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Wait...can Scouts have a heavy weapon? I don't think they can.
EDIT: Holy crap, it appears they can! I checked a PDF version of the codex, however -- is there any possibility this is an error? Can someone confirm on the paper version of the book?
EDIT AGAIN: Nope. Should've went with my gut instinct on this one. Those cooler options have a superscript 2 with them, which the key says Wolf Scouts can't take.
Too bad GW, I was actually ready to go buy some scouts and a Dev box to make this.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/16 14:05:39
It isn't, but the Heavy Weapons list itself forbids scouts from taking Plasma Cannons, unfortunately.
Epic fail, unfortunately. The unit really is a crap copy-paste of normal scouts, with +1 BS/ WS.
I guess this means tactically all you want to do with them is give them camo cloaks and hide all day, sadly. What happens when you attach an IC to a unit with Infiltrate or Scout? Do they even have that utility?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/16 14:17:02
I totally forgot about murderfang, I will have to squeeze him in somewhere.
I don't have to worry about troops though, company of the great wolf and all. Bjorns formation could be nice, but that would be another 50pt to upgrade 2 other dreadnoughts.... allthough... the sword and shield dreadnoughts could count as those venerables. That is a +5 save while within 6 AND they get to re-roll hits while bjorn is alive, which is pretty awesome for them.
Question about the formation though, can I bring it and still have Bjorn as my HQ? That would be a bit of a deal breaker. Rulebook states that "each individual unit maintains its normal battlefield role" but I am not sure what that means. I am guessing it means that they still count as HQ and elite though.
What are your feelings on the contemptor? If I am going to squeeze in some missile pods, I will need more points. I would like to field him, as I have the model. I could drop a dreadnought, maybe an autocannon dread, then upgrade one to murderfang and give a few pods missiles.
gwarsh41 wrote: I totally forgot about murderfang, I will have to squeeze him in somewhere.
I don't have to worry about troops though, company of the great wolf and all. Bjorns formation could be nice, but that would be another 50pt to upgrade 2 other dreadnoughts.... allthough... the sword and shield dreadnoughts could count as those venerables. That is a +5 save while within 6 AND they get to re-roll hits while bjorn is alive, which is pretty awesome for them.
Question about the formation though, can I bring it and still have Bjorn as my HQ? That would be a bit of a deal breaker. Rulebook states that "each individual unit maintains its normal battlefield role" but I am not sure what that means. I am guessing it means that they still count as HQ and elite though.
What are your feelings on the contemptor? If I am going to squeeze in some missile pods, I will need more points. I would like to field him, as I have the model. I could drop a dreadnought, maybe an autocannon dread, then upgrade one to murderfang and give a few pods missiles.
Your warlord can be from any one detachment, so yes. And also, this frees up two elite slots in the CAD, since it is its' own detachment. It also shores up the only weakness the Shield Dreads have - side and rear armor would get a 5+ invul.
I don't know much about the Contemptors, but if they have access to noteworthy firepower it is probably definitely worth including them. I say kit it out how you want, then see what you could get out of the vanilla dreads for the same points (I'm going to guess not much).
I have been looking at Wolf Scouts to be used 3 ways
Wolf Sniper Scouts: Sniper Rifles, Cano and either a Missile Launcher or Heavy Bolter. Then find some Ruins or an ADL. Might be worth taking the WGPL in Power Armor
Wolf Bolter Scouts [This is how I have been using them since 5th. ]: Just take Bolt Guns and a Plasma Gun. Camo is a good option especially if you plan on planting them on an objective. They are also good at coming out of Reserves to take Objectives. I normally went with a Plasma Gun and 2 Plasma Pistols. I have not got to try them yes with the new Codex, though I am thinking of adding the WGPL with a Combi-Plasma.
Close Combat Wolf Scouts: Weather using them as an Assault Unit or Counter-Assault the principle is the same, you want the ability to Assault. The other Weapons selection is also based on what you are planning on using them on.
>Infantry: Bolt Pistols or Shotguns. If you go with Shotguns, go with Plasma Pistols [Remember you are replacing you Bolt Gun for these Giving you Gun Fighters]. For Power Weapons you want Bolt Pistols. The WGPL is not another bad option. Tool him up for close combat, a Storm Shield would not be out of place. As for the Special Weapon, a Flamer would be good.
>MCs/Tanks: I would tend to go with a Shotguns because most of the time you will just be using Krak Grenades most of the Time. I would also look at either Power Axe or Plasma Pistol. For the Special Weapon I would look at the Melta Gun. For the WGPL Either go with the Combi-Melta/Power Fist combo or Plasma Pistol. Another combo I have been looking at for Dreadnaught/MC Hunting is Storm Shield, Plasma Pistol and Melta-Bomb.
With the cost associated, I'd really only use them for one thing -- inilftrate onto a distant, easy to hold objective with camo cloaks and maybe a flakk ML for the occasional lucky rear armor shot. Spend most of the game gone to ground.
So I was thinking of building a SW allied detachment. In trying to keep the HQ cheap and possibly provide some psy defense via a hood, I'm thinking of bringing a RP. Originally, I was going to keep him cheap but recently I've been leaning towards this build:
-ML2
-Psychic Hood
-Helm of Durfast
-Plasma Pistol
-Biomancy
At 130, he's still fairly cheap.
The helm gives him rerolls to hit (which pretty much solves Gets Hot) and ignores cover, so the pistol will probably pay for itself first shot.
The biomancy primaris adds another 4 cover ignoring AP2 shots and possibly 2 more if life leech is rolled. Without armor upgrades he's squishy, but he really only needs a turn or two to make a mess of something.
The one thing I'm not sure about is whether he should have an axe or a sword. The Axe is S6 AP2. As long as he hides in a unit he's got 4 rerollable attacks on the first round.
On the other hand he's already got a bunch of psychic/shooting AP2 attacks, the sword would preserve his initiative and almost 2/3rds of the time be better for a biomancy psyker. Iron Arm would make it AP2 without the downsides of the axe, that other power would boost his initiative to make him pretty much always swing first if he's not wielding an axe. If I realize he needs to stay away from super melee focused enemy deathstars, AP3 might be good enough and the extra initiative can protect his squad especially given that as a character on a 6 he can direct his wounds to enemy power firsts or the like.
Now initially, I was thinking I should give him a bike and attach to TWC or the like, but really if I wanted to bring a bike psyker Sentinels of Terra would do that job better with the +1 WC and rerollable psychic tests relic.
My second idea is to keep him on foot and stick him in a Drop pod with a GH squad. Since my main army is SoB, I can give them a priest with the book that makes the War Hymns always go off without a Ld test. For those unfamiliar with this guy he's just like the one AM get but with more wargear and relic options. At 40 points with the book, he's a T3 4++ W1 zealot who allows the unit to reroll all saves in melee or basically have shred in melee (Technically I could add a second priest and have both.) Rerollable 3+ is pretty crazy against non-AP3 weapons. (For example, it would take enemy MEQ making S4 AP- attacks 36 attacks on average to remove a single one of my marines in that squad.) He doesn't help with getting shot, but meh? Actually, the priest makes Runic armor seem possibly worthwhile because rerollable 2+ leads to sad opponents. (Going to terminator armor would prevent sweeping advances, cost me the cover-ignoring plasma shot, one attack in melee, and one additional ablative wound in the squad coming down in the pod all for a 5++.)
This leaves me with the squad itself. My initial idea, since I need a troop squad anyway would be to take 8 GH with a standard, WGPL (someone to eat a challenge). 147 points is not overly much. I could add up to 2 power fist and a CCW on everyone which starts to bring the squad up there. This means that they are around 300ish points depending on the upgrades. With the standard they get 5 attacks from the RP at AP2 or 3 and 3,4, or 7 from power fists. (Or maybe the WGPL takes an axe for the extra attack?) on the first round. Also the priest gives them the ability to reroll to hit that first round.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can then use my FA slot for another drop pod for some sort of SoB unit then I probably have to take a third pod (Murderfang? Empty along with a squad of Longfangs that start on the board?)
I also scout forward 1-2 units with 4 cover-ignoring melta guns giving the enemy at least 4 total important targets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One other thought would be to take wolf guard as they effectively have the extra attack built in, but then no banner buff for the RP, but a much wider selection of weapons.
Alternatively, instead of taking the power first, I could take an Iron Priest. GH with PF = 39 points. For 16 more, I'd get a 4th (and 5th attack first round) and a 2+ save (without losing sweeping advances) and an additional character to eat a challenge. Only reason I can see not to take him is if this is an allied detachment and I really want Murderfang.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/17 07:19:42
Retributors with 4 heavy flamers coming out of a pod sounds dope. What does their act of faith do again? I know SoB heavy support slots are quite precious though.
Oh man that sounds sexy. How about keep the hunters cheap with melta to crack something open for FLAMES OF RETRIBUTION!!! Your scouting ignores cover melta should help with that too.
Yeah, other thought was to make the GH just be a cheap squad of blood claws instead. The enemy would probably focus on the melta/flamer squads. 8 BC with a priest for save rerolls or shred would be reasonably good at removing non-pimped out enemy units and cheaper.
Both the sister squads can take a priest and a 10 point upgrade that gives them a second turn of using their act of faith. This makes them Fearless units that must be removed by the enemy or at least which the enemy should give a wide berth to.
I'm considering a list -- perhaps foolishly -- that includes a Land Raider Crusader with Ulrik and a squad of kitted-out GH with the banner, AND a Stormwolf with some Blood Claws and a tooled up Battle Leader.
This is a LOT of points, but has some merit. However, that being said, I'm considering ditching the Blood Claws entirely and just taking the Stormwolf empty, putting the Battle Leader in the Raider with Ulrik's boys. It doesn't save me much in terms of points, but I do want the rest of the army to be able to make an impact and gain some benefit from Ulrik and the Banner's buffs. I'm thinking Drop Pod units for the rest just the same, so that there is some pressure on before the Ulrik raider and his boys arrive.
What do you all think of an idea like these two options?
I've been contemplating making a Deathwatch army, and I'm thinking Champions of Fenris might be the go. Mounted PA Wolf Guard squads with combi-weapons, Dreadnoughts and Terminators.
gwarsh41 wrote:I will have a contemptor (assault cannon/power fist),
My books says Space Wolves can't take contemptors?
Fenris Frost wrote:Given any thought to Murderfang here? Or Bjorn's formation? That would add some longevity.
For troops you are looking at minimized Blood Claws
Any unit can only belong to 1 formation. If he takes Bjorn's formation then Bjorn can't be the mandatory HQ required for a Company of the Great Wolf detachment. That detachment doesn't need troops either, and he said he wanted an "All Dreadnought army".
- 10,000+ (since 1994)
- 5000 (since 1996)
Harlequins/Ynnari -2500
Empire - 3000 (Current build)
Dwarves - Old and desperately in need of updating
Fenris Frost wrote: I'm considering a list -- perhaps foolishly -- that includes a Land Raider Crusader with Ulrik and a squad of kitted-out GH with the banner, AND a Stormwolf with some Blood Claws and a tooled up Battle Leader.
This is a LOT of points, but has some merit. However, that being said, I'm considering ditching the Blood Claws entirely and just taking the Stormwolf empty, putting the Battle Leader in the Raider with Ulrik's boys. It doesn't save me much in terms of points, but I do want the rest of the army to be able to make an impact and gain some benefit from Ulrik and the Banner's buffs. I'm thinking Drop Pod units for the rest just the same, so that there is some pressure on before the Ulrik raider and his boys arrive.
What do you all think of an idea like these two options?
I was thinking of a similar list myself, 15 BC's and Ulrik in a Crusader seems a really fun unit on the table. Though for the rest of my list I was thinking of GHs in Rhinos or pods and either a couple of Dreads or some TWC.
I like your list but a Crusader and Stormwolf is quite a bit of points, but if played correctly will be very effective. (As long as your opponents army isn't full of melta and AA )
I tried out this odd list this week, it was against pure Tau and the list was upgraded to 2500 for this encounter. Unfortunately, I found some things out the hard way.
First and foremost...man, how do you beat these guys? I've never had a game go from so in my favor to so cripplingly in the other guy's favor so far. I attempted two charges at the top of turn 3 and got 600 points of stuff crippled, only for him to effortlessly finish it off on his player turn. I never made combat with a single model.
He had two Ethereals in Devilfish pumping out the extra pulse shot bonus to about 30 firewarriors, a couple of Riptides with the usual gear, a squad of Kroot, a unit of Rail Rifle broadsides, a couple of Railheads, and three units of Pathfinders. I quickly dropped two of the pathfinder units (though in the process Bjorn got lit up and immobilized, facing sideways, so he couldn't do much every turn afterward)
I managed to quickly breach the front and break open a devilfish but two more were waiting and were able to deploy a lot of stuff quickly. Classic Tau tactics -- stayed close so I would eat it on the charge with their super overwatch-o-rama trick.
The Crusader is, as it always has been IMO, a liability. Every army has some kind of dedicated AV14 killing trick, and a lot of them can easily reach and kill it. At first I was very confident because it advanced and shot and was right on target, delivering my Ulrik+Banner unit right where I wanted it alongside my last living TWC, and the charge attempt just obliterated it all. Ulrik not having a 2+ save really hurts, you need a supplemental character in their to soak up some shots on the way in. By the time it was near him and he decided to pay attention to it, it died very easily to some fusion gun suits he deep struck (3 sets of 3).
My Multimelta Long Fangs in a Bunker idea really stunk it up. The same thing that has been happening to my Lascannon Fangs happened to these guys; he ignored them. The difference is the Lascannons had the distance to do some damage from downtown, though it is highly minimized it worked well. I'm considering the incredibly foolish idea of putting the 5 multis in a Pod with a 2+ Psyker or Termie WG in front to tank a bit...dropping it somewhere really inconvenient and letting the enemy have to deal with it might at least take them off their game a bit. The Bunker works great if you have a threat in it but it is really not worth much with Fangs in it...they are your only unit with long range threat so most armies don't really care.
The Stormwolf was meh as well. It's not bad but when carrying cargo (in my case, a Battle Leader and a bunch of Blood Claws), it is fairly easy for it to drop their gunnery role and become too vulnerable while flying low. My opponent deep struck three squads of fusion gun suits which of course polished off the Raider and the Stormwolf in super short order, shortly after my disastrous charge.
I used the three CML speeder unit as well and found it totally wanting for the points. For 15 points less I can have 6 multimeltas, which is probably better off. They are a good unit but I found that, again, most of the time he was willing to just let me have the shots, as they were largely inconsequential.
My takeaway questions following this game:
1.) It seems like other armies have some units that can power up their allies, it seems like the closest thing to that we have is Ulrik and the Priests, both easily killed. Where is our HQ beef? People seem generally unimpressed/not concerned, unlike with things like a Nurgle Prince or a Eternal Shield Chapter Master where people are like 'I MUST KILL THIS THING'.
2.) I think Long Fangs are dead, man. I've tried so many different configs, none seem to work: - 5ML, they just put 2+ targets in front of them - 5LC, effective but not as much as 190 points would have you believe, and they are vulnerable usually without supplemented investments. - 5HB, no one cares, you are either hurting guys who will save most of the wounds or hurting guys who are too cheap for the other dude to care. - 5PC, they just burn themselves to death, one kills himself every other turn. - 5MM seems pretty good for the price but then no one gets anywhere near them because the entire rest of our army is aggressive short-range stuff so they quickly are left in the dust.
The question is, what can be used in their place?
3.) Bjorn, verdict is still out on this one. Worth the points? Probably not against Tau.
4.) Do any of the Champions of Fenris formations or detachments alleviate any of these issues?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/20 13:20:36
Seems like a fully upgraded Wolf Lord on a TW is the wolves' version of the shield eternal CM. Sure no EW, but S10 attacks are rare and you get an extra attack to compensate.
I tried out this odd list this week, it was against pure Tau and the list was upgraded to 2500 for this encounter. Unfortunately, I found some things out the hard way.
First and foremost...man, how do you beat these guys? I've never had a game go from so in my favor to so cripplingly in the other guy's favor so far. I attempted two charges at the top of turn 3 and got 600 points of stuff crippled, only for him to effortlessly finish it off on his player turn. I never made combat with a single model.
He had two Ethereals in Devilfish pumping out the extra pulse shot bonus to about 30 firewarriors, a couple of Riptides with the usual gear, a squad of Kroot, a unit of Rail Rifle broadsides, a couple of Railheads, and three units of Pathfinders. I quickly dropped two of the pathfinder units (though in the process Bjorn got lit up and immobilized, facing sideways, so he couldn't do much every turn afterward)
I managed to quickly breach the front and break open a devilfish but two more were waiting and were able to deploy a lot of stuff quickly. Classic Tau tactics -- stayed close so I would eat it on the charge with their super overwatch-o-rama trick.
The Crusader is, as it always has been IMO, a liability. Every army has some kind of dedicated AV14 killing trick, and a lot of them can easily reach and kill it. At first I was very confident because it advanced and shot and was right on target, delivering my Ulrik+Banner unit right where I wanted it alongside my last living TWC, and the charge attempt just obliterated it all. Ulrik not having a 2+ save really hurts, you need a supplemental character in their to soak up some shots on the way in. By the time it was near him and he decided to pay attention to it, it died very easily to some fusion gun suits he deep struck (3 sets of 3).
My Multimelta Long Fangs in a Bunker idea really stunk it up. The same thing that has been happening to my Lascannon Fangs happened to these guys; he ignored them. The difference is the Lascannons had the distance to do some damage from downtown, though it is highly minimized it worked well. I'm considering the incredibly foolish idea of putting the 5 multis in a Pod with a 2+ Psyker or Termie WG in front to tank a bit...dropping it somewhere really inconvenient and letting the enemy have to deal with it might at least take them off their game a bit. The Bunker works great if you have a threat in it but it is really not worth much with Fangs in it...they are your only unit with long range threat so most armies don't really care.
The Stormwolf was meh as well. It's not bad but when carrying cargo (in my case, a Battle Leader and a bunch of Blood Claws), it is fairly easy for it to drop their gunnery role and become too vulnerable while flying low. My opponent deep struck three squads of fusion gun suits which of course polished off the Raider and the Stormwolf in super short order, shortly after my disastrous charge.
I used the three CML speeder unit as well and found it totally wanting for the points. For 15 points less I can have 6 multimeltas, which is probably better off. They are a good unit but I found that, again, most of the time he was willing to just let me have the shots, as they were largely inconsequential.
My takeaway questions following this game:
1.) It seems like other armies have some units that can power up their allies, it seems like the closest thing to that we have is Ulrik and the Priests, both easily killed. Where is our HQ beef? People seem generally unimpressed/not concerned, unlike with things like a Nurgle Prince or a Eternal Shield Chapter Master where people are like 'I MUST KILL THIS THING'.
2.) I think Long Fangs are dead, man. I've tried so many different configs, none seem to work:
- 5ML, they just put 2+ targets in front of them
- 5LC, effective but not as much as 190 points would have you believe, and they are vulnerable usually without supplemented investments.
- 5HB, no one cares, you are either hurting guys who will save most of the wounds or hurting guys who are too cheap for the other dude to care.
- 5PC, they just burn themselves to death, one kills himself every other turn.
- 5MM seems pretty good for the price but then no one gets anywhere near them because the entire rest of our army is aggressive short-range stuff so they quickly are left in the dust.
The question is, what can be used in their place?
3.) Bjorn, verdict is still out on this one. Worth the points? Probably not against Tau.
4.) Do any of the Champions of Fenris formations or detachments alleviate any of these issues?
Can you post a list?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/20 15:40:58
I tried out this odd list this week, it was against pure Tau and the list was upgraded to 2500 for this encounter. Unfortunately, I found some things out the hard way.
First and foremost...man, how do you beat these guys? I've never had a game go from so in my favor to so cripplingly in the other guy's favor so far. I attempted two charges at the top of turn 3 and got 600 points of stuff crippled, only for him to effortlessly finish it off on his player turn. I never made combat with a single model.
He had two Ethereals in Devilfish pumping out the extra pulse shot bonus to about 30 firewarriors, a couple of Riptides with the usual gear, a squad of Kroot, a unit of Rail Rifle broadsides, a couple of Railheads, and three units of Pathfinders. I quickly dropped two of the pathfinder units (though in the process Bjorn got lit up and immobilized, facing sideways, so he couldn't do much every turn afterward)
I managed to quickly breach the front and break open a devilfish but two more were waiting and were able to deploy a lot of stuff quickly. Classic Tau tactics -- stayed close so I would eat it on the charge with their super overwatch-o-rama trick.
The Crusader is, as it always has been IMO, a liability. Every army has some kind of dedicated AV14 killing trick, and a lot of them can easily reach and kill it. At first I was very confident because it advanced and shot and was right on target, delivering my Ulrik+Banner unit right where I wanted it alongside my last living TWC, and the charge attempt just obliterated it all. Ulrik not having a 2+ save really hurts, you need a supplemental character in their to soak up some shots on the way in. By the time it was near him and he decided to pay attention to it, it died very easily to some fusion gun suits he deep struck (3 sets of 3).
My Multimelta Long Fangs in a Bunker idea really stunk it up. The same thing that has been happening to my Lascannon Fangs happened to these guys; he ignored them. The difference is the Lascannons had the distance to do some damage from downtown, though it is highly minimized it worked well. I'm considering the incredibly foolish idea of putting the 5 multis in a Pod with a 2+ Psyker or Termie WG in front to tank a bit...dropping it somewhere really inconvenient and letting the enemy have to deal with it might at least take them off their game a bit. The Bunker works great if you have a threat in it but it is really not worth much with Fangs in it...they are your only unit with long range threat so most armies don't really care.
The Stormwolf was meh as well. It's not bad but when carrying cargo (in my case, a Battle Leader and a bunch of Blood Claws), it is fairly easy for it to drop their gunnery role and become too vulnerable while flying low. My opponent deep struck three squads of fusion gun suits which of course polished off the Raider and the Stormwolf in super short order, shortly after my disastrous charge.
I used the three CML speeder unit as well and found it totally wanting for the points. For 15 points less I can have 6 multimeltas, which is probably better off. They are a good unit but I found that, again, most of the time he was willing to just let me have the shots, as they were largely inconsequential.
My takeaway questions following this game:
1.) It seems like other armies have some units that can power up their allies, it seems like the closest thing to that we have is Ulrik and the Priests, both easily killed. Where is our HQ beef? People seem generally unimpressed/not concerned, unlike with things like a Nurgle Prince or a Eternal Shield Chapter Master where people are like 'I MUST KILL THIS THING'.
2.) I think Long Fangs are dead, man. I've tried so many different configs, none seem to work:
- 5ML, they just put 2+ targets in front of them
- 5LC, effective but not as much as 190 points would have you believe, and they are vulnerable usually without supplemented investments.
- 5HB, no one cares, you are either hurting guys who will save most of the wounds or hurting guys who are too cheap for the other dude to care.
- 5PC, they just burn themselves to death, one kills himself every other turn.
- 5MM seems pretty good for the price but then no one gets anywhere near them because the entire rest of our army is aggressive short-range stuff so they quickly are left in the dust.
The question is, what can be used in their place?
3.) Bjorn, verdict is still out on this one. Worth the points? Probably not against Tau.
4.) Do any of the Champions of Fenris formations or detachments alleviate any of these issues?
I have yet to play against the current Tau dex ( thankfully ) Drop pods filled with GHs and WG with Combi's seem good on paper against Tau, would have to actually play to see it's effectiveness though.
Combi weapons cost more now but it might be worth it against tau gunline.
Also maybe a couple of vindicators might be a good distraction while the rest of your army moves up the table.
That Tau list was a pretty bad matchup though, enough railguns in it to easily put down your LR, and a lot of points with it.
I agree on LFs, too expensive and probaly won't make their points back.
The Long Fangs might have more utility if I drop them in a pod if I keep them with Multi Meltas. At the very last it's a must-kill unit, and with a meltagun on the leader it could potentially slag a tank on arrival. Seems like a crap idea either way.
I'm considering going back to Lascannons. I'm also taking a page out of my opponents book and trying 3x 3-man TDAWG units with combi-meltas. This should slag any tanks that come up and give me some durable throw-away units to try to assault into the line first to take that gross triple-overwatch.
I'm also hoping to have 2 Vindicators and 2 Whirlwinds next go around, too.
Fenris Frost wrote: The Long Fangs might have more utility if I drop them in a pod if I keep them with Multi Meltas. At the very last it's a must-kill unit, and with a meltagun on the leader it could potentially slag a tank on arrival. Seems like a crap idea either way.
I'm considering going back to Lascannons. I'm also taking a page out of my opponents book and trying 3x 3-man TDAWG units with combi-meltas. This should slag any tanks that come up and give me some durable throw-away units to try to assault into the line first to take that gross triple-overwatch.
I'm also hoping to have 2 Vindicators and 2 Whirlwinds next go around, too.
The LFs in a pod will at least attract a good few shots that isn't going into the rest of your army.
2 Vindicators and 2 Whirlwinds sounds good, they will at the very least kill some stuff and attract a lot of fire which isn't hitting your troops.
gwarsh41 wrote:I will have a contemptor (assault cannon/power fist),
My books says Space Wolves can't take contemptors?
Fenris Frost wrote:Given any thought to Murderfang here? Or Bjorn's formation? That would add some longevity.
For troops you are looking at minimized Blood Claws
Any unit can only belong to 1 formation. If he takes Bjorn's formation then Bjorn can't be the mandatory HQ required for a Company of the Great Wolf detachment. That detachment doesn't need troops either, and he said he wanted an "All Dreadnought army".
Space wolves have their own contemptor dreadnought. Its a few pages after the standard contemptor in the most recent Apoc book.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/20 20:44:29
I tried out this odd list this week, it was against pure Tau and the list was upgraded to 2500 for this encounter. Unfortunately, I found some things out the hard way.
First and foremost...man, how do you beat these guys? I've never had a game go from so in my favor to so cripplingly in the other guy's favor so far. I attempted two charges at the top of turn 3 and got 600 points of stuff crippled, only for him to effortlessly finish it off on his player turn. I never made combat with a single model.
He had two Ethereals in Devilfish pumping out the extra pulse shot bonus to about 30 firewarriors, a couple of Riptides with the usual gear, a squad of Kroot, a unit of Rail Rifle broadsides, a couple of Railheads, and three units of Pathfinders. I quickly dropped two of the pathfinder units (though in the process Bjorn got lit up and immobilized, facing sideways, so he couldn't do much every turn afterward)
I managed to quickly breach the front and break open a devilfish but two more were waiting and were able to deploy a lot of stuff quickly. Classic Tau tactics -- stayed close so I would eat it on the charge with their super overwatch-o-rama trick.
The Crusader is, as it always has been IMO, a liability. Every army has some kind of dedicated AV14 killing trick, and a lot of them can easily reach and kill it. At first I was very confident because it advanced and shot and was right on target, delivering my Ulrik+Banner unit right where I wanted it alongside my last living TWC, and the charge attempt just obliterated it all. Ulrik not having a 2+ save really hurts, you need a supplemental character in their to soak up some shots on the way in. By the time it was near him and he decided to pay attention to it, it died very easily to some fusion gun suits he deep struck (3 sets of 3).
My Multimelta Long Fangs in a Bunker idea really stunk it up. The same thing that has been happening to my Lascannon Fangs happened to these guys; he ignored them. The difference is the Lascannons had the distance to do some damage from downtown, though it is highly minimized it worked well. I'm considering the incredibly foolish idea of putting the 5 multis in a Pod with a 2+ Psyker or Termie WG in front to tank a bit...dropping it somewhere really inconvenient and letting the enemy have to deal with it might at least take them off their game a bit. The Bunker works great if you have a threat in it but it is really not worth much with Fangs in it...they are your only unit with long range threat so most armies don't really care.
The Stormwolf was meh as well. It's not bad but when carrying cargo (in my case, a Battle Leader and a bunch of Blood Claws), it is fairly easy for it to drop their gunnery role and become too vulnerable while flying low. My opponent deep struck three squads of fusion gun suits which of course polished off the Raider and the Stormwolf in super short order, shortly after my disastrous charge.
I used the three CML speeder unit as well and found it totally wanting for the points. For 15 points less I can have 6 multimeltas, which is probably better off. They are a good unit but I found that, again, most of the time he was willing to just let me have the shots, as they were largely inconsequential.
My takeaway questions following this game:
1.) It seems like other armies have some units that can power up their allies, it seems like the closest thing to that we have is Ulrik and the Priests, both easily killed. Where is our HQ beef? People seem generally unimpressed/not concerned, unlike with things like a Nurgle Prince or a Eternal Shield Chapter Master where people are like 'I MUST KILL THIS THING'.
2.) I think Long Fangs are dead, man. I've tried so many different configs, none seem to work:
- 5ML, they just put 2+ targets in front of them
- 5LC, effective but not as much as 190 points would have you believe, and they are vulnerable usually without supplemented investments.
- 5HB, no one cares, you are either hurting guys who will save most of the wounds or hurting guys who are too cheap for the other dude to care.
- 5PC, they just burn themselves to death, one kills himself every other turn.
- 5MM seems pretty good for the price but then no one gets anywhere near them because the entire rest of our army is aggressive short-range stuff so they quickly are left in the dust.
The question is, what can be used in their place?
3.) Bjorn, verdict is still out on this one. Worth the points? Probably not against Tau.
4.) Do any of the Champions of Fenris formations or detachments alleviate any of these issues?
I have yet to play against the current Tau dex ( thankfully ) Drop pods filled with GHs and WG with Combi's seem good on paper against Tau, would have to actually play to see it's effectiveness though.
Combi weapons cost more now but it might be worth it against tau gunline.
Also maybe a couple of vindicators might be a good distraction while the rest of your army moves up the table.
That Tau list was a pretty bad matchup though, enough railguns in it to easily put down your LR, and a lot of points with it.
I agree on LFs, too expensive and probaly won't make their points back.
I have faced them twice since our new Dex dropped and crushed them both times (and they were using fairly competitive or semi-competitive lists to boot). With Tau, it seems to me like the key is a combination of threat overload and target priority. I like to have lots of heavy-hitting units or cheap distractions drawing fire away from my objective grabbers. I also really like Rhinos, with all the other distractions on the board they can often get into a position to tank shock lots of Tau... and since they're probably playing gunline, all you need is 1 failed check and they'll probably fall off the board.
If you can force them to split their fire, or waste it all on a single unit, Tau are quite manageable. Also, priority #1 is HYMP Broadsides and Plasma/Fusion Crisis Suits. Riptides are dangerous, but they're more valuable for soaking up incoming fire. Don't even bother with them if you don't have a good chance of killing them (again - tank shocking is your friend!!!!).
It has its' issues for sure, I consider this a pretty terrible list as it had little synergy and not many targets. Priority for him was elementary.
Well it did not give me Wargear load outs, but with what I could make out:
A CAD is nice, but if you could squeeze in a 2nd Character I would go with a Wolves Unleashed. This way your LRC could get in close quickly if you can pull off the Outflank. I would also conceder a Redeemer, it is a little cheaper and with Tau it will kill of the In Cover Marker Lights Quickly.
The Blood Claws should be a full 15 model Pack or go with Grey Hunters.
Long Fangs: I have been having good luck with a 4x Missile Launcher, 1x Las Canon set up. It will ID Crisis Suits and the Las-Cannon can work on the Riptides.
Put the Arjac and squad in a Pod
Drop Pods: With Pods Go big or don't bother. As it is One Pod Unit Arrives and gets blasted out of existence before it can do any Damage and then 1-3 turns later #2 Show up to the same fit.
especially if you thing of going with Melta-Fangs in a Pod
This if how I would do it:
Pod #1: Dread with either a Multi-Melta, Assault Cannon or Helfrost Cannon. Another option could be Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer and Heavy Flamer for dealing with Pathfinders in Cover.
Pod #2: Bjorn: Assault Cannon or Helfrost Cannon.
Pod #3: Plasma Grey Hunters [WGPL with Combi-Plasma and Power Fist, 2 Plasma Guns and a Plasma Pistol] for dealing with Riptides and or Crisis Suits.
Pod #4: Long Fangs with either Heavy Bolters for Anti-Infantry Work or Multi-Meltas and a Wolf Priest or Divination-Rune Priest.
Pod #5: Wolf Guard Terminators loaded with Combi-Flamers [For units in cover] or Combi-Plasmas [For Vehicles and Riptides]
3 can land on Turn-1.
You don't truly need Melta for Tau with a drop list.
- 10,000+ (since 1994)
- 5000 (since 1996)
) Drop pods filled with 
