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Well, I asked my dad, since he has experience of dealing with knife wielding lunatics sans taser. And he says, one guy distracts her and the other steps in and grabs both wrists. Unless the knife is incredibly sharp, an eight year old girl won't be strong enough to give you a serious cut in any case.
Does that answer the question for you?
Da Boss wrote: Well, I asked my dad, since he has experience of dealing with knife wielding lunatics sans taser. And he says, one guy distracts her and the other steps in and grabs both wrists. Unless the knife is incredibly sharp, an eight year old girl won't be strong enough to give you a serious cut in any case.
Does that answer the question for you?
It answers the "are you a teenager whos just adding your inexperienced 2 cents?" question for me yes...
what specific experience does your dad have? because, quite literally, the thing he suggests is the last thing to do according to professionals and sounds like advice someone who has no actual experience would say.
You can hand waive away a knife/girl as "won't be strong enough to give you a serious cut in any case", except that knives are sharp... kitchen knives are generally sharp as sharp can be as well.. 8 year old kids can and do stab people to death, numerous well documented cases abound of this.
even a minor cut to the cops, or to herself, is more damage then what she actually suffered from the tazing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/11 22:28:39
Da Boss wrote: Well, I asked my dad, since he has experience of dealing with knife wielding lunatics sans taser. And he says, one guy distracts her and the other steps in and grabs both wrists. Unless the knife is incredibly sharp, an eight year old girl won't be strong enough to give you a serious cut in any case.
Does that answer the question for you?
It answers the "are you a teenager whos just adding your inexperienced 2 cents?" question for me yes...
what specific experience does your dad have? because, quite literally, the thing he suggests is the last thing to do according to professionals and sounds like advice someone who has no actual experience would say.
DaBoss is an adult and his dad (iirc) is an ex-cop, so maybe dial it down a few notches?
DaBoss is an adult and his dad (iirc) is an ex-cop, so maybe dial it down a few notches?
not trying to offend him, he honestly came off as a young kid to me just asking his dad what he would do is all.
either way, heck, im sure if you could just easily distract the kid and thats what enters his dads mind first, then its also probably something that entered these cops minds as well, but in their specific situation wasnt an applicable way to do it.
DaBoss is an adult and his dad (iirc) is an ex-cop, so maybe dial it down a few notches?
not trying to offend him, he honestly came off as a young kid to me just asking his dad what he would do is all.
either way, heck, im sure if you could just easily distract the kid and thats what enters his dads mind first, then its also probably something that entered these cops minds as well, but in their specific situation wasnt an applicable way to do it.
DaBoss is an adult and his dad (iirc) is an ex-cop, so maybe dial it down a few notches?
not trying to offend him, he honestly came off as a young kid to me just asking his dad what he would do is all.
I don't know your age, but I'm always guessing it's on the younger side of things yourself.
But asking people who have more life experience than you for their advice and opinion is actually a sign of maturity. Sometimes growing up = realizing that your father may have knowledge that you don't have yet and experiences that you may learn from.
She's lucky she wasn't shot with the circumstances, cops don't like to take risks when someone is dangerous and refuses to cooperate. I'm just happy this ended as well as a it did.
Most likely this 70 pound girl wanted attention and babysitter was on Facebook.
What utter gak. The fact that tazing her ran through one of these guys heads is a testament to where this police state is headed. Even 70 pound girls are a threat? Maybe we should take the tazers back, would they have fired a bullet at her? Tazers get used way too often and way too fast
3000+
Death Company, Converted Space Hulk Termies
RIP Diz, We will never forget ya brother
DIDM wrote: Most likely this 70 pound girl wanted attention and babysitter was on Facebook.
What utter gak. The fact that tazing her ran through one of these guys heads is a testament to where this police state is headed. Even 70 pound girls are a threat? Maybe we should take the tazers back, would they have fired a bullet at her? Tazers get used way too often and way too fast
So you've never cut yourself by accident barely grabbing a knife in soapy dishwater? You're completely unaware of how easily a sharp blade can go through flesh with virtually no effort?
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
Do you know why you get cut easy doing dishes? Seriously, do you?
You can get cut by a rough spoon if you been doing dishes long enough
My question is why do cops these days jump for the tazer so quickly? It's not new, this gak happens everywhere these days. All that charge to the chest of a 70 pound girl is more of a risk than her tiny arms with what were most likely cheap ass kitchen knives that were old and no where near sharp.
These were 4 adults, against one kid, and they shot her instead of talking her out of it. What "real men" they are. It's sad how pathetic it is that people support this. You should go volunteer to be tazed in the chest for supporting this gak
3000+
Death Company, Converted Space Hulk Termies
RIP Diz, We will never forget ya brother
DIDM wrote: Do you know why you get cut easy doing dishes? Seriously, do you?
You can get cut by a rough spoon if you been doing dishes long enough
My question is why do cops these days jump for the tazer so quickly? It's not new, this gak happens everywhere these days. All that charge to the chest of a 70 pound girl is more of a risk than her tiny arms with what were most likely cheap ass kitchen knives that were old and no where near sharp.
These were 4 adults, against one kid, and they shot her instead of talking her out of it. What "real men" they are. It's sad how pathetic it is that people support this. You should go volunteer to be tazed in the chest for supporting this gak
I've been tazed lol.
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
DIDM wrote: Do you know why you get cut easy doing dishes? Seriously, do you?
You can get cut by a rough spoon if you been doing dishes long enough
My question is why do cops these days jump for the tazer so quickly? It's not new, this gak happens everywhere these days. All that charge to the chest of a 70 pound girl is more of a risk than her tiny arms with what were most likely cheap ass kitchen knives that were old and no where near sharp.
These were 4 adults, against one kid, and they shot her instead of talking her out of it. What "real men" they are. It's sad how pathetic it is that people support this. You should go volunteer to be tazed in the chest for supporting this gak
They didn't shoot her they tazed her.
You want the cops to charge a kid with a knife? You think that makes them not 'real men'? Anyone who supports them should also be tazed? That's completely ridiculous, you're lucky they didn't jump on the gun so quickly. I've seen cases where kids have shot or stabbed officers in situations as well, why should the police risk their lives and well being to remove the knife when tazing her can just as easily defuse the situation?
They're there to remove the danger, not possibly get seriously injured (because I think you're seriously underestimating the ability of anyone with a knife, even a child) and they did their job.
Da Boss wrote: An eight year old with a knife is not a credible threat to four grown police officers. Give me a break.
No, but an eight year old with a knife is a credible threat to herself.
All the talk of grabbing the knife is just Hollywood nonsense. You don't advance on the person, ever, because it is likely provoke violence, including harm to themselves. So instead your options are to wait it out, or attempt an immediate take down with a taser. The better option is determined by a risk assessment - whether there is more risk in tasering the girl or in waiting her out and hoping she doesn't self-harm.
And that risk assessment is, of course, made in a split second and very subjective. So it becomes really hard for a court to decide on, after hearing testimony and cross examination of all relevant witnesses and experts. The idea that people on the internet can read a brief summary of the events and decide whether the cop was right or wrong is just ridiculous.
But here we all are.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nkelsch wrote: It is all in the report. Child deserved it.
No, no, absolutely fething no.
In the words of the great Clint Eastwood - 'deserve's got nothing to do with it'.
This has absolutely nothing to do with deeming someone 'bad' and therefore 'deserving' of whatever harm comes their way. The child could have been the most innocent angel in the world, but had LSD snuck in to their water by an evil aunt, and the risk assessment remains the same - what action is the least likely to get someone hurt.
In this case the police assessed that it was tasering the girl. Whether that call was right or wrong I don't and it's up to a court to decide, but either way whether or not she 'deserved' it is irrelevant.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/12 04:39:31
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
It's not a humorous story. I just volunteered for it during MP training and got shot in the rump. Then I volunteered to wear the tazer protection suit and be the hostile for an NCO course that was going on. Got dry stunned a few times during that as well and experienced some heat exhaustion.
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
Trouble with the report is that there is nothing told about what happened before the tazing. Did they talk enough with her? We don't know.
We also know it took quite some time before the policemen actually came to the house, because the address told to them was wrong. So, meanwhile, there was a child with knifes threatening to harm herself alone with the babysitter...and she was still alive and unhurt when the policemen were finally here. Doesn't sound suicidal or a real "threat to herself" to me.
Of course, you could take the easy way by saying "child was throwing a tantrum, she got what she deserved". But you know, if tasing a 8 years old girl is right because she holds a knife, I guess the next step would be tasing a baby because he has a cutter in the hand and shaking it in front of you.
Then, I understand the police's work isn't a simple one, especially nowadays. They have to be careful of what they do, otherwise they get showered with blame and resentment from those they try to protect.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/08/12 08:50:18
See this is is what happens when 8 year olds don't have a job. Child hippies running amok. If they can hold a knife they can hold a shovel and a detonator I say! To the mines with you.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Right. I had done a long reply to this, then my computer crapped itself for 30 minutes while I tried to post it, so forgive me if this is abrupt.
To clarify my position:
1) I brought my father into the discussion because people challenged my stance by asking me when the last time I'd disarmed someone with a knife was. Like most people here, I've never had to disarm someone with a knife. I'm a high school teacher and I have had to tussle with students when they attacked me a couple of times, and had a knife brandished at me on a bus once, but I've never had to disarm someone. So I went to the person who had the most experience of that sort of thing that I know, my father, who is an ex-police officer from Ireland, where the police force apart from the Emergency Response Units and the detectives are only armed with batons (no tasers).
2) My dad recalled an incident where he had been dealing with a woman with psychiatric problems who had barricaded herself into the local youth hostel. She was threatening to slit her wrists and to stab anyone who came in after her. My dad managed to sidle close enough while talking to her to grab her by the wrists in a quick lunge and drag her bodily over the barricade. She tried to bite him but failed to break through his jacket. This was a grown woman in a very agitated state. It was not risk free, but it was possible, with one policeman on the scene, and he didn't have to use his baton. This is something that actually happened, and my dad is about as far from Hollywood as you can get- a middle aged rural policeman with a beer belly. Sorry if using him in the argument annoys some people, but honestly, you asked for direct experience and it happens that he has that experience.
3) When asked his opinion on this case, he said any police officer who can't disarm an 8 year old shouldn't be in the job.
4) I recognise the risk to the police officers, and it is unfortunate, but using a taser on a small child is dangerous, and could kill the child. I would rather (and my father agrees) the police officer take that risk than the child. Police forces had to deal with violent offenders before the development of tasers, officers in Ireland are still dealing with them without tasers. Even when dealing with actual thugs, the number of police officers being seriously injured is extremely low. Tasers once introduced are used more than they should be in all organisations, because they make things easier for the police. In this case, I think the use was inappropriate and irresponsible.
5) All of that said, I grew up with my dad sometimes coming home with bruises on his face or a broken nose, and one particularly memorable time broken cheek bones. I don't really have a problem with tasers being used against healthy adult offenders who are violent, because my dad has health issues due to the number of times he's been in scraps at this point (they're not serious, but he has a sleep apnoea due to having his nose broken a few too many times). I'm okay with that being avoided in the case of healthy, violent offenders. But I'm also okay with police officers being exposed to some risk, in cases where they have to consider the safety of a vulnerable citizen, yes, even a knife wielding one.
kronk wrote: I'm OK with a cop tazering someone rather than getting stabbed in the fething eye by a sad, but disturbed child.
This. I would wager that trying to grab a knife from a child poses a far higher risk than using a tazer on said child. I don't see why an officer of the law should have to put his life on the line because someone has a knife, especially when they have the tools to diffuse the situation with a far lower risk of injury or death.
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
kronk wrote: I'm OK with a cop tazering someone rather than getting stabbed in the fething eye by a sad, but disturbed child.
This is my position on the matter too. You hear '8 year old kid tasered' and your gut reaction is to feel that it's excessive, but knives are sharp and I like my flesh intact. I'm not going to risk a nasty cut out of some misguided sense of macho pride. Yes, I probably could disarm a kid of that age with a kitchen knife, but why should I?
I can only facepalm when I read all those "She's just 8 years old, just disarm her!" comments. I highly suggest watching less Hollywood movies.
Yes, the kid's 8 years old. Do you guys have a lot of experience with small children? Children can, despite their vastly inferior phyiscal power, still focus quite a considerable force when they are angry or disstressed. If a kid has a knife, you're talking seriously here. First of all, disarming a kid is more difficult than disarming an adult because you are not used to it - when, in any melee class, have you ever been taught at how to deal with someone that small? Your muscle memory is taught to work against people of roughly your size.
And as others already pointed out, the kid's in danger as well. The kid cannot handle a knife properly and might easily hurt itself.
Tazering the child allowed the conflict to end without any harm for any of the involved. It was a good call. Maybe not the best, but in the end, nobody has been severely injured and that's always nice to hear.
Tasers are not supposed to be used on anyone weighing less than 60 pounds. The story says the girl was 70 pounds, which the officers would have had to judge by sight. I would say that is dangerously close to the minimum allowable weight.
There are studies showing a statistically significant increase in deaths among suspects in custody and while being arrested after the introduction of tasers into police departments, and hundreds of deaths are linked to tasers since their introduction.
I'm alright with tasers being used on violent adults, but using them on small children is irresponsible.
Jeez, again with the hollywood comparison. How were police officers dealing with knife wielding criminals before the introduction of the taser then? How are they dealing with them in places where tasers are not in use?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/12 13:19:15
For people saying that it's easy to resist a knife attack or to disarm a person with it (not many on this thread) I have this old video bookmarked for this reason:
It's obviously a bit different due to the age, but it's still good to show that officer's can't easily respond to knife threats.
If that's the case, again, how do police officers manage in unarmed forces like the one in Ireland? We don't have a crisis in terms of stabbed police officers over here.
Da Boss wrote: If that's the case, again, how do police officers manage in unarmed forces like the one in Ireland? We don't have a crisis in terms of stabbed police officers over here.
Stab vests, other methods such as pepper spray or batons, lower knife crime... It's not just as simple as saying 'other places can manage it, why can't you?' The challenges facing Irish law enforcement officers are probably a lot different to those faced by their American or even British counterparts, man.
Grand, and if it were an adult with a knife I'd have no problem if the person was tased- better than shooting him, and considering the much greater risk to the officer, it's sensible.
My issue comes from using the taser on a little kid, where the risk of negative side effects is much higher due to the lower body mass, and the other options are a lot less risky.
Da Boss wrote: If that's the case, again, how do police officers manage in unarmed forces like the one in Ireland? We don't have a crisis in terms of stabbed police officers over here.
How do the crime rates compare?
How do the levels of gang/cartel activity compare?
Violent crime rates in Ireland (last time I checked) were actually slightly above the European average, though the murder rates were not as high- the crimes tended to be assault and so on. Knife (and syringe) crime is pretty common over here, probably the most common kind of violent crime. Gang activity is far lower and gun crime is also much much lower. The most dangerous gangs are ex-IRA terrorists, who are pretty effective and vicious, but very few in number.
I completely accept that in countries with worse gun crime and more fractured societies, that police officers may need to be armed and they may need equipment like tasers. Zero argument on that. But the crime that happens here is still often knife crime, and our police deal with it. I can give you a few more examples from just my dad's career, and he was a rural policeman. I'd even be happy for them to use tasers on adults, as I've said. That argument you're making is disingenuous because you somehow imply that overall crime rates are linked to how the police responded in this instance, when they are irrelevant. The challenge was disarming an 8 year old with a knife. People here claim it's impossible, hollywood movie style stuff. I counter that it is not, that it was done before tasers were introduced in America and it is being done in other places. What I said isn't putting An Garda Síochána on a pedestal over other police forces because I reckon they've got plenty of issues in the organisation and individual Gardaí are no better than police in other places, which is why I think the argument that a police officer couldn't disarm an eight year old are not credible.
3000+
Death Company, Converted Space Hulk Termies
