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I am now roo drunk to have a chorent response.

But no

Just so that I am clear.

The following two rules do absolutely nothing.

A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod cannot charge in the turn it arrives. (Codex Space Marine, page 99, last sentence of Drop Pod Assault)

Deep striking units may not move any farther, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport. (Deep Strike rules, page unknown)

Am - I'll believe it when you can point to where you have followed the "arriving from deep strike" rules, which start by you placing a model from the LotD unit on the table, and going from there. You have yet to prove that.

Happy - essentially, unless you disagree that disembarking from a ds vehicle means you are automatically a ds unit

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Am - I'll believe it when you can point to where you have followed the "arriving from deep strike" rules, which start by you placing a model from the LotD unit on the table, and going from there. You have yet to prove that.

Happy - essentially, unless you disagree that disembarking from a ds vehicle means you are automatically a ds unit

I agree that the act of disembarkation does not make the unit a ds unit, however, I do believe that a unit embarked in a transport that has arrived via DS, are also arriving via DS. Otherwise those two rules do absolutely nothing.

In which case they need to follow the rules for arriving by DS...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
In which case they need to follow the rules for arriving by DS...

Which they have, by being place in DS Reserve and arriving by DS in a Pod.

There's a few more rules for Deep Striking than that.

*If a transport is Outflanking, the troops inside are also Outflanking.

*If a transport is Scouting, the troops inside are also Scouting.

*If a transport is coming in from Reserve, the troops inside are also coming in from Reserve.

*If a transport is Deep Striking, the troops inside are also Deep Striking.


This is because they are inside the transport as shown in the quotes in my previous post.

points 2 and 4 don't actually have rules saying so.

infact point 4 has rules stating that transports that are deep striking do not give deep strike to the units embarked, and only units with deep strike may deep strike. Which leads to the comment that troops on an embarked transport using the RAW from the BRB are not deep striking.

xAndurilx wrote:
*If a transport is Outflanking, the troops inside are also Outflanking.

*If a transport is Scouting, the troops inside are also Scouting.

*If a transport is coming in from Reserve, the troops inside are also coming in from Reserve.

*If a transport is Deep Striking, the troops inside are also Deep Striking.


This is because they are inside the transport as shown in the quotes in my previous post.

No, your posts do not state that.

Again, you have been specifically asked, more than once, to provide a rule stating that despite NOT following the rules for arriving by ds, they have actually used the rules for ds. Staring with an exemption got not placing the first model.

Oh, and two is wrong. See ork scouting battle wagon formation.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

No, your posts do not state that.

Again, you have been specifically asked, more than once, to provide a rule stating that despite NOT following the rules for arriving by ds, they have actually used the rules for ds. Staring with an exemption got not placing the first model.

Oh, and two is wrong. See ork scouting battle wagon formation.

I have provided solid RAW data many many times over that supports the claim that a unit enters play by Deep Strike with their Pod.
No one has yet quoted me a rule that says that this does not happen without running into contradiction, paraphrasing or their own interpretation.
Burden of proof is on the naysayers... with exact quotes saying that this does not happen.

The issue is the people who have quoted RAW that it does not, have quoted the contradictory raw that it does.

Saying you are right because you are only quoting the rule stating it does, and ignoring the rules stating it doesn't isnt useful.

Regardless, the models inside the transport, are they following the rules for arriving by deep strike, yes or no?

in reference to legion of the damned:

The Legion of the Damned do not benefit from Chapter Tactics and their units cannot be joined by Independent Characters. They always start the game in reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike. When they arrive by Deep Strike, you may re-roll the Scatter dice if you wish.

arriving by deep strike has VERY specific rules.

the legion of the damned are not following those rules if they are in a drop pod, and their rule states they always follow those rules.

How far does the Legion of the damned unit scatter when its embarked in the drop pod?

blaktoof wrote:
The issue is the people who have quoted RAW that it does not, have quoted the contradictory raw that it does.

Saying you are right because you are only quoting the rule stating it does, and ignoring the rules stating it doesn't isnt useful.

Regardless, the models inside the transport, are they following the rules for arriving by deep strike, yes or no?

in reference to legion of the damned:

The Legion of the Damned do not benefit from Chapter Tactics and their units cannot be joined by Independent Characters. They always start the game in reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike. When they arrive by Deep Strike, you may re-roll the Scatter dice if you wish.

arriving by deep strike has VERY specific rules.

the legion of the damned are not following those rules if they are in a drop pod, and their rule states they always follow those rules.

How far does the Legion of the damned unit scatter when its embarked in the drop pod?

LoD scatters as far as the Drop Pod does which is arriving by deepstrike with the units in it.
Thus the LoD inside the Pod are also arriving by deepstrike and fulfill that requirement.
It completely covers the RAW requirement.

Assuming the above was correct, which it is not because no such Rule exists so it can never be 'Written Rule support' for this concept:

What happens if they decide to Re-roll, does the transport still scatters the original direction and distance?
Do they mishap if the Pod scatters on top of a friendly Unit, seeing they do not have a Rule stating to reduce the distance and still go the full length?
What about the Transport, does that count as scattering onto a friendly Unit given they are always two separate Units for Rule purposes?
Do they get to evoke the Disembarking Rules still, rubber banding them back to the transport if they land elsewhere?

JinxDragon wrote:
Assuming the above was correct, which it is not because no such Rule exists so it can never be 'Written Rule support' for this concept:

What happens if they decide to Re-roll, does the transport still scatters the original direction and distance?
Do they mishap if the Pod scatters on top of a friendly Unit, seeing they do not have a Rule stating to reduce the distance and still go the full length?
What about the Transport, does that count as scattering onto a friendly Unit given they are always two separate Units for Rule purposes?
Do they get to evoke the Disembarking Rules still, rubber banding them back to the transport if they land elsewhere?

Great questions.
They would not re-roll scatter as they are arriving by Deep Strike through the Drop Pod.
They use Inertial Guidance, since they are arriving by Deep Strike through the Drop Pod - like any other embarked unit.
Disembarking per Transport Capacity rules of the Drop Pod.

And the rules are written Jinx: they are arriving by deepstrike through the Drop Pod, but this still fulfills the "arrive by Deep Strike" requirement.

Where in the drop pod Rules does it state it's Special Rules confer to the Embarked Unit, or the Unit's Special Rules confer to it?

JinxDragon wrote:
Where in the drop pod Rules does it state it's Special Rules confer to the Embarked Unit, or the Unit's Special Rules confer to it?

It doesnt - but it doesnt need too.

They are both deployed in Deep Strike Reserve and LOD arrive by Deepstrike through the Pod.
This fulfills the need to "arrive by Deepstrike".

xAndurilx wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Where in the drop pod Rules does it state it's Special Rules confer to the Embarked Unit, or the Unit's Special Rules confer to it?

It doesnt - but it doesnt need too.

They are both deployed in Deep Strike Reserve and LOD arrive by Deepstrike through the Pod.
This fulfills the need to "arrive by Deepstrike".

I agree. They clearly are placed in Deep Strike Reserve along with the Drop Pod and arrive via Deep Strike along wit the Drop Pod. This fulfills the requirement that they arrive via Deep Strike.

There are two ways to arrive via Deep Strike... By Deep Striking directly or by arriving in a Deep Striking vehicle.

It doesn't need to state that we have permission to confer a Special Rule from one Unit to another?

The unit inside doesn't need to have the Deep Strike rule to have arrived via Deep Strike. The unit can just arrive in a Deep Striking vehicle.

If you have a unit inside a Drop Pod and you contend that the unit isn't arriving via Deep Strike, then how is the unit entering play? It's not being deployed, not infiltrating, not outflanking, not walking on...

It's arriving via Deep Strike from Deep Strike Reserves.

Kriswall,
There are actually a more ways, some which specifically do not use the Arrive via Deep Strike Rule and can not fall under 'Arriving on a Deep Striking Vehicle.' Yet these Units still end up with permission to Disembark from a Vehicle or be placed on the field in something other then the method described in the Arriving Via Deep Strike Rule. These situations have less access to the Rules being quoted here to suggest that a Embarked Unit Arrives Via Deep Strike 'inside' it's Transport, in some cases they are not even Embarked Units till they suddenly 'Disembark.' Even those 'Disembarking' instruction type are nothing more then specific instructions to place the models in a certain way, they tend to count as Disembarked afterwards.

I state they are not Deep Striking at all, but have Permission to simply Arrive through Disembarking. The only issue is the requirement to Arrive Via Deep Strike that is placed on the Unit when it is put into Deep Strike Reserve, but that can be circumvented and actually has Rule as Written support. All it would take is to create the right conflict and have the must use Deep Strike Rule stricken from the situation, allowing the Unit to arrive through any method. Any Special Rule which grants access to the Disembarking method, or creates any alternative method beside those that simply modify the existing sequence, can create that conflict.

Rule as Written support:
The Unit is placed into Deep Strike Reserve
A Special Rule in any Codex forces the Unit to be 'placed on the table' in a specific manor
This creates the conflict, as the Basic Rulebook Deep Striking Special Rule states the Unit must Arrive Via Deep Strike and this is not Arriving Via Deep Strike
Codex is greater then Rulebook, Unit in Deep Strike Reserve loose the Requirement to 'Arrive Via Deep Strike' and no longer Must Evoke the Deep Strike Rule to leave Reserve
Unit is placed via the more non-Deep Strike Rule, as required by it's more advanced instructions

Therefore this does not count as Arriving Via Deep Strike, as none of the Deep Strike Rules are used and it would be illegal to even try and evoke anything found within the Deep Strike Special Rule.

How would this work in the context of a Lucius Pattern Drop Pod where I'm not required to disembark immediately? The Dreadnaught inside is clearly no longer in Reserves, but has not yet disembarked. It's arriving onto the table along with the Drop Pod. It's most certainly no longer in Reserves. I don't see how you can say a model is arriving from reserves when it disembarks.

I agree with Kriswall.

I don't believe that the "Deep Strike" special rule and the term "Arriving via Deep Strike" are mutually exclusive. And that is because disembarking is not a form of arrival. When you roll for reserves you don't roll for just the transport, you roll for the attached unit as well (dedicated transports for all intents and purposes count as part of that units forceorg choice) and therefore would be bringing the entire unit, including the transport, from reserves. If that entire unit must be placed in the "Deep Strike Reserves" section purely based on the fact that the DT has Deep Strike then the unit is also "Arriving via Deep Strike" even though the unit doesn't have the rule. And if you must declare that the unit and DT are "Arriving via Deep Strike" to your opponent is that not permission to allow that unit, regardless of the special rule, to "Arrive via Deep Strike"?

Understandable as you are missing the point:
The Special Rule forces the Unit to be placed on the table in a specific way, the most common being something which uses the Disembarking method or states it counts as having Disembarked after the fact. It is not the act of Disembarking that is causing the Unit to Arrive from Reserve, it is the permission to be placed using something other then the Deep Strike Special Rule. This creates a conflict, and as long as that conflict allows something other then the Deep Strike Special Rule's "Must" to succeed it allows the Deep Strike Special Rule to be avoided entirely.

In the case of the Lucus Drop-pod, can you post the actual Rule itself so I can verify some things as I don't even know which Forgeworld book has the latest version let alone if I have it seeing that is not common material for me.

I agree with Kriswall too

We've been over complicating this.

Its very simple.
They are deployed in deep strike reserve and enter play by deep strike through the drop pod.

Written Rules are never simple
Unless they state they are simple
Even then, they are never simple

Simple in this case would of been the Authors penning a sentence to state that a Embarked Unit counts as having Arrives via the same method as it's transport....

JinxDragon wrote:
Written Rules are never simple
Unless they state they are simple

I can agree with that.
Well played

The more this goes on the more I just wish I could go back in time and slap whomever penned the Arriving from Reserve section before reminding them to add a simple count as clause to give your side something to Evoke as Rule Support!
They obviously intended it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Want to know the most frustrating thing about this all, in the long run I am simply trying to get to the very same spot you are. I am simply not comfortable stating that it is 'Rule as Written' when the best we have is several pieces of circumstantial Rules that suggest the Embarked Unit counts as having Arrived via Deep Strike with the Transport. All that Rule Lawyer behavour exploiting loopholes as well as clauses, and in general simply making things far more complicated, is what I feel is necessary to fill the gap found in this series of Rules. The only thing that is lost is the ability to call it 'Arriving Via Deep Strike' and one or two Rules that trigger off that, Rules which never made any sense because they either applied already existing Restrictions or over-wrote Restrictions that didn't exist.

In the end, the Unit Disembarking from the Deep Striking Transport does exactly the same thing as if it counts as having Arrived in the same manor as the Transport.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I went out of my way to find what looks like the latest book and there is a few very interesting things of note with the Lucius Drop Pod. The primary here is that it's Drop Pod Assault Rule contains a great deal more instructions then the other, and I do not just mean the requirement to extend the doors fully which puts a different argument to rest. It also contains instructions that the Unit purchased for this Transport, a single Dreadnought, must be deployed inside the Transport. Not Embarked on or in the Transport like other Rules have, but that it must be physically deployed inside of the Transport which is sized to fit them. This creates the before mentioned conflicted, it is not being placed on the table through the instructions found in the Deep Strike Rules but deployed using more specific 'Codex' Special Rules, and thus it is granted permission to Arrive via other methods then Deep Strike.

It does have the side effect of having a Unit that is an a state of 'Deployed on the Table' and Embarked in the Transport at the same time, but while we can laugh that would be a problem anyway thanks to the format used in the Rules. As that Rule literally states to Deploy the model inside the Lucius, we have no choice but to deploy said model inside the Lucius as part of the Rules for the Lucius' Arrival. Because we have a requirement to physically deploy one Unit inside of another, so we end up with one Unit physically inside of another and all the problems that creates.

We thought the Authors have problem coming to actions in three dimensions, how well do the Rules deal with a 4th dimension of distance?

In any case:
Lucius has permission to Deploy the Dreadnought, create the conflict and remove the Must Deep Strike Requirement that is giving you problems.

Anyone else have an issue with Lotd arriving via SW drop pods cos its just a million miles away from the fluff? sod all the RAW and RAI Its just plain heresy lol

xAndurilx wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

No, your posts do not state that.

Again, you have been specifically asked, more than once, to provide a rule stating that despite NOT following the rules for arriving by ds, they have actually used the rules for ds. Staring with an exemption got not placing the first model.

Oh, and two is wrong. See ork scouting battle wagon formation.

I have provided solid RAW data many many times over that supports the claim that a unit enters play by Deep Strike with their Pod.
No one has yet quoted me a rule that says that this does not happen without running into contradiction, paraphrasing or their own interpretation.
Burden of proof is on the naysayers... with exact quotes saying that this does not happen.

No, you have provided a rule stating they are to arrive by deepstrike.

Arrive by deepstrike requires you to, firstly, place a model from the unit that is arriving in the position you would like the unit that is arriving to turn up.

Please show, page and para, where you have complied with this requirement.

Further refusal to provide rules support, for the third time of asking, is proof that you have conceded the argument.