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This is an often problem with Tournaments, around my way as well, this game is designed to have a lot of terrain, that is sooo vital when dealing with high volume shooters like that, and I would bet if you re-did that battle with appreciate terrain Ur wolves would have shown you how good they are. Sense that is Ur Meta, then you will have to plan for it. And Grey hunters in pods don’t just die; they distract and pull fire away from the TWC if that is how you are using the TWC. But yah couple of wolves and an IP is super helpful too. Also IIRC in 7th isn’t it still majority T is used, so those wolves would be like trying to wound a TWC that’s full of win in my world

GH in pods are durable if you support them, but I'd hesitate to take less than the maximum in a pod (8 and TDA or 10 in PA) and you do need at least two squads landing on T1 for maximum usefulness.

 Paradigm wrote:
GH in pods are durable if you support them, but I'd hesitate to take less than the maximum in a pod (8 and TDA or 10 in PA) and you do need at least two squads landing on T1 for maximum usefulness.

At least two squads? Half the pods come down turn one...

Super Newb wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
GH in pods are durable if you support them, but I'd hesitate to take less than the maximum in a pod (8 and TDA or 10 in PA) and you do need at least two squads landing on T1 for maximum usefulness.

At least two squads? Half the pods come down turn one...

Use at least three, Putting Axe/Storm Shield Dread or Murderfang in one will also cause your opponent to sweat for a turn or two till he shows up

Super Newb wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
GH in pods are durable if you support them, but I'd hesitate to take less than the maximum in a pod (8 and TDA or 10 in PA) and you do need at least two squads landing on T1 for maximum usefulness.

At least two squads? Half the pods come down turn one...

I meant you need at least two squads able to land on T1, so you need a minimum of three podded units. Apologies for the confusion.

 Paradigm wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
GH in pods are durable if you support them, but I'd hesitate to take less than the maximum in a pod (8 and TDA or 10 in PA) and you do need at least two squads landing on T1 for maximum usefulness.

At least two squads? Half the pods come down turn one...

I meant you need at least two squads able to land on T1, so you need a minimum of three podded units. Apologies for the confusion.

Ah, ok.

I'm going to be trying an 1850 point game with a knight Errant thrown in. It means I'll have a dirty TWC unit of 5, with a WGBL and an IP and the knight on the board turn one, with a Melta maxed GH pod turning up too. The pods target will normally be the thing that can do the most damage to the knight. The Knights tend to draw a shed load of firepower and it seems they soak it up well from what I've been reading. Then, with the wolves unleashed detachment my Wolf packed full of blood claws will turn up turn two and unleash a tide of cutting, ripping and tearing.

Basically, what I'm saying is, I'm hoping the knight will draw enough firepower turn one to allow my wolves to get up close and personal. If he can do the same turn to most will be able to assault, if not everything apart from the claws. And they should be charging turn 3 minimum. Hopefully with outflank.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Take amok here and tell me what you guys think...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/612107.page

I'm kinda tempted to run an army of full Bloodclaws since their points came down so much.

6x 15 BC is only 1080 points.

At 1500 you can still get some decent fire power in to back them up.

Heck, even just throwing in 6 Obsec Rhinos to shield them would be 1290

Not 100% competitive, but man, 90 PA guys in 6 squads can't be easy for a lot of armies to deal with.

 More Dakka wrote:
I'm kinda tempted to run an army of full Bloodclaws since their points came down so much.

6x 15 BC is only 1080 points.

At 1500 you can still get some decent fire power in to back them up.

Heck, even just throwing in 6 Obsec Rhinos to shield them would be 1290

Not 100% competitive, but man, 90 PA guys in 6 squads can't be easy for a lot of armies to deal with.

We were talking
6x 10 BC with Pods and Flamer (160 each) Total = 960

That's a pretty solid core, if you have the Pods. If not, you can do the same thing with Rhinos.

Nope, 60 WS5 Wolf Guard with jump packs it is for me

 Paradigm wrote:
GH in pods are durable if you support them, but I'd hesitate to take less than the maximum in a pod (8 and TDA or 10 in PA) and you do need at least two squads landing on T1 for maximum usefulness.

Ive had some really good experiences podding in a full GH squad with murderfang. As long as they aren't too far apart, nobody seems to shoot at the GH squad

 koooaei wrote:
You've just faced an uber-list and probably didn't have enough blos terrain to hide against his shooting. Trust me, TWC are quite durable for their points and many armies will have hard time dealing with them. For example, my orkses. A standard squad of 20 shootaboyz (pk nob, rokkits) will statistically inflict around 1.5 wounds on TWC. Than will promptly die in mellee killing another one or two at best. And this squad of shootaboyz costs ~180 pts. That's the ideal scenario when orks get to shoot and charge.

Yep, wolves are not unkillable but they're really awesome for their points.

I'm actually thinking Rhinos for my tournie list, just to give the TWC guaranteed LOS blockers for cheap (not to mention that I don't have pods anyway... )

Just picked up the Champions of Fenris supplement. Now Im dying to try the Arjack formation with 5 TH/SS TDAWG in a crusader.

605 points, really not terrible for an 1850 game, really going to pack a punch and should be able to take a beating as well.

I'd also consider throwing in an IC with something like those rending Wolf Claws, something to strike at full initiative and take down threats that strike before the Termies.

Thoughts?

I'm kind of torn between Blood Claws and Grey Hunters. Sure, Blood Claws are cheaper, but in general they're going to put out less than half the firepower as an equal number of Grey Hunters, since they're stuck with bolt pistols and BS3. I'm just not sure if the 10-40pts saved per unit is really worth the drop in efficiency. I mention this because I'm trying to come up with a 1500pt list for a tournament and want my 5-man units to actually contribute somewhat...

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I'm kind of torn between Blood Claws and Grey Hunters. Sure, Blood Claws are cheaper, but in general they're going to put out less than half the firepower as an equal number of Grey Hunters, since they're stuck with bolt pistols and BS3. I'm just not sure if the 10-40pts saved per unit is really worth the drop in efficiency. I mention this because I'm trying to come up with a 1500pt list for a tournament and want my 5-man units to actually contribute somewhat...

Blood claws are not designed for MSU play style. For this, I'd suggest grey hunters.

 koooaei wrote:
You've just faced an uber-list and probably didn't have enough blos terrain to hide against his shooting. Trust me, TWC are quite durable for their points and many armies will have hard time dealing with them. For example, my orkses. A standard squad of 20 shootaboyz (pk nob, rokkits) will statistically inflict around 1.5 wounds on TWC. Than will promptly die in mellee killing another one or two at best. And this squad of shootaboyz costs ~180 pts. That's the ideal scenario when orks get to shoot and charge.

Yep, wolves are not unkillable but they're really awesome for their points.

Truth is, against top tier pure Wolves will struggle. Any competitive army needs to be allied nowadays.

From a competitive perspective there are 4 units in the SW Codex (Champions of Fenris supplement actually) that reign supreme:

Thunderwolf Cavalry, the only reliable hard counter to Knights

Stormwolf, probably the best flier in the game

Servitors, the cheapest scoring unit in the game.

Drop pods for allies.

Use and abuse!

SM/SW

Tigurius 165

Scouts 55
Tac Squad + Pod 105

Centurions, 3x Grav, Omniscope 260
Centurions, 3x Grav, Omniscope 260

Champs of Fenris Supplement

Wolf Guard BL with Armour of Asvald Stormrack (2+ 4++ IWND for 50 pts), Thunderwolf, Chainfist, 2 Wolves 181pts
Wolf Priest on bike to give the TWC PE and 6+ FNP 130

Servitor 10
Servitor 10

6 TWC, 3 PF, 3 SS
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Culexus

There's room for either a Rune Priest or Librarian ML 2 to go with the second Centurion squad.

WGBL has 1 less wound, attack and ws than a Wolf Lord but gains IWND and a 2+ Save for 5 pts less. And you can take Chainfist for 15 pts!

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You've just faced an uber-list and probably didn't have enough blos terrain to hide against his shooting. Trust me, TWC are quite durable for their points and many armies will have hard time dealing with them. For example, my orkses. A standard squad of 20 shootaboyz (pk nob, rokkits) will statistically inflict around 1.5 wounds on TWC. Than will promptly die in mellee killing another one or two at best. And this squad of shootaboyz costs ~180 pts. That's the ideal scenario when orks get to shoot and charge.

Yep, wolves are not unkillable but they're really awesome for their points.

Truth is, against top tier pure Wolves will struggle. Any competitive army needs to be allied nowadays.

From a competitive perspective there are 4 units in the SW Codex (Champions of Fenris supplement actually) that reign supreme:

Thunderwolf Cavalry, the only reliable hard counter to Knights

Stormwolf, probably the best flier in the game

Servitors, the cheapest scoring unit in the game.

Drop pods for allies.

Use and abuse!

SM/SW

Tigurius 165

Scouts 55
Tac Squad + Pod 105

Centurions, 3x Grav, Omniscope 260
Centurions, 3x Grav, Omniscope 260

Champs of Fenris Supplement

Wolf Guard BL with Armour of Asvald Stormrack (2+ 4++ IWND for 50 pts), Thunderwolf, Chainfist, 2 Wolves 181pts
Wolf Priest on bike to give the TWC PE and 6+ FNP 130

Servitor 10
Servitor 10

6 TWC, 3 PF, 3 SS
Drop Pod
Drop Pod

Culexus

There's room for either a Rune Priest or Librarian ML 2 to go with the second Centurion squad.

WGBL has 1 less wound, attack and ws than a Wolf Lord but gains IWND and a 2+ Save for 5 pts less. And you can take Chainfist for 15 pts!

I do believe your WGBL is illegal my friend. I am pretty sure you can't have a terminator riding on a Thunderwolf, but I could be wrong. If I am then I think I may know where an additional 30 points of my list are going lol.

Overall though that does look pretty nasty, might want to free up some points though to put those centurions into drop pods though

I have seen the relic armor being debated on TDA or not. It is obviously TDA, but I don't believe it states that the character must take stuff from the TDA wargear and cant ride a bike or TWC.

He has the fast attack drop pods.

Technically in the rules the armor does not say it is a suit of terminator armor(it does in the fluff) so right now its not against the rules(there was a thread about it)

Personally I would rather get the krakenbone sword and a storm shield for the same points(which is what I am running)

It is a suit of terminator armour in the fluff but not in the rules, it just gives 2+ 4++ and Bulky, Relentless, Deep Strike etc. I might be wrong about being able to take a Chainfist with it though.

Drop Pods are there.

Why would you pass up the chance to get Str 10? It's the raison d'etre of putting anything on TWC. Str 6 attacks don't really help against Knights, the chief melee threat. And you need Str 10 to punch other wolves.

Currently RAW the wolves are only 9 unfortunately so that is how I am playing them just to be on the safe side. With that in mind having the claw at initiative is actually quite nice since it will still rend

 Leth wrote:
Currently RAW the wolves are only 9 unfortunately so that is how I am playing them just to be on the safe side. With that in mind having the claw at initiative is actually quite nice since it will still rend

What about TWC?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Currently RAW the wolves are only 9 unfortunately so that is how I am playing them just to be on the safe side. With that in mind having the claw at initiative is actually quite nice since it will still rend

What about TWC?

Same thing unfortunately. The way it is worded is the same as 5th, only now we don't have the FAQ like we did before. So there is currently lots of wording that supports str 9, and next to no wording in the rules that supports strength 10. The real nail in the coffin for me was that furious charge uses the exact same wording as the thunderwolves and that definitely doesnt apply before doubling.

Makes me sad, but still very powerful so I dont mind.

 Leth wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Currently RAW the wolves are only 9 unfortunately so that is how I am playing them just to be on the safe side. With that in mind having the claw at initiative is actually quite nice since it will still rend

What about TWC?

Same thing unfortunately. The way it is worded is the same as 5th, only now we don't have the FAQ like we did before. So there is currently lots of wording that supports str 9, and next to no wording in the rules that supports strength 10. The real nail in the coffin for me was that furious charge uses the exact same wording as the thunderwolves and that definitely doesnt apply before doubling.

Makes me sad, but still very powerful so I dont mind.

But they are listed at S5, not S4[5], so by RAW they would be S10.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Currently RAW the wolves are only 9 unfortunately so that is how I am playing them just to be on the safe side. With that in mind having the claw at initiative is actually quite nice since it will still rend

What about TWC?

Same thing unfortunately. The way it is worded is the same as 5th, only now we don't have the FAQ like we did before. So there is currently lots of wording that supports str 9, and next to no wording in the rules that supports strength 10. The real nail in the coffin for me was that furious charge uses the exact same wording as the thunderwolves and that definitely doesnt apply before doubling.

Makes me sad, but still very powerful so I dont mind.

But they are listed at S5, not S4[5], so by RAW they would be S10.

The problem lies in the fact that the wargear says "these bonuses are already included in the profile" but that is neither here nor there. Play it how your group plans to play it. I am planning on going to tournaments so I need to play it conservative and then ask the TO

 Leth wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Currently RAW the wolves are only 9 unfortunately so that is how I am playing them just to be on the safe side. With that in mind having the claw at initiative is actually quite nice since it will still rend

What about TWC?

Same thing unfortunately. The way it is worded is the same as 5th, only now we don't have the FAQ like we did before. So there is currently lots of wording that supports str 9, and next to no wording in the rules that supports strength 10. The real nail in the coffin for me was that furious charge uses the exact same wording as the thunderwolves and that definitely doesnt apply before doubling.

Makes me sad, but still very powerful so I dont mind.

But they are listed at S5, not S4[5], so by RAW they would be S10.

The problem lies in the fact that the wargear says "these bonuses are already included in the profile"

Yes the problem is they did not make it Clear. The problem is the Ruleing that makes them "S9" uses the word Modification and No where does it say it is a Modification.
This is why group is going with the old FAQ on it.

Eh? TWC are Str 5 in their profile, it may be a different matter for ICs but it's pretty clear that TWC are str 10 no?

Once again it is down to the wording.....its very technical. I understand where it is coming from and I wouldnt worry about it a majority of the time.

Like I said I am prepping for tournaments and so go with the conservative version so I am not upset if a TO rules differently

I'm sure most players will skew towards the S10 argument, but if you're worried about TFGs then fair enough.

Ugh, please don't get into the TWC debate in here. I read some NOVA bat reps and the TWC were played as S10. My LGS and all players within are going with 10, as that is the statline says 5, as does all the old stuff (which I know doesn't matter)

I would also go with krakensword and SS on the lord. Remember that he will be tied up in a challenge most of the time, and at initiative AP2 is going to be awesome. Put the TH or PF on a standard TWC for your S10. If you are really worried about knights, bring an Iron priest, he is S10(9) ap1 thanks to his servo harness (and rending, woo!)