconned but it hasn't so far)

And what is the truth? that now the galaxy and all of mankind is locked in perpetual warfare because of his actions? Pretty selfish thing to do. If someone sent the world into WW3 just to prove or disprove a God or his own beliefs he'd go down in history as the biggest psychopathic scumbag ever, and makes Hilter look like a baby threw its toys out of the pram.

I never denied that the individual Primarchs got their desires, but the rest of humanity is screwed now because of their selfish desires. To boot, all the surviving traitor Primarchs are the immortal sock puppets of and eternally slaved to the whim of the Ruinous powers.