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Hi everyone,

after all the hate that people had for Wave Serpents in the last time I had a game myself where I fielded 5 of them in a 1850 points game. I defeated my opponent (it wasn't even a crushing defeat), and he was giving me the "totally overpowered speech". Long story short, I challenged him to play my Eldar list and I would take another army.

I chose CSM since they are not considered too strong and tailored a list. This included a Chaos Land Raider and two imperial bunkers. I chose a squad of 5 Havocs with Lascannons and another squad of 3 Oblitarators. I bought Munition Depot (the one where you can reroll 1s) for both bunkers. Havocs went into one bunker, Oblits in the other (my opponent claimed this was illegal, but I wouldn't know why and he could find anything in any rule book against it. Can someone confirm or deny?). Also had a Heldrake. The rest is not too important (quite some cultists, 5 PM in a rhino with 2 plasma guns and a regular squad with a Lascannon in a rhino). Oh and Ahriman as HQ, placed in the Rhino with the PM.

Well what can I say, I won the game and killed quite some wave serpents. The bunkers with AV14 couldn't get cracked by the serpents, the one Wraithknight focussed on the Land Raider. In the first turn he didn't shoot the serpent shields to not get pen hits so I didn't eat too much damage. In the second turn he did since he realized I would outgun him else. So he jinked when I shot at him in my turns, but without the serpent shield I ate away at his serpents every turn while he didn't really know what to shoot the S7 and S6 spam at. S6 at cultists? Be my guest. Shooting the S7 shields at the Rhinos and marines? Fine for me, in turn I could get pen hits with the high S shots. The munition depots were just great since only a 2 in the first shot missed and the 1 gave a reroll with a 4/6 chance.

Soooo, now I'd like to hear your opinion. I sure know that this list was tailor made for this setup and it would not help in a competitive environment. Still, my opponent was very frustrated since he lost against WS and lost with them. Did he just play bad? But I don't see much chances to react to this other than his options described above.

I mean high AV is a known counter to WS spam, but Imperial Bunkers are pretty cheap for what they deliver and you can fill them with any troops that would normally get smashed into pieces by Serpent spam. You can use those upgrades... for example you can take that additional access point and deliver some troops far into your opponent's area. Or you use that to get objective grabbers out to the front in the later turns. Give the bunker a Quad or Icarus and while waiting for grabbing objectives they can provide AA.

What do you think?

People think that I'm selling bunkers or something with how often I say to take them.
As for wave serpents, you can beat a 1 dimensional wave spam by running bunkers + AV14.

On the other hand, if he had 2 wraith knights, 2 crimson hunters, and 4 serpents (2w dire avengers, 2 with fire dragons), I'd bet the outcome is very different.

Poorly designed serpent spam, vs an army designed to kill it doesn't make serpents any more balanced.

I also do not understand the internet's fascination with Wave Serpents as unkillable gods of destruction, when they are actually neither.

They are decent, that's all. Spamming them is a strategy is a losing strategy.

You're right WS aren't godlike, but they do put out a lot of s6+ shots and are TL. So for the price they are an incredible value. On top of that they are a dedicated transport so they can be spammed rather easily without using a FOC slot.

An av12 fast skimmer with a 3+ cover and a 2+ chance to change glances to pens OR 6? St6 shots (2tl) and d6 +1 60" tl st7 ignore cover shots. And a transport cap. For 145pts... that's really good!
In comparison a baal pred for 145pts gets 6 st5 and 4 tl st6 rending shots. Has no jink save, has bo transport capacity and is not a skimmer for movement purposes. It is also supposed to be a mainline tank which takes up a slot.
If you spam them they are not all going to get shot at the same time so some will be putting out full fire power.
If you have 2 fragon serpents, 3 DA serpents, a wraithknight and a crimson hunter, as well as having points spare, you can own almost anything (as Matt suggested).
Almost any dex can tailor to beat a serp spam (barring BA) but those lists will then struggle tac wise.
The only list (which I've been able to play since I have the models, well proxying two scythes) I have managed to come up with which was excellent against serp spam and did well tac wise was the following:

Necrons
Overlord
Warscythe, phase shifter, mss, CCB

Overlord
Warscythe, phase shifter, mms, CCB

Royal court
Veiltek
2 stormteks
(2 more stormteks attached to units)

Royal court
Veiltek
2 stormteks
(2 more stormteks attached to units)

5 warriors
2 stormteks
Nightscythe

5 warriors
2 stormteks
Nightscythe

5 warriors
Nightscythe

5 warriors
Nightscythe

6 annihilation barges

2000pts

It isn't that fun to play either. Notice the spam.
I've theoried lists which should work. Usually involving bunkers, IF devs with las, IG with LRs (go pask!), Inq with lots of paybacks, etc, but never played them.

Serpents are not fun to play against and make you tailor armies that aren't really that fun to play with in my experience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and that list only fought ONE wraithknight. 2 may have been a problem.

At 1850, there should be some combination of 1-2 wraithknights, 1-2 fire dragon serpents, and 0-2 crimson hunters. Usually two of the three, two of which are maddeningly good at beating down AV 14. It seems like a poor spam list beat by a tailored list. Which, I mean, yeah. If you tailor to beat a list and beat the list, good job?

 obsidiankatana wrote:
It seems like a poor spam list beat by a tailored list. Which, I mean, yeah. If you tailor to beat a list and beat the list, good job?

You kinda missed the point. It's simply that people are stating things in threads on this board like "If WS are fielded, you better surrender". I also pointed out that it is not about competitive solutions. Just that when you're encountering WS spam a lot in your local environment, you might get back to having fun with the game if you add something to your list specifically tailored against WS.

But I forgot, I'm in the internet, where one is either totally right or completely wrong. Mostly the others being wrong and oneself being right. No room for discussion?

 Murenius wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
It seems like a poor spam list beat by a tailored list. Which, I mean, yeah. If you tailor to beat a list and beat the list, good job?

You kinda missed the point. It's simply that people are stating things in threads on this board like "If WS are fielded, you better surrender". I also pointed out that it is not about competitive solutions. Just that when you're encountering WS spam a lot in your local environment, you might get back to having fun with the game if you add something to your list specifically tailored against WS.

But I forgot, I'm in the internet, where one is either totally right or completely wrong. Mostly the others being wrong and oneself being right. No room for discussion?

The fact that you list-tailored renders any value in further discussion irrelevant.

I cannot think of any unit or list that couldn't be killed with an equivalent amount of points if the person knew in advance what they would be facing and designed their force to beat it.

That Serpent spam can be beaten isn't a surprise, the issue remains that it is surprisingly effective against many TAC lists, and remarkably resilient against an equal number.

Going out of your way to design a list to beat it brings nothing new to the discussion.

You can always win if you tailor your list to beat a list that isnt tailored back. Either you both tailor, or no one tailors. Only way to ensure a fair fight in which things can then be considered.

You cant say wave serpents arent strong because someone can design a list to kill them. Well good luck if he has to fight a horde next after bringing his anti Serpent Spam army.

It doesnt quite work the way you put it.

I often do this as well, though I take my opponent's army and play with it as is. It's a great way to learn something new about the game and other armies.

Last time, it was against a mate's CSM. We both had our opponents not show up, so we played against each other instead. Thing was, he brought a fluffy foot list with a squad of Termies, Hellbrutes and footslogging Plague Marines. I brought a fast, elusive army with bike troops, Spiders, Hawks, Shining Spears and two Wave Serpents with full DA squads inside. So nothing too cheesy, but against that CSM list, we didn't even have to play, especially as he's one of the younger guys here, a cool dude, just needs a bit more practice. So I offered to switch armies and we did.

His CSM wiped the floor with my Eldar. Basically his target priority was off and he sacrificed Wave Serpents to kill off my Prince, which while much more expensive, was well worth his loss of mobility. In the end, he conceded that Eldar may seem easy to play, but they're far from it. You need to be aware of the entire 3 phases of the game, plus the Psychic phase now. Of course, after you get a general grasp with them, they're easier to win with than most armies, but they're not easier to play.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is, unless he was already an Eldar player, he probably lost because he couldn't comprehend the mobility and the overwhelming firepower that makes Eldar so (rightfully) feared. It takes a few games to get that, as no other army comes close (except flyers, which are also quite limited in maneuverability, unlike Eldar who have it all), bar DE. Sometimes, when playing Eldar for the first few times, the notion that something can move 48" a turn is kinda hard to grasp.

I had something similar to that in 5th edition with GK. I let him build an GK army, and then I ran nids. I won.

Wave serpents are still crazy stupid good though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be fair, in my case, they were both my armies, but the power levels of the two are often said to be asymmetric.

Before I played 40k, I played Warmahordes. When Gargants came out, I could kill them. But I couldn't play the way I wanted to and still have a chance. I won many more games than I lost against them, but they still ruined the game for me.

Most people who want to play CSM don't want to just bunker up Havoks.

You know what the problem is with Wave Serpents? People have them. I had 3, when the new codex dropped, I sold 2 because I wanted to get some other nice items and avoid playing the same army I've been playing for the past 2 years. Back then, mechdar was the only way to compete with Eldar (I got into 40k just after 4th finished, so got the short end of the stick, as that was the only 2 years that Eldar actually weren't at the top).

Basically, since they were our saving grace in 5th, people had them when the codex dropped and started fielding them en masse, cackling gleefully that they're now back on the top of the food chain. Thing is, this caused Serpent spam to be the most played cutthroat competitive build outside tournaments and why it has such a bad reputation among players in general. In a tournament, vs other highly competitive armies, Serpent spam is top tier, but it's not unbeatable by any means.

EDIT: This is my guess and my experience, of course there may be other factors why it's so popular outside of tournaments and why other highly competitive armies aren't.

I think Salamanders with melta guns in drop pods could be very effective against serpent spam while still maintaining flexibility against other armies.

They did work before 7th brought first-turn Jink to the table. And first turn, they'll have their shields on too, guaranteed.

 Araenion wrote:
They did work before 7th brought first-turn Jink to the table. And first turn, they'll have their shields on too, guaranteed.

If you're willing to risk scatter, you could drop behind the serpents.

Not if they keep their backs to the wall.

...or the board edge, in this case.

 Araenion wrote:
They did work before 7th brought first-turn Jink to the table. And first turn, they'll have their shields on too, guaranteed.

You mean the jink that requires them to snap fire?

For one or two pods, I would be thrilled to have you jink them serpents.

I'm really looking forward to the new SW codex. Grey Hunter packs in Stormfangs combined with Alpha striking DP Grey Hunters should be able to avoid heavy first turn shooting and close the gap quickly.

It doesn't count if you list tailor it. If you knew every single nuance of the opposing player's list, codex creep doesn't really matter when you can take hard counters to everything.

What would have been reasonable and fair is if you played the exact same mission with the exact same terrain and exact same armies.

High school science, dude.

i would like to comment on the threads topic, but i stopped reading when you said you put ahriman in the rhino with the PMs. can't do that my friend.

 zachwho wrote:
i would like to comment on the threads topic, but i stopped reading when you said you put ahriman in the rhino with the PMs. can't do that my friend.

Hm, now that you mention it... Tzeentch - Nurgle. Funnily enough my opponent claimed it wasn't possible since he thought Ahriman had Termi armor. Guess after showing him that it's power armor I forgot about the gods. Doesn't invalidate anything, to correct this I just take 5-9 vanilla marines in a Rhino.

And if this keeps you from commenting on a whole other topic I think I am glad you didn't.

You tailored a list to beat the serpent spam. Frankly that was a pretty meaningless game you then played.

All you proved is any common netlist has a counter to it - which is already common knowledge.

And you added a pointless comment to a thread of which you did not understand the intention. Still you posted. So all you proved is... nothing

The point of this thread was not providing a solution to every WS spam list. The point was to suggest a way to vent off steam and get some fun back from the game from people who are so frustrated they might even give up the game.

But understanding that difficile difference is too much asked from many people, apparently. Hail the internet.

 Murenius wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
It seems like a poor spam list beat by a tailored list. Which, I mean, yeah. If you tailor to beat a list and beat the list, good job?

But I forgot, I'm in the internet, where one is either totally right or completely wrong. Mostly the others being wrong and oneself being right. No room for discussion?

Yes, and literally every person is telling you that your experiment design was flawed

But you list Taoilored in your second game...

OFC a WS cant hurt a LR.... Even if its the inferior CSM one. The problem people have with WSs in general is that in a TAC list they over perform and are relatively cheap for the support they bring with 0 downsides.

Unless you are going to a tournament and are TOLD by some magical being who can see the future, that your opponent will be bringing 4-5 WSs you're probably not going to be equip to deal with them. That's why I think the concept of list tailoring exists and people hate it. But also why people hate WSs.

Sure you can run around in every game thinking your opponent is going to tote around 5 WSs, but then you waste everything else on LCs and high str single shot models. So.... Yeah.