Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Da Boss wrote:
Calling someone weak because they died from suicide after a long struggle with mental illness is like calling someone weak for dying after a long struggle with cancer.

Surely you realise by now many people are scum/don't understand anything?

 Da Boss wrote:
Calling someone weak because they died from suicide after a long struggle with mental illness is like calling someone weak for dying after a long struggle with cancer.

I know many cancer victims who would disagree with you. The difference is a cancer patient acknowledges their issue, seeks treatment and fights to survive. A person with a mental illness who doesn't seek treatment, ignores their symptoms and then kills themselves is in no way 'fighting to survive' like someone with cancer.

To try to elevate them to that level is a little disingenuous. While forms of addiction and mental illness are diseases, at some point there is a level of responsibility when it comes to recognizing symptoms and seeking treatment. To compare that to people who are actually battling cancer with every tool available as aggressively as possible is pretty bad.

I actually feel worse for people who lack access to treatment or education to know about such diseases. Robin Williams is not someone who is lacking access to resources or is obliviously uneducated. To compare him to someone who died fighting cancer would have required for him to seek treatment for his addiction and depression.

Everyone say good bye to the radio star! We're outta here!
















Then of course there's the thing we all need to remember, Robin was a wargamer, one of ours. As well as a legendary comedian and entertainer.

And some people get a diagnosis of cancer and decide "I can't deal with that" and kill themselves.

And some people fight depression and mental illness for decades before succumbing to suicide.

So cancer patients are weak and mental health sufferers are strong?

Or we can stop with that silly line of discussion...

But gosh darnit I want to call victims weak and feel superior about myself.

nkelsch wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Calling someone weak because they died from suicide after a long struggle with mental illness is like calling someone weak for dying after a long struggle with cancer.

I know many cancer victims who would disagree with you. The difference is a cancer patient acknowledges their issue, seeks treatment and fights to survive. A person with a mental illness who doesn't seek treatment, ignores their symptoms and then kills themselves is in no way 'fighting to survive' like someone with cancer.

To try to elevate them to that level is a little disingenuous. While forms of addiction and mental illness are diseases, at some point there is a level of responsibility when it comes to recognizing symptoms and seeking treatment. To compare that to people who are actually battling cancer with every tool available as aggressively as possible is pretty bad.

I actually feel worse for people who lack access to treatment or education to know about such diseases. Robin Williams is not someone who is lacking access to resources or is obliviously uneducated. To compare him to someone who died fighting cancer would have required for him to seek treatment for his addiction and depression.

Robin Williams was clean and had beaten his addictions to all reports, he openly talked about his recovery and the process that took for him. The reality of the situation is that EVEN WHEN YOU HAVE TREATMENT depression can and WILL kill you. Just like Cancer you can have the best doctors and treatment in the world and it'll still put you in a box. Depression... I realize you've CLEARLY never dealt with depression, it's not just something you magically cure. It's a serious problem that in many cases doesn't go away, it can stop you from seeking treatment amongst other things as well. It's hard to outrun the monsters when YOU are the monster.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Calling someone weak because they died from suicide after a long struggle with mental illness is like calling someone weak for dying after a long struggle with cancer.

I know many cancer victims who would disagree with you. The difference is a cancer patient acknowledges their issue, seeks treatment and fights to survive. A person with a mental illness who doesn't seek treatment, ignores their symptoms and then kills themselves is in no way 'fighting to survive' like someone with cancer.

To try to elevate them to that level is a little disingenuous. While forms of addiction and mental illness are diseases, at some point there is a level of responsibility when it comes to recognizing symptoms and seeking treatment. To compare that to people who are actually battling cancer with every tool available as aggressively as possible is pretty bad.

I actually feel worse for people who lack access to treatment or education to know about such diseases. Robin Williams is not someone who is lacking access to resources or is obliviously uneducated. To compare him to someone who died fighting cancer would have required for him to seek treatment for his addiction and depression.

Robin Williams was clean and had beaten his addictions to all reports, he openly talked about his recovery and the process that took for him. The reality of the situation is that EVEN WHEN YOU HAVE TREATMENT depression can and WILL kill you. Just like Cancer you can have the best doctors and treatment in the world and it'll still put you in a box. Depression... I realize you've CLEARLY never dealt with depression, it's not just something you magically cure. It's a serious problem that in many cases doesn't go away, it can stop you from seeking treatment amongst other things as well. It's hard to outrun the monsters when YOU are the monster.

Well said, KM.

Lots of assumptions and bad information being thrown around in this thread. Perhaps we should steer things back to the discussion of Robin Williams' career and leave the arm-chair psychology out.

The real Airman Cronauer responds to the death of Robin Williams. I think he has an interesting perspective considering Robin played him.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20140812/NEWS/308120055/Five-Questions-Adrian-Cronauer-Robin-Williams?sf29704958=1

nkelsch wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Calling someone weak because they died from suicide after a long struggle with mental illness is like calling someone weak for dying after a long struggle with cancer.

I know many cancer victims who would disagree with you. The difference is a cancer patient acknowledges their issue, seeks treatment and fights to survive. A person with a mental illness who doesn't seek treatment, ignores their symptoms and then kills themselves is in no way 'fighting to survive' like someone with cancer.

To try to elevate them to that level is a little disingenuous. While forms of addiction and mental illness are diseases, at some point there is a level of responsibility when it comes to recognizing symptoms and seeking treatment. To compare that to people who are actually battling cancer with every tool available as aggressively as possible is pretty bad.

I actually feel worse for people who lack access to treatment or education to know about such diseases. Robin Williams is not someone who is lacking access to resources or is obliviously uneducated. To compare him to someone who died fighting cancer would have required for him to seek treatment for his addiction and depression.

I really liked the part where you repeatedly expect people suffering mental illnesses to behave in logical and well reasoned ways and then blame them and place fault on them when they don't.

It's like mentally ill people can be irrational!

Once again, the Dakka OT lowers the bar.

His was a life that touched many and brought a smile to many faces. It's a terrible tragedy for his family, friends and all those who work and who worked with him; as well as his many adoring fans.


To lose a life through any means is a terrible sad thing.


It is oft my observation that many who argue that those who commit suicide are selfish or weak are often those who, deep down, are most affected by such deaths. And that such it is often an expression of grief and lack of understanding than it is one of hostile intent (even if it comes out wrongly). Indeed much of the time it is an expression people make when they've no comprehension of how a person could bring themselves to such a point as to end their own life.



My only hope is that if some good might come from this that more people are made aware of and are thus brought out of ignorance regarding mental health issues that others suffer from. Indeed I hope that as a result we might all be more vigilant and capable of at least spotting and helping others to seek the right medical and psychological support to help avoid more from the same fate.





Fighting over what horrific illness, be it mental or physical, is the "worst" or which sufferers "suffer the most" or any other such arguments are, in my view, silly and at worst insulting to all those who suffer from life changing illness of mind and/or body. It is better to focus your energies upon how you might help rather than upon justification of who you choose not to wish to help.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The real Airman Cronauer responds to the death of Robin Williams. I think he has an interesting perspective considering Robin played him.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20140812/NEWS/308120055/Five-Questions-Adrian-Cronauer-Robin-Williams?sf29704958=1

One thing I felt should be pointed out from that article... 200-300 of his "closest" friends?? GFTOH... I get that he's a celebrity and a movie star, but he's still a person, and I don't know of any real life person who is legitimately close with 200+ people. If they had said 20-30 then I could believe it. But, it also kind of shows that the hollywood definition of things, and the manner of life that he lived must have had a profound effect on his well being. (which we all know, as he'd been through rehab)

Well, I guess I'm going to go watch Good Will Hunting and have a sad.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
The real Airman Cronauer responds to the death of Robin Williams. I think he has an interesting perspective considering Robin played him.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/article/20140812/NEWS/308120055/Five-Questions-Adrian-Cronauer-Robin-Williams?sf29704958=1

One thing I felt should be pointed out from that article... 200-300 of his "closest" friends?? GFTOH... I get that he's a celebrity and a movie star, but he's still a person, and I don't know of any real life person who is legitimately close with 200+ people.

That number jumped out at me too, however, given the reports by fans and other celebrities regarding how gracious and pleasant to be around Robin Williams was, in his case, I can accept that Robin Williams had that many people in his life whom he considered good friends. This guy worked almost constantly and seemed to genuinely like to interact with people. That gave him plenty of opportunity to make connections with others. Personalities like his are easy to flock to, and friendships can blossom where they would otherwise wither with a different person.

Having not met the man this is all idle speculation on my part, but Williams didn't have a reputation for being a dick. Quite the opposite in fact, and so why shouldn't he have a legion of close friends?

nkelsch, let's not drag this off topic, but people no more "fight" cancer than they fight mental illness. Robin Williams sought treatment for his addictions and depression.

A person with a positive attitude and "willpower" is just as likely to die from cancer as a pessimist with no "willpower". Your "fighting spirit" has nothing to do with whether or not tumours cause you to die.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Calling someone weak because they died from suicide after a long struggle with mental illness is like calling someone weak for dying after a long struggle with cancer.

I know many cancer victims who would disagree with you. The difference is a cancer patient acknowledges their issue, seeks treatment and fights to survive. A person with a mental illness who doesn't seek treatment, ignores their symptoms and then kills themselves is in no way 'fighting to survive' like someone with cancer.

To try to elevate them to that level is a little disingenuous. While forms of addiction and mental illness are diseases, at some point there is a level of responsibility when it comes to recognizing symptoms and seeking treatment. To compare that to people who are actually battling cancer with every tool available as aggressively as possible is pretty bad.

I actually feel worse for people who lack access to treatment or education to know about such diseases. Robin Williams is not someone who is lacking access to resources or is obliviously uneducated. To compare him to someone who died fighting cancer would have required for him to seek treatment for his addiction and depression.

I really liked the part where you repeatedly expect people suffering mental illnesses to behave in logical and well reasoned ways and then blame them and place fault on them when they don't.

They are not the same as people fighting cancer.

And to celebrate his suicide sends a wrong message to all those currently suffering from depression. They should be sending the message of 'if you have thoughts or even think you might have depression, seek treatment."

People should seek treatment for diseases. They should see doctors regularly. Family and friends should look for warning signs. Not 'ignore it all' and have a nice cake at the wake.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
nkelsch, let's not drag this off topic, but people no more "fight" cancer than they fight mental illness. Robin Williams sought treatment for his addictions and depression.

A person with a positive attitude and "willpower" is just as likely to die from cancer as a pessimist with no "willpower". Your "fighting spirit" has nothing to do with whether or not tumours cause you to die.

Lots of people don't 'die' of cancer... they die of complications of the chemo. Simple things like getting out of bed while in massive pain and walking for 10 minutes every hour can help one 'survive' chemo. You die from water in your lungs. You die from not circulating your blood in your extremities, you die by relying too much on painkillers. You die of low immune system. You die from falling down and breaking your hip due to low blood pressure. Simple acts of consciously enduring the pain and doing painful actions to prevent bed rot is crucial to survival.

You are full of it if you don't think 'fighting spirit' absolutely has a role in chemotherapy and recovery from most serious hospitalized illnesses. You don't die of the illness, you die from lying in a bed and not doing anything.

I didn't realise people were celebrating him committing suicide, and weren't actually celebrating what he did prior to that.

Last I checked no one was celebrating his death - they are celebrating his life and remembering what he did and brought to the world and people. Even if its something so simple as a smile and a laugh.

nkelsch wrote:
You don't die of the illness, you die from lying in a bed and not doing anything.

I think you might mean something other than what you have written.

The only celebration here is what he did for other people. He was an active fund raiser for local (SF area) arts, he did a lot for the homeless, and he made tons of people laugh.

Saying this is a celebration for suicide and mental illness is a stretch.

However USING this as a platform or spring board to get more information out to people that might be suffering from depression and to tell them what options are available to them is not a bad thing, IMHO.

 kronk wrote:
The only celebration here is what he did for other people. He was an active fund raiser for local (SF area) arts, he did a lot for the homeless, and he made tons of people laugh.

Saying this is a celebration for suicide and mental illness is a stretch.

However USING this as a platform or spring board to get more information out to people that might be suffering from depression and to tell them what options are available to them is not a bad thing, IMHO.

Indeed.

His comics also has an inkling of truth, which is a hallmark of sucessful comics. My two favorites are:
A) How do you know God exists and he's a stoner too? Just look at the platypus.

B) God only gave men enough blood for either the brain or the penis... but, not both.

If I may; speaking as someone who just recently sought treatment for depression, after having it for years...

Calling someone with a mental illness weak for not being able to beat it is like calling someone with a broken back weak for not walking to the hospital to get treatment. The very organ needed to recognize and fight the condition is the one being immediately crippled by it.

But anger is just another stage of grief. Blaming the victim is no more valid than praising the act, but it's human and understandable. When the world loses someone like Williams we all look for easy answers, but there just aren't any.

This is going weird places.

 d-usa wrote:
This is going weird places.

And that's a shame. He was a good man, by all acounts, with some serious demons.

What about people with cancer who get depressed? Are they extra weak or extra strong or does it cancel out?

 d-usa wrote:
What about people with cancer who get depressed? Are they extra weak or extra strong or does it cancel out?

They cancer each outher out.

Sorry for the pun

I suffered from a major depression for more than 6 years when I was younger and I successfully battled cancer for the last few years - and am still recovering. I don't want to delve into such a discussion as I don't think that a tabletop forum is anywhere near suitable for such a discussion. Just one plea: don't "compare" those two diseases. Both are gakky. Absolutely, fething gakky. Yet they are different, a lot actually, and comparing those just because both are conditions that "suck", they feel differently.

Thanks =)

 MrDwhitey wrote:

I wish I could exalt this twice.

I did it for you, ouze!!

I was going to stay out of this side tangent, but it just lies at the very core of one of the problems we can address with his passing away.

It's about to get medical up in here, so here we go.

nkelsch wrote:

Lots of people don't 'die' of cancer... they die of complications of the chemo. Simple things like getting out of bed while in massive pain and walking for 10 minutes every hour can help one 'survive' chemo. You die from water in your lungs. You die from not circulating your blood in your extremities, you die by relying too much on painkillers. You die of low immune system. You die from falling down and breaking your hip due to low blood pressure. Simple acts of consciously enduring the pain and doing painful actions to prevent bed rot is crucial to survival.

The vast majority of people die from caner. Not from chemo. Not from "weak spirits". Not from any of that crap.

People die because the lesions spread to their brain, slowly cutting of the circulation until individual parts of their brain die and they don't remember how to do anything or no longer recognize the person they were married to for the last 40 years. The lesions grow and grow, compressing the brain until they have seizure after seizure, bashing their head into the floor and choking on their own secretions from biting their tongue or puking while dying covered in gak from their seizure and the entire time they are dying they are staring at their spouse for 30 years whom they no longer remember

People die because the lesions are wrapping around their spinal cord, slowly cutting their brain off from the rest of their body until their diaphragm no longer receives the message to breathe and they die from asphyxia while being fully conscious of what is happening. Others die because the cancer cut of their spinal cord from the rest of the body and they become quadriplegic and die from complications from that.

People die because the lesions are cutting through their bowels, and they can no longer receive nutrition of any kind or realize that they have cancer only after their stool already leaked into their abdominal cavity and poisoned them to death.

People die because the lesions invade the liver or the kidneys, killing the healthy cells one by one and cutting off the circulation until the organs no longer work and the body dies after days and weeks of poisoning itself.

I took care of a lady with lung cancer that was so severe that it was growing through her skin and outside her body, getting bigger and bigger until it eventually squeezed her heart to the extend that it could no longer pump any blood to her brain.

And yes, people also die because the pain keeps them in bed. The pain prevents them from participating in treatment. The pain prevents another round of chemo. But that doesn't mean that they are weak or don't have a "fighting spirit".

And in the exact same way, people suffering from mental illness die because of the disease. Because that is what mental illness is, a disease. It is a biological disease of the brain that affects how that organ works and has a very real and significant impact on the rest of your body. Despite the name of "mental" illness, it is a very real biological illness that requires real treatment. And it can kill people the same as cancer can kill people. Medications can restore the balance of the chemicals in the brain, and non-medical therapy doesn't "cure" depression as much as it teaches people how to adapt and live with it in the same way as physical therapy often doesn't take away the effects of cancer but teaches people how to adapt to their new physical limitations and live with them.

Cancer patients and mental health patients; neither group is stronger than the other. Both groups have people that die from it, both groups have people that kill themselves because they can no longer deal, and both groups have people who manage to make it through thanks to will power.

You are full of it if you don't think 'fighting spirit' absolutely has a role in chemotherapy and recovery from most serious hospitalized illnesses. You don't die of the illness, you die from lying in a bed and not doing anything.

Yet people with fighting spirit still die every single day. Because the disease is real and it kills. Either disease.

And different attitudes that are out there, expressed by posts such as yours, will keep people from seeking treatment. Because people who already feel down and weak and who have been beaten into submission by their brains read posts such as yours and realize that there are lots of people out there who don't believe that their disease is real and that people accuse them of not having "fighting spirit" or the willpower to just get over it. So they will not seek treatment, because doing that would only stigmatize them further and expose them to people who write stuff like what you wrote and then they will feel even weaker.

That's why we should use the fact that a man that has a well documented struggle with depression, who has received treatment and spoken out about it and who took his own lie after decades of fighting it, and use it to teach people that it is a real disease that can affect anybody and that it is never wrong to seek treatment for it and that they should not be judged for it. Let this be an opportunity to further raise awareness of the fact that mental illness is a real disease and that it can eat at you for decades like a cancer and kill you if you don't seek treatment. And like cancer it can kill you even with treatment.

But saying that people with depression should just have more willpower or more fighting spirit is as stupid as saying that people who have a heart attack should just have a heart that pumps blood more efficiently.

 d-usa wrote:

And different attitudes that are out there, expressed by posts such as yours, will keep people from seeking treatment. Because people who already feel down and weak and who have been beaten into submission by their brains read posts such as yours and realize that there are lots of people out there who don't believe that their disease is real and that people accuse them of not having "fighting spirit" or the willpower to just get over it. So they will not seek treatment, because doing that would only stigmatize them further and expose them to people who write stuff like what you wrote and then they will feel even weaker.

That's why we should use the fact that a man that has a well documented struggle with depression, who has received treatment and spoken out about it and who took his own lie after decades of fighting it, and use it to teach people that it is a real disease that can affect anybody and that it is never wrong to seek treatment for it and that they should not be judged for it. Let this be an opportunity to further raise awareness of the fact that mental illness is a real disease and that it can eat at you for decades like a cancer and kill you if you don't seek treatment. And like cancer it can kill you even with treatment.

But saying that people with depression should just have more willpower or more fighting spirit is as stupid as saying that people who have a heart attack should just have a heart that pumps blood more efficiently.

As someone with a father who doesn't believe mental illness exists bar "crazies", I exalt you for this.