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Late to the party but i will agree with Nos here.

Most of the discussion is based on this line:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one." (Special rules chapter, Deep Strike section).

Somehow implying that the embarked unit is also Deep-Striking.

But they are not deep striking, as has been proved, because you are not placing the models and scattering the models.(etc.)

In the exact same way that Scouting Transports do not make embarked units Scout, Deep Striking Transports do not make embarked units Deep Strike (Tactical Squad does not have DS)

The line above has 2 definitions:
A) Unit is DS and may not move further
B) Unit is in a DS transport and may disembark

Notice how the unit in B) does not need the DS rule, and has not followed any of the DS rule. It could have charged if it had not been in reserves for example...

I think at this point we can lock this thread. We're just going in circles. Neither side will back down.

@BlackTalos: it it's more than just that one line. There is also a line in C:SM, Drop Pod Assault, which refers to the embarked unit as deep striking.

I would also like to point out that if a unit must follow all the Deep Strike rules in order to be Deep Striking, numerous other rules would break, such as Veil of Darkness.

I will need to take a closer look at Veil of Darkness situation when I get home but so far the 'problem situations' have all contained instructions involving the placement of the Models in question. Once that conflict occurs we have Rule as Written permission to ignore one set of instructions in favor of another, assuming we are trying to apply what the book describes as the more advanced Rule. That would allow us to by-pass the Requirements for a Unit in 'Deep Strike Reserve' to utilize the Deep Strike Rule when Arriving, by allowing the Unit to Arrive through some other non-Deep Strike related method, and therefore the Unit does not Arrive via Deep Strike.

The unit inside the pod "must be held in reserve and must enter play using the deepstrike rules"; but under the pod rules, the transport capacity modifies the rules for placement as disembarking.
The problem isn't with Legion of the Damned, it is with drop pods.
If the unit inside must be placed and scattered, then drop pods cease to function properly.

Take LotD out of the equation for a moment.
I have 10 tactical marines in a pod.
How do I place them on the table when they arrive turn 1?
They are deep striking via the pod.
They must be held in reserve.
They must enter play using the Deep Strike rules.
They must immediately disembark when the pod lands.

This is all on page 99 of C:Space Marines.

The problem is that RAW, we aren't told how to fulfill both the Deep Strike and disembark requirement for the passengers.

 Happyjew wrote:
I think at this point we can lock this thread. We're just going in circles. Neither side will back down.

@BlackTalos: it it's more than just that one line. There is also a line in C:SM, Drop Pod Assault, which refers to the embarked unit as deep striking.

I would also like to point out that if a unit must follow all the Deep Strike rules in order to be Deep Striking, numerous other rules would break, such as Veil of Darkness.

I would point out that i am not ruling out "count as" Deep Striking (and i'm quite sure the Veil of Darkness follows most of the DS rules - with modifications in the rule - so why would it not be Deep Striking?) but the fact that we cannot say that the embarked Unit has DS or not.

The Tactical squad in the example above has not, and cannot be Deep Striking in any way, it doesn't have the USR.

I agree that this is a lot more of a Transport/ Drop pod debate on Deep Striking rather than anything to do with LotD (but will ultimately apply to them)

If you can (with rules support) explain to me how a Tactical Squad arrives via Deep Strike, i'd happily agree with the rest?

The only way I can see this getting resolved at this point is to have just one question answered: Does a unit disembarking from a DS transport count as having "arrived via Deep Strike"?

I'm at a point where I feel a bit of both sides have merit right now. Mainly because I know the rules never state that they have arrived via deep strike, but they also never say that they haven't either, nor have they said that they arrive by any other means. And so, without having that question answered, I feel that the question must be answered, for the time being, on a case by case basis between opponents

I still believe what I said earlier, but that is my opinion.

I know the raw advocates won't like this but for these kinds of situations you need to ask yourself do you think this is what GW intended. IMO no. If you feel the same then trying to justify using the pod is an explicit exercise in bending the rules.

 DeGradation wrote:
The only way I can see this getting resolved at this point is to have just one question answered: Does a unit disembarking from a DS transport count as having "arrived via Deep Strike"?

I'm at a point where I feel a bit of both sides have merit right now. Mainly because I know the rules never state that they have arrived via deep strike, but they also never say that they haven't either, nor have they said that they arrive by any other means. And so, without having that question answered, I feel that the question must be answered, for the time being, on a case by case basis between opponents

I think that the question you have put forward is a very brief summary of what was asked in the very first post, and what everyone has been circling around one way or the other.

I can answer that question for you:
Does a unit disembarking from a DS transport count as having "arrived via Deep Strike"?
No, it does not. They only count as being "embarked"


It will not end the debate, because that is exactly the topic of the debate....

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I know the raw advocates won't like this but for these kinds of situations you need to ask yourself do you think this is what GW intended. IMO no. If you feel the same then trying to justify using the pod is an explicit exercise in bending the rules.

The issue with that is, we do not have any idea how GW intended it.

We can not read their minds, so we have to go by what is written in the rules and assume they intended the rules in the book to work how they wrote them to work. (Or not work in some cases).

Probably not, because the unit deep strikes, not the transport.

HawaiiMatt,
The existence of a conflict between two of the Musts, both requiring placing Models in a different way, grant us permission to ignore one depending on which is most advanced.
So why can we not state that this is permission to ignore the requirement to Arrive using the Deep Strike Rules?
It just isn't possible to state this Arrival is 'Arriving via Deep Strike,' but seeing as Arriving via Deep Strike is no longer required it doesn't cause issues.

JinxDragon wrote:
HawaiiMatt,
The existence of a conflict between two of the Musts, both requiring placing Models in a different way, grant us permission to ignore one depending on which is most advanced.
So why can we not state that this is permission to ignore the requirement to Arrive using the Deep Strike Rules?
It just isn't possible to state this Arrival is 'Arriving via Deep Strike,' but seeing as Arriving via Deep Strike is no longer required it doesn't cause issues.

I had not noticed "must enter play using the deepstrike rules" in the Drop Pod rules.

And as you say, it would seem very hard if not impossible to perform "that must" as they would have to be placed (in B2B etc) outside the drop pod at the same time? Or is there another way to enter play using the DS rules?

BlackTalos,
It is simply the existence of other Must's in the equation that matter. That Must forces the player to immediately place the Models in the manor known as 'Disembarking' the moment the Drop Pod finishes deployment, making it impossible to place those same Models board with method known as Arriving Via Deep Strike. As we now have two Rules requiring the Models to be placed in different ways we have access to the ability to eliminate one, and this makes it possible to Arrive without Deep Striking even in situations where one Must Deep Strike. Interestingly, this interpretation not only makes it legal to simply 'Disembark' like everyone has already been doing but it actually makes the insane alternative of "place and scatter the Embarked" illegal.

Deleted. Moved to PM.

The problem is... there are several rules that IMPLY that a unit in a deep striking vehicle counts as having arrived by Deep Strike. But there is no rule that flat out says they do. Just like there is no rule to say whether a unit emparked on a scouting vehicle count as having scouted prior to the game.


This leaves us with a very clear RAI for what should happen, but without enough RAW support to make the rules lawyers happy. Though I do provide one challenge: If arriving via a DSing vehicle does not count as DS... Can anyone provide an example of a unit that both Deep strikes, and emerges from a deep striking vehicle?

Because if not the intent of the often quoted

"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

Has absolutely no purpose.

I admit there is no hard and fast RAW answer, but the Intent seems very clear.

We've already pointed out that, currently, it serves no purpose.

Dreadnaught in a Lucius Drop Pod is a close contender for some of it. Within the Pod's Rules for arriving are instructions that the Dreadnaught is "Deployed inside" the Transport as part of the said Arrival process. As that arrival process is using the Arriving by Deep Strike sequence, though modified by the more advanced Rules which the Dreadnought are part of, any Models placed by that process will meet the criteria to be considered having arrived by Deep Strike. Putting aside the curiosity of having instructions to place a Model physically inside of another, at least the Model does fit, the 'pointless Rule' in question would grant the Dreadnaught permission to move the turn the Drop Pod Arrived as long as it Disembarks as part of that movement.

It does leave the Dreadnaught in this strange position of being physically on the table while still Embarked, but I am not the person whom wrote the Rules so it is not my fault.

Okay, Think I may have something that at least will clarify what the RAI should have been.

Now, when coming on from regular reserves, under the "Arriving from Reserve" section, the unit moves onto the table from the controlling players side in a movement up to it's maximum distance. This would be considered it's move during that movement phase. The units are not able to assault, use abilities or special rules, but should still be able to fire in the shooting phase after they arrive from reserves. All models in the unit, even if embarked on a transport, are considered to have arrived together.

Then looking at the "Embarking and Disembarking" rules, as long as the transport has not moved more than 6" in it's movement the units may disembark and move as normal, manifest psy powers and shoot or run in the shooting phase, but may not assault.

So, with those rules in mind, if a unit embarked on a DS transport are not considered to have DS, then the units should be able to make it's regular movement, but not manifest psy powers and assault in the same turn but still be able to attack in the shooting phase. But we must also observe that a transport and it's embarked unit coming on from reserves, DS reserves or otherwise, are considered to have arrived together, presumably, by the same method.

So in conclusion, based on these rules, I say that a unit of Legion of the Damned may utilize a Drop Pod, Deep Striking Land Raider, Rhino/Razorback to arrive by Deep Strike while embarked on the transport. But I might add, I still miss the reason for the Drop Pod considering the LotD unit already has DS special rule. What does the Drop Pod offer that the unit doesn't already have?

Correct me if anything seems wrong. To be honest I am incredibly new to the game.

chanceafs wrote:
Because if not the intent of the often quoted

"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

Has absolutely no purpose.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Late to the party but i will agree with Nos here.

Most of the discussion is based on this line:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one." (Special rules chapter, Deep Strike section).

Somehow implying that the embarked unit is also Deep-Striking.

The line above has 2 definitions:
A) Unit is DS and may not move further
B) Unit is in a DS transport and may disembark

Notice how the unit in B) does not need the DS rule, and has not followed any of the DS rule. It could have charged if it had not been in reserves for example...

 BlackTalos wrote:

chanceafs wrote:
Because if not the intent of the often quoted

"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

Has absolutely no purpose.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Late to the party but i will agree with Nos here.

Most of the discussion is based on this line:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one." (Special rules chapter, Deep Strike section).

Somehow implying that the embarked unit is also Deep-Striking.

The line above has 2 definitions:
A) Unit is DS and may not move further
B) Unit is in a DS transport and may disembark

Notice how the unit in B) does not need the DS rule, and has not followed any of the DS rule. It could have charged if it had not been in reserves for example...

Except part B does literally nothing for units in a Deep Striking vehicle that didn't deep strike themselves. The way it is worded it only refers to Deep Striking units that wish to disembark from a Deep Striking transport.. If no such unit exists, than that part of the rule does nothing.

If a Deep striking vehicle was constrained to "Deep Striking units may not move any further", then Disembarking (Part of the movement phase) would not be allowed.

If the rule was simply:
""In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further"
Then Drop Pods (and any other Deep Striking transport) would not be able to Embark/Disembark at all.

So they add a portion of the rule, an exception to the rule above:
"other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."

So if you have a unit (that is not Deep Striking, does not have the DS rule, etc...) in a Transport that arrived by Deep Strike, then they have the RaW allowance to disembark.

Notice that if you deep strike a transport, you would not be allowed by RaW to embark upon it, even if you are a unit that was already on the board and right next to it. The only allowance of the movement phase for *anything* Deep Striking is Disembarking

Except that's not what the rule says... it is referring to the unit disembarking as the Deep Striking unit, not the vehicle. Thus it is not giving the vehicle any permissions. The vehicle can move no further. And nothing in the wording of that rule provides any exception to that. The phrase "other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one." The word 'They' can only refer back to the subject of the first part of the sentence sentence, namely a deep striking unit. Therefor, unless the unit inside the vehicle also counts as having deep struck (whether or not it had the rule itself), it is given no permission by that phrase to do anything.

The Deep Striking Unit cannot be a vehicle? Please explain this further?

The wording of that rule gives permission for a Deep Striking unit to disembark from a deep striking transport. Unless both units count as having deep struck the rule does not apply.

Sorry, not trying to be snarky, but if you were Deep Striking a vehicle that is not a transport, the line quoted would still apply.

That rule can indeed apply to a vehicle, and thus the "other than" exception would apply to the vehicle and it's passengers.

"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking unitS may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one."
So cutting short and dry:

If it is just 1 unit (Vehicle/Infantry/...), then only "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further" applies.
If you have 2 units (Infantry+Transport) then the rest of the rule applies. The rule applies to both, but it has been proven that the Embarked unit cannot be Deep Stricking, it is simply Disembarking.

If you Deep Struck with an Assault Transport, and the embarked Unit was not in reserves, it would be allowed to charge imo.
Land Raider crusader with Monolith Portal arriving by Deep Strike would not limit any charging capacity from a "displaced" unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chanceafs wrote:
The wording of that rule gives permission for a Deep Striking unit to disembark from a deep striking transport. Unless both units count as having deep struck the rule does not apply.

Would put it a different way:
"The wording of that rule gives permission for a Deep Striking unit to disembark from a deep striking transport.

Rule still applies and lets you disembark when that line would otherwise not allow you to.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Late to the party but i will agree with Nos here.

Most of the discussion is based on this line:
"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one." (Special rules chapter, Deep Strike section).

Somehow implying that the embarked unit is also Deep-Striking.

But they are not deep striking, as has been proved, because you are not placing the models and scattering the models.(etc.)

In the exact same way that Scouting Transports do not make embarked units Scout, Deep Striking Transports do not make embarked units Deep Strike (Tactical Squad does not have DS)

The line above has 2 definitions:
A) Unit is DS and may not move further


B) Unit is in a DS transport and may disembark

Notice how the unit in B) does not need the DS rule, and has not followed any of the DS rule. It could have charged if it had not been in reserves for example...

You actually quoted it.

In the movement phase during which they arrive, Deep striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport if they are in one.

Change deep striking unit to legion of the damned.

In the movement phase during which they arrive, Legion of the Damned Squads may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking transport if they are in one.

How can you claim someone quoted and ignored the Rule when you have to change the body of said Rule yourself?

JinxDragon wrote:
How can you claim someone quoted and ignored the Rule when you have to change the body of said Rule yourself?

Would you say there's no real difference between saying a deep strike unit and legion of the damned?

I know a huge part of this argument is that LotD have to deep strike, and riding in the transport is not the same.

I fail to see it that way. They're a unit drop pod and troops until it lands and the unit disembarks.

They're both deep striking. The only difference is that the pod has a special rule that allows the unit inside to move (disembark) upon landing.

But both the unit and the drop pod are both deep striking. I just think there's too many people in this game that read into the rules too hard just for arguments sake.

I am not talking about the interpenetration you are supporting, I have addressed that three pages back and allow it to be a good grounds for an 'Authors Intent' argument, but honest puzzlement of your post. I am reading it with an accusatory tone, with how it opens up by stating 'You Quoted It' and then has no actual support other then to point back to the actual quote as if it should be self-explanatory. The real thing about the post that makes me scratch my head is that the opening sentence does not make any sense, for the rest of the 'explanation' involves modifying the sentences.

How can someone be at fault for problem with the direct quote, when the 'explanation' prevents it being a direct quote afterwards?

There is something I do have to request at this point:
Written Rules require specific permissions to do any action, so on what page do I find the instructions for going about swapping out Proper Names, Terminologies and Sequences?

Given how important the actual sentence structure is to Written Rules themselves no one should be asked to blindly accept an argument based on the concept that we can re-write the Rules to better fit the situation, which will of course be bias towards our own personal interpenetration of the events. Of course changing the subject matter will resolve this problem, but so does simply stating 'of course they are Deep Striking' and ignoring it all together. Just because it makes the problem go away doesn't mean there is any Rule as Written support for what is being done.

Jinx - you seem to agree with intent but are not won over by the word of the rules.

Lets simplify this:

We are playing with plastic figures.
For instance, they do not actually "shoot" their weapons per the definition of the word "shoot".
However, it is implied that we "pretend that they are shooting" as we know they are not really shooting.

No where in the rules does it actually say that we are to pretend they are shooting - yet it is implied

40k is entirely based on intent.
This may be a dramatic oversimplification, yet I hope the point is clear.

From you own words, it appears to be intended that the unit is deep striking along with the transport.