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Akiasura wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'm not seeing the bad codex other people are. Guess I'm just blind?

It won't play the same way it currently does but that's not a bad thing.

You're not blind. I be sticking with the old codex for a while purely for financial reasons, but there's nothing here screaming terrible. The changes to the characters seem a little harsh (no Ragnar giving tones of attacks and no EW Arjac) but the core of the codex is fine. You can now get 3 'specials' in a Drop Pod GH squad with the combi, you can save points on CCW if you're planning on staying back or fight armies that you're better off shooting (and with CA, they're still capable in assault without the extra weapon), some very nice point drops abound (Blood Claws for 12ppm and Dreads for 95 points? Hell Yeah!)

Overall, I think there's some very interesting stuff there, I look forward to eventually trying out some new tricks.

Bikes are worse than vanilla Sm
Scouts are now worse than before (my favorite unit!)
Weapons more expensive and CC effectiveness reduced
Anti-psyker weaker...Though this was known to be coming.
Sagas might as well be gone
Our lords are weaker than Sm leaders.

In exchange we got a slight variance in troops (I'm not sure what the troop choice will be but at least there is a choice) and better termies, though they can't be spread out to squads anymore.

But yeah. I just hate change. It's not like I also play Nids and chaos or anything else that has suffered after recent codexes.

The Swiftclaws perform a totally different role to their SM counterparts, the only similarity is that they both use bikes. A points drop is what they needed, and what they got. Can't complain.

Scouts are worse but cheaper, and can still work well as melta/plasma delivery system.

The CC effectiveness of GH has been reduced per point, but say hello to 12-point Blood Claws, the cheapest MEQ in the game and spitting out 4 attacks on the charge! They also no longer need babysitting.

Anti-psyker is a very tricky area in 7th, the only counter to mass psychic is your own mass psychic, and only Eldar, Demons and GK. Go up against a psyker-spam list with anything less than half a dozen of your own and you're losing in that phase. On a unit-by-unit basis, our Priests get Adamantium Will, making them better than most SM psykers.

Sagas are a hit, I'll grant you.

Our lords are weaker than SM Chapter Masters because they're not Chapter Masters, they're Captain equivalents and given that they can get Thunderwolves, I think they're still in good stead to kick some heads in. Making them as good as a Chapter Master makes no sense fluff or rules-wise.

If you think the change is unwarranted, though, see if you can keep using the old dex. Some opponents might be good with it if you're playing casual, so it's worth a shot.

Our chapter master could kick their chapter master's butt though.

 pretre wrote:

For funsies, you could attach Arjac to a Lone Wolf. Also, Arjac can attach to allies now, which may be interesting.

Lone Wolves have a special rule called "Pack of one". It prevents ICs from joining them as they arent ICs themselves they cant join others as well.

 Mywik wrote:

 pretre wrote:

For funsies, you could attach Arjac to a Lone Wolf. Also, Arjac can attach to allies now, which may be interesting.

Lone Wolves have a special rule called "Pack of one". It prevents ICs from joining them as they arent ICs themselves they cant join others as well.

Aww, no one had posted that previously. There goes that idea, Hulk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What disciplines do Rune Priests get, Mywik?

 WallaceMerrett wrote:

 Mywik wrote:
Lucas is 80 and can only join boodclaws and if there is a unit of bloodclaws in the detachment he doesnt use up a slot. The same with arjac and wolfguard for 115pts. Lucas opponents have -3 WS in a challenge through the pelt instead of the old effect.

Hmmm... so have I got this right? Lukas and Arjac are both ICs that can be taken independently of an actual unit, Blood Claws and Wolf Guard Terminators respectively. If they do so they take up a slot, but if they join their respective units they do not? That's an interesting development for these two if true!

1) Can WG TDA take a Power/Chain Fist in one hand an a Wolf Claw in the other?
2) Can a WL PA take a Power Fist in one hand and a Wolf Claw in the other, (specifically when taking a Thunderwolf Mount)?
3) Points and stats for TDA Njal Stormcaller?
4) Are WG PA combi-weapons really 10pts per model? Damn.
5) Are Land Speeder Typhoons still 90pts per model? (50pts base and 40pts for the Typhoon missile launcher), hoping for a decrease!
5) Anything exciting for Iron Priests?

They can never join units other than their respective "home" units. If you include them in your detachment and have one of these units too they dont take a foc slot.

1) Yes they can
2) Yes they can (although it is the old "replace with one of the following" thing ... so maybe debatable
3)TDA Njal is 180pts
4)Yes, they are
5)50pts base +25 for the ML
6) No


Runepriests DIsciplines:
Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination, Telekinesis and Tempestas

Whats the deal with Wolf Claws for Dreads? Just normal Wolf Cla rules (S as user, AP 3, re-roll hit or wound)? That would really suck for a payable upgrade.

Wow. Cheap combis is great.

Ragnar69 wrote:
Whats the deal with Wolf Claws for Dreads? Just normal Wolf Cla rules (S as user, AP 3, re-roll hit or wound)? That would really suck for a payable upgrade.

Great Wolf Claw - sx2 ap2 -shred, specialist weapon.

 Paradigm wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'm not seeing the bad codex other people are. Guess I'm just blind?

It won't play the same way it currently does but that's not a bad thing.

You're not blind. I be sticking with the old codex for a while purely for financial reasons, but there's nothing here screaming terrible. The changes to the characters seem a little harsh (no Ragnar giving tones of attacks and no EW Arjac) but the core of the codex is fine. You can now get 3 'specials' in a Drop Pod GH squad with the combi, you can save points on CCW if you're planning on staying back or fight armies that you're better off shooting (and with CA, they're still capable in assault without the extra weapon), some very nice point drops abound (Blood Claws for 12ppm and Dreads for 95 points? Hell Yeah!)

Overall, I think there's some very interesting stuff there, I look forward to eventually trying out some new tricks.

Bikes are worse than vanilla Sm
Scouts are now worse than before (my favorite unit!)
Weapons more expensive and CC effectiveness reduced
Anti-psyker weaker...Though this was known to be coming.
Sagas might as well be gone
Our lords are weaker than Sm leaders.

In exchange we got a slight variance in troops (I'm not sure what the troop choice will be but at least there is a choice) and better termies, though they can't be spread out to squads anymore.

But yeah. I just hate change. It's not like I also play Nids and chaos or anything else that has suffered after recent codexes.

The Swiftclaws perform a totally different role to their SM counterparts, the only similarity is that they both use bikes. A points drop is what they needed, and what they got. Can't complain.

Scouts are worse but cheaper, and can still work well as melta/plasma delivery system.

The CC effectiveness of GH has been reduced per point, but say hello to 12-point Blood Claws, the cheapest MEQ in the game and spitting out 4 attacks on the charge! They also no longer need babysitting.

Anti-psyker is a very tricky area in 7th, the only counter to mass psychic is your own mass psychic, and only Eldar, Demons and GK. Go up against a psyker-spam list with anything less than half a dozen of your own and you're losing in that phase. On a unit-by-unit basis, our Priests get Adamantium Will, making them better than most SM psykers.

Sagas are a hit, I'll grant you.

Our lords are weaker than SM Chapter Masters because they're not Chapter Masters, they're Captain equivalents and given that they can get Thunderwolves, I think they're still in good stead to kick some heads in. Making them as good as a Chapter Master makes no sense fluff or rules-wise.

If you think the change is unwarranted, though, see if you can keep using the old dex. Some opponents might be good with it if you're playing casual, so it's worth a shot.

Swift claws perform a different role, true, which is that of a CC focus. Playing chaos though has taught me that CC bikes are mediocre at best. You really want them for quick shooting on a tough platform. You can charge them after rapid firing a unit, which is nice. I'm not sure if anyone will take WG bikes since they'll be very expensive when compared to other armies.

Weapon costs were listed. 5/10/15 no longer free special. This makes grey hunters more expensive for squads and with less melee punch due to other changes.

I thought I saw that WG can no longer be handed out to other squads. If this is no longer the case that is indeed nice as I always loved that ability for us and wish chaos had it.

Fluff is fluff. If fluff were rules a khorne juggerlord would destroy a space marine on a bike, but the opposite is true. Wolves have an alright melee option without sagas. I'm glad the wolves add another wound, that'll help, but I'm not sure how good TWC will end up being.

Blood Claws are cheaper, 2 points less than other marines without chapter tactics and weaker stats. Better, but let's not pretend they are great. I can see them being taken with certain IC though (looking at you Ragnar) but they fail at the primary role of marines.

Scouts seem weaker now, and I don't think cheaper points will help enough to make them taken. We'll see though how it pans out.

This is a bit off topic, but why are so many weapons referred to as wolf claws? Wolves don't really use their claws to attack, that's more of a feline thing.

 Mywik wrote:

Runepriests DIsciplines:
Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination, Telekinesis and Tempestas

YEAH.

Akiasura wrote:
I thought I saw that WG can no longer be handed out to other squads. If this is no longer the case that is indeed nice as I always loved that ability for us and wish chaos had it.

This is why it is important to see the whole picture first...

WG aren't handed out, but pretty much every squad can upgrade to a WG for about 10 points and that gets them access to all the WG wargear. They can also take TDA in most squads as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Super Newb wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

Runepriests DIsciplines:
Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination, Telekinesis and Tempestas

YEAH.

Ooh ninja edit. Not getting telepathy isn't a big surprise.

Bio and Div are the ones I was hoping for though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How much are rune priests now?

 pretre wrote:
Wow. Cheap combis is great.

Not on PA WG. *cries*

Still, I expected that one...

Super Newb wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Wow. Cheap combis is great.

Not on PA WG. *cries*

Still, I expected that one...

4) Are WG PA combi-weapons really 10pts per model? Damn.
4)Yes, they are

So, am I missing something? That's PA WG for 10 points.

 pretre wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I thought I saw that WG can no longer be handed out to other squads. If this is no longer the case that is indeed nice as I always loved that ability for us and wish chaos had it.

This is why it is important to see the whole picture first...

WG aren't handed out, but pretty much every squad can upgrade to a WG for about 10 points and that gets them access to all the WG wargear. They can also take TDA in most squads as well.

Only thing that is really different now is that you cant get a WGPL that is equipped with a termi heavy weapon. But thats about it. The new way to deliver WG to squads is easier to understand for your opponent when he reviews your list and isnt familiar. Im fine with that change.

Rune priests are 60 base with ml1 and ml2 costs 25pts.

Agreed. I like it! Not to mention it saves us an elite slot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although we can't get an Invisible Logan on Stormrider, we can get an Endurance Logan on Stormrider.

Psychic Powers:
Primaris:
Living Lightning
Witchpower 1WC
18" s7 ap - Assault3, Shock
Shock = each hit 6 generates 2 additional hits

Storm caller
Blessing 1WC
Target Unit gets shrouding

Tempests Wrath
Malediction 1 WC
Target unit gets -1 BS and is in difficult terrain additionally has to take dangerous terrain test (i assume that because the book says it has to take a "dangerous test" )

Thunderclap
Nova 1 WC
12" Range s3 ap- Assault d6

Murderous hurricane
witchfire 1 Wc
18" s4 ap- Assault 1, large blast, rending

Fury of the Wolf spirits
Witchfire 2 WC
Freki: 18" s6 ap- assault 4
Geri: 18" s5 ap2 assault 2, Precision Shot

Jaws of the World Wolf:
Focused Witchpower 2WC
Target non vehicle unit within 18". Model hit has to pass ini test or removed from play. Monstrous creatures auto pass the test.



So much about "no invisibility"

Shrouding isn't invisibility though. Invis is crazy good.

How much are rune priests?

 pretre wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I thought I saw that WG can no longer be handed out to other squads. If this is no longer the case that is indeed nice as I always loved that ability for us and wish chaos had it.

This is why it is important to see the whole picture first...

WG aren't handed out, but pretty much every squad can upgrade to a WG for about 10 points and that gets them access to all the WG wargear. They can also take TDA in most squads as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Super Newb wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

Runepriests DIsciplines:
Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination, Telekinesis and Tempestas

YEAH.

Ooh ninja edit. Not getting telepathy isn't a big surprise.

Bio and Div are the ones I was hoping for though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How much are rune priests now?

That does seem easier.

And the rest of my points?

 pretre wrote:
Shrouding isn't invisibility though. Invis is crazy good.

How much are rune priests?

60 for ml1 85 for ml2

I have to say both flyers seem crazy good to me. The Transport is 215 Base and the Gunship is 220 base. Its just plain better than a SR.

Having never ever played SW before, a day deciding this would be my first space wolves army, the rules changes don't bother me all that much. I'm already thinking of some good combos and personally I can't wait for my book to arrive. I still think they can be quite competitive they're just not as beat face as before.

When the 5th ed Dex dropped, EVERYONE bought space wolves. Including a friend of mine. And they weren't fun for me as it was pretty much an instant win for him. For me they have taken a hefty beefing, but I kinda welcome it. I'm hoping it means the whole world won't be building a new SW army with me.

And to the Op, thanks for this. Epic thread, and I'm sure everyone appreciates it.

Got a few little questions.

1) do long fangs have access to special as well as heavy weapons and are they normal points cost?
2) can WG take any melee weapons? And what's the minimum squad size for PAWG? Can I take 5 on bikes all with axes and claws? Or PF and claw combos?

 Mywik wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Shrouding isn't invisibility though. Invis is crazy good.

How much are rune priests?

60 for ml1 85 for ml2

Holy crap that's cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:
Swift claws perform a different role, true, which is that of a CC focus. Playing chaos though has taught me that CC bikes are mediocre at best. You really want them for quick shooting on a tough platform. You can charge them after rapid firing a unit, which is nice. I'm not sure if anyone will take WG bikes since they'll be very expensive when compared to other armies.

WG bikes vs Troop bikes are more expensive, but WG bikes are more comparable to command squads, etc.

Weapon costs were listed. 5/10/15 no longer free special. This makes grey hunters more expensive for squads and with less melee punch due to other changes.

Sure.

Fluff is fluff. If fluff were rules a khorne juggerlord would destroy a space marine on a bike, but the opposite is true. Wolves have an alright melee option without sagas. I'm glad the wolves add another wound, that'll help, but I'm not sure how good TWC will end up being.

A lot of this is wait and see.

Blood Claws are cheaper, 2 points less than other marines without chapter tactics and weaker stats. Better, but let's not pretend they are great. I can see them being taken with certain IC though (looking at you Ragnar) but they fail at the primary role of marines.

Wolf Priests as well will probably be a good fit.

Scouts seem weaker now, and I don't think cheaper points will help enough to make them taken. We'll see though how it pans out.

Yeah, I don't see WS being that viable right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
2) can WG take any melee weapons? And what's the minimum squad size for PAWG? Can I take 5 on bikes all with axes and claws? Or PF and claw combos?

Yes. 5. Yes. Yes.

 pretre wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Wow. Cheap combis is great.

Not on PA WG. *cries*

Still, I expected that one...

4) Are WG PA combi-weapons really 10pts per model? Damn.
4)Yes, they are

So, am I missing something? That's PA WG for 10 points.

Well before they were 18 points, 5 points upgrade for combi-weapion so 23 points.
Now they are 18 points, 10 points for combi at 28
OR
14 points for GH, 10 points to upgrade to WG pack leader, 10 points for combi-weapon, so 34 points.

 pretre wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Wow. Cheap combis is great.

Not on PA WG. *cries*

Still, I expected that one...

4) Are WG PA combi-weapons really 10pts per model? Damn.
4)Yes, they are

So, am I missing something? That's PA WG for 10 points.

Its a Wolf Guard in Power Armour at 18pts per model with a combi-weapon for an additional 10pts so 28pts total.

In the old Codex it was 18pts for the Wolf Guard in Power Armour and 5pts for a combi-weapon so 23pts total.

HOWEVER, as is apparently the case for all Wolf Guard x Leaders in this new Codex you pay for the upgrade instead of simply plonking one of your split up WG units so, (in the case of Grey Hunters at least), the upgrade is 15pts and then the comb-weapon is 10pts, so effectively 25pts total, not 28pts; every little helps!

P.S. Clearly I'm not angry about the points increase, was just a nice to have a 10 man WG unit, all in PA with combi-plasmas for 230pts + 35 for the Drop Pod, now it's 280pts + 35, (315 up from 265).

Ahh, gotcha. 10 points instead of 5.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:


And to the Op, thanks for this. Epic thread, and I'm sure everyone appreciates it.

Got a few little questions.

1) do long fangs have access to special as well as heavy weapons and are they normal points cost?
2) can WG take any melee weapons? And what's the minimum squad size for PAWG? Can I take 5 on bikes all with axes and claws? Or PF and claw combos?

Thanks. Was lucky to get my hands on the copy today so i thought i'd share. Always appreciated it when others did these threads in the past.

Your questions:
1)Long Fangs can only take Heavy Weapons. Weapon costs: HB 10, MM 10, ML 15, PC 15, LC 20
2)They can. Minimum size for PA WG is 4 WG+1 Pack leader. Yes to both.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WallaceMerrett wrote:



HOWEVER, as is apparently the case for all Wolf Guard x Leaders in this new Codex you pay for the upgrade instead of simply plonking one of your split up WG units so, (in the case of Grey Hunters at least), the upgrade is 15pts and then the comb-weapon is 10pts, so effectively 25pts total, not 28pts; every little helps!

WG Squads come with the WGPL you dont have to pay for the upgrade. So its 90p for 4+WGPL

so HB or ML longfangs got a bit more expensive and PC/LC longfangs got cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm. 90 for 5 LF, 1 Ancient, with 5 LC is 190 vs old was 200. That's neat. Have to play with loadouts.

1. How much are upgrades for Thunderwolves, i.e. SS, TH, PF, etc? Also I can't remember if you said it but are they 40ppm now?

2. Also how much is a Thunderwolf wargear option for ICs and do they still give +1 str, +1 T, and +1 atk?

And thank you very much for taking the time to do this.

 pretre wrote:
so HB or ML longfangs got a bit more expensive and PC/LC longfangs got cheaper.

Yes. They now have standard split fire USR instead of the old "do whatya want buddy" rule.

 WallaceMerrett wrote:


HOWEVER, as is apparently the case for all Wolf Guard x Leaders in this new Codex you pay for the upgrade instead of simply plonking one of your split up WG units so, (in the case of Grey Hunters at least), the upgrade is 15pts and then the comb-weapon is 10pts, so effectively 25pts total, not 28pts; every little helps!

It is not 100% clear, but I am more than 95% sure the Spanish leaked page says 10 points to upgrade a GH to a WG pack leader. The guy translating it agreed with me but I am not sure if he went back and corrected his original translation.