Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The Interex: A technologically advanced race of humans that knew about Chaos and were able to resist, and even make use of it. They allied with various xenos races and reaped MANY benefits from these alliances. They had centaur shaped power armor, bows that fired bolts capable of punching through power armor, and automated drones with advanced AI, none of which the Imperium can replicate.

That tech is Imperial in origins, dating back to the DAoT and the Golden Age. The Interex didn't have anything that Mankind had not previously seen before, it simply had things that did not survive outside of their systems in M30.

However, none of that has anything to do with them as a people. They, like most dumb apes, relied on the superiority of their tools to see them endure and overcome in the face of adversity. Their tools failed them.

47-16: An advanced world with force fields and a large number of AI war machines

Given Humanity's experience with AI in previous eras, this was a society that, left on its own, would have been destroyed by its own machines.

Araneus Continuity: Had access to ancient Warp gates that let them safely warp travel and rule over six systems. Ruled by a "technonobility". Had xenos allies.

So do the Eldar, and look what happened to them. They also made the mistake of thinking they were bigger than the Imperium and challenging them in open combat.

Now, their homeworld is Necromunda.

Avenians- Abhumans capable of all kinds of weird architectural feats. Able to tame giant birds and use them in combat.

The ability to domesticate animals is not a sign of a great civilization, we've been doing that for 6,000+ year in real life.

Diasporex- A human and alien nomad civilization, good enough at naval warfare to give Imperial forces a run for their money

Good, but not good enough. Again, the dumb apes exterminated those which were weaker than them, in a perfect example of galactic Darwinism in action. It would seem that their alliances with the xenos had made them soft. However, the humans of the Diasporex were offered the option to leave their xeno allies behind and join with the Imperium.

They refused, and they suffered the consequences.

The ONLY advantages that the Imperium had over these civilizations were numbers and a far more militarized society. They were all doing just fine without Empy. Instead of trying to learn from them and form an alliance, the Emp destroyed EVERYTHING, because his "my way or the highway" attitude wouldn't allow him to make even the smallest concession.

That is because it is an Empire, not a democracy.

He didn't even have his troops recover any technology and try to reverse engineer it because he was either too dumb, too arrogant, or wanted to keep humanity ignorant and primitive so he could lord over it better. If the Emp had formed an alliance with these civilizations, humanity would be in far better shape today. AND WHY THIS DOGMATIC INSISTENCE ON GENOCIDE OF ALL INTELLIGENT ALIENS, EVEN THE ONES THAT WERE FRIENDLY?!

Partially untrue. The AdMech recovers and reverse-engineers Xeno and archaeotech devices all the time. This is, chiefly, their main drive, the recovery of Mankind's technology from the Golden Age.

It is Mankind's manifest destiny to rule the stars unopposed. Trust not the Xeno, for it will betray you in the end, as it had throughout the Age of Strife and the Dark Age of Technology and in even earlier eras as Mankind spread through the stars.

AI is banned because the last time Humanity had it (long before the Emperor revealed himself), it nearly exterminated the species. See also: Dune, Battlestar Galactica and Terminator.

You can argue about the Emp's goals all you want to, but before claiming that he was SOOOO much smarter and better than us plebes, maybe you should take a look at the results. His plan failed. It failed HARD. Chaos is not only still around, but stronger than ever. Half his chosen sons rebelled and actively serve Chaos. The other half fight for an Imperium that is almost the complete opposite of what he wanted, and even that is falling apart at the seams. He's a vegetable sitting on a golden toilet. Why couldn't he even maintain the trust and loyalty of the one closest to him? Why did he BLATANTLY IGNORE multiple warnings and obvious signs of the approaching Horus Heresy and get caught with his pants down?
If the Emp was SOOO smart, why did he so completely and utterly fail?

Because the general gist of the Heresy and its effects were written 25 years before this series of 40+ novels that are attempting to explain the whos, hows, whys and wherefores of the over-arching story. So they have a beginning and an end already set in stone. We already know who, of the major players, lives and dies. We know how the story ends... but now BL has the unenviable task of writing a series of novels based on fictional myths and legends, around people who are not recognizably human in any significant way, and make it interesting.

Things *have* to go badly to allow the setting of Warhammer 40,000 to exist. If they didn't, you might get the Emperor you're clamoring for, but then you wouldn't have Warhammer 40,000. You'd have Star Wars or Star Trek or Space Hippies or something.

 Psienesis wrote:

Things *have* to go badly to allow the setting of Warhammer 40,000 to exist. If they didn't, you might get the Emperor you're clamoring for, but then you wouldn't have Warhammer 40,000. You'd have Star Wars or Star Trek or Space Hippies or something.

Man... now I want to see Space Hippies: The Movie.

It would be just like this:

LordDavenport wrote:

 Ciciro wrote:
Because the smartest people tend to overthink things.

I wouldn't call the writers of GW the smartest people.

As I said some were in this conversation, all the problems I have with the emperor stem from limited design space and a predetermined end goal. The idea of an emperor on a throne was cool. The impirium is interesting and distopian. The stuff that people made up to give this history is generally terrible. I have yet to see any "ancient" history of 40k that I liked that wasn't fan made.

Eh, some of the stuff with the Primarchs was good. The Emperor is the one that gets hit worst by the HH books, because he has to do SO MANY things because the plot demands it, whether it makes sense or not. This, combined with the multiple writers makes for really messy characterization. This is why the Emperors plan is both insanely optimistic and incredibly cynical. This is why he's willing to make huge concessions for the backward and stagnating Adeptus Mechanicus, but won't make any such deals with the Interex. He doesn't do things because they make sense, he does what the plot demands. As a result, the ONLY in universe interpretation for his actions is that he is both unbelievably arrogant and not nearly as smart as he thinks he is.

If the Emperor were TRULY brilliant, he would have started a secret R+D department to advance human technology and knowledge as far as it would go, through studying xenos tech, other human civ tech, and copying down his own tech knowledge. Sure, some segments of the Mechanicus wouldn't like it, but they don't have to know until it's too late. Throwing all technology in your empire into the hands of a group that believes in total technological stagnation is a terrible idea that no genius would support. If the Emperor were TRULY brilliant he would have negotiated with other advanced human and alien civilizations, even if it was just a front to learn as much as he could about them and get their tech before destroying them. If the Emperor were TRULY brilliant, he would have given more heed to the two separate times he was flat out told that Horus would betray him, once by one of his own sons who had no personal grudge against Horus. I'm not saying he had to execute Horus or anything, but he should have called him back to his side (without his legion) to make sure things were ok, and kept a close eye on him from then on. While Magnus should also have been investigated, he certainly shouldn't have picked the drunken, battle hungry guy with a personal grudge against Magnus to discipline the Thousand Sons. Russ was the absolute WORST man for the job. The obvious choice would be someone level headed and impartial, like Dorn or Vulkan. Even a traitor Primarch would've been worked out better.

Of course, if the Emperor had acted smart, the Horus Heresy wouldn't have happened the way it had to happen. That's the problem.

In my personal head canon, the Big E actually suffers from a mental condition similar to autism. He's very smart technically, but is completely hopeless when it comes to reading and understanding human (or alien) emotions. This is why he misreads everyone, including his own Primarchs, so horribly and comes off as a jerk so much. To me, it's the most sensible interpretation of his actions in the HH books. It just really bugs me that so many people insist that the Emperor was wonderful and brilliant and right about everything when literally everything in the 40k universe screams that this isn't the case.

That is one of the more amazing things I have ever seen.

 fallinq wrote:

In my personal head canon, the Big E actually suffers from a mental condition similar to autism. He's very smart technically, but is completely hopeless when it comes to reading and understanding human (or alien) emotions.

Although I imagine it's due to a different reason than autism, the whole aspect of the Emperor being completely hopeless when it comes to understanding human emotions was actually brought up in one of the earliest short stories. The priest figured that the reason was because the Emperor was so godly powered and long-lived that he was completely out of touch with anything on a personal level.

I like to think of the events of the great crusade and the Horus heresy as one giant gambit played by the emperor of mankind against the chaos gods, specifically Tzeentch, but in general against all of them. But because the emperor was still merely human he failed to see the counter being arrayed against him. Once Horus turned, the emperor was set on his heels and forced into a corner where he fell into the final trap. And everything that has happened since is the final feeble attempts to ward off a checkmate.

 fallinq wrote:

In my personal head canon, the Big E actually suffers from a mental condition similar to autism. He's very smart technically, but is completely hopeless when it comes to reading and understanding human (or alien) emotions. This is why he misreads everyone, including his own Primarchs, so horribly and comes off as a jerk so much. To me, it's the most sensible interpretation of his actions in the HH books. It just really bugs me that so many people insist that the Emperor was wonderful and brilliant and right about everything when literally everything in the 40k universe screams that this isn't the case.

Unless he has purposefully removed himself from emotion so that he can see his goals to the end. All that he is doing is for the good of humanity, but he knows that many will have to be lost along the way. If he had emotions like your average Joe, Terra might not have ever have been unified. It takes a bit of a monster to do what the Emperor has done all in all, but he still comes out smelling of roses. But he is what humanity needed, that one guiding compass to show the way.

Being far removed from the emotions of a normal human does not mean he should not be able to comprehend how they work. Knowing how to drive a car and knowing how a car functions are not the same thing. Even if the Emperor was beyond human feeling, if he were the master wonderful mega-genius that people make him out to be, he'd at least have a passing knowledge of basic human psychology.

The way he treated the Primarchs was plain idiotic if he had any hope for them to carry out his plan. Some, he gave big reasons to hate him in their very first meeting (Mortarion, Angron). Others, he ignored signs of problems (Magnus' magic, Lorgar's zealous nature, Angron's anger issues caused by the Butcher's Nails which he did not remove, Kurze's insanity - evident by his attempt to claw his own eyes out upon meeting the Emperor) that would be problematic later. He allowed many of them to develop bitter, sometimes violent, rivalries (Alpharius/Roboute, Perturabo/Dorn, Magnus/Russ, etc) which he did absolutely nothing to cure. He explained practically nothing to his sons other than "Do what I say because I'm the Emperor, and if you don't, you'll be killed".

The Emperor was the perfect human, possessed of practically indomitable physical and psychic might. He was also an egotistical, short-sighted idiot.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Being far removed from the emotions of a normal human does not mean he should not be able to comprehend how they work. Knowing how to drive a car and knowing how a car functions are not the same thing. Even if the Emperor was beyond human feeling, if he were the master wonderful mega-genius that people make him out to be, he'd at least have a passing knowledge of basic human psychology.

The way he treated the Primarchs was plain idiotic if he had any hope for them to carry out his plan. Some, he gave big reasons to hate him in their very first meeting (Mortarion, Angron). Others, he ignored signs of problems (Magnus' magic, Lorgar's zealous nature, Angron's anger issues caused by the Butcher's Nails which he did not remove, Kurze's insanity - evident by his attempt to claw his own eyes out upon meeting the Emperor) that would be problematic later. He allowed many of them to develop bitter, sometimes violent, rivalries (Alpharius/Roboute, Perturabo/Dorn, Magnus/Russ, etc) which he did absolutely nothing to cure. He explained practically nothing to his sons other than "Do what I say because I'm the Emperor, and if you don't, you'll be killed".

The Emperor was the perfect human, possessed of practically indomitable physical and psychic might. He was also an egotistical, short-sighted idiot.

He does comprehend how they work, he just doesn't care or feel the same way as you or I might. That's apparent in how he treats some of his sons, there is what can be almost described as affection and concern. You mention the meeting with Kurze for the first time and he tells him to be at peace, calming him, or the meeting with Perturabo.

I do agree with you in regards to his treatment of some of the Primarchs, but we do not know the whole story or what other conversations have been had between the Primarchs in addition to the ones we have been told of. We do not know how long he had spoken to Angron for before he was abducted. You could argue that Angron and Mortarion were wrong to hate him as he did save their lives, which could have been done out of love.

But yeah, in general, his parenting was rather poor. I think he was long sighted, as the whole uniting Terra/great Crusade shows us, but he was wrong in his trust that he put in his Sons. I guess he didn't quite realise quite how damaged some of them were and had hoped that they were as effective as they would have been if they had not been scattered.

He certainly made some er ... errors of judgement.

The Emperor was the perfect human, possessed of practically indomitable physical and psychic might. He was also an egotistical, short-sighted idiot.

That's redundant. You already said he was the perfect human. Being an egotistical, short-sighted idiot is part and parcel to humanity.

Awful parent yes but he did see the giant game.

The 1000 year stratigic map and giant goals no one in current era could even begin to calculate and achieve.

He could be as total jerk but had plans so huge, what is one planet on 1000 year galexy spanning plan to destroy chaos.

You know I know some parents tend to out of the affection they feel, are sometimes blind to their children's flaws. could it be that was part of the emperor's downfall?
Also regarding Pterbeuo himself, it's possiable it's all in his head. sometimes a kid feels that their sibling is favored even when they're not.

just a differnt way of looking at it.

Some sons yes.

Others he just let loose with no help to deal with issues.
They had massive issues yet vs what could have done he did not do much to help.

Kurze haunted by visions, half mad, half sane almost.

Angron, yes half mad and blood thirsty but basically left all those he considered a brother to die then expected to serve him.

And others. Bit of thought on handling things and their may never have been a heresy.

 Exergy wrote:
Do you think he might have been trying to make up for something?

I'd point you towards my thread titled "The Emperor's D Weapon" but it was taken down for being

INAPPROPRIATE

 Psienesis wrote:

The Emperor was the perfect human, possessed of practically indomitable physical and psychic might. He was also an egotistical, short-sighted idiot.

That's redundant. You already said he was the perfect human. Being an egotistical, short-sighted idiot is part and parcel to humanity.

Basically true, but it still needs to be said.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

He does comprehend how they work, he just doesn't care or feel the same way as you or I might. That's apparent in how he treats some of his sons, there is what can be almost described as affection and concern. You mention the meeting with Kurze for the first time and he tells him to be at peace, calming him

That's what you do to crazy people. You tell them to calm down, and then you give them a Legion of superhuman warriors and a fleet of ships to command and pretend everything is fine.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

I do agree with you in regards to his treatment of some of the Primarchs, but we do not know the whole story or what other conversations have been had between the Primarchs in addition to the ones we have been told of. We do not know how long he had spoken to Angron for before he was abducted. You could argue that Angron and Mortarion were wrong to hate him as he did save their lives, which could have been done out of love.

That's not the point. Regardless of whether or not The Emperor cared about them, his whole plan hinged on their loyalty. He seemed to go out of his way to give his sons reasons not to be loyal to him, without really noticing or caring.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
But yeah, in general, his parenting was rather poor. I think he was long sighted, as the whole uniting Terra/great Crusade shows us, but he was wrong in his trust that he put in his Sons. I guess he didn't quite realise quite how damaged some of them were and had hoped that they were as effective as they would have been if they had not been scattered.

He certainly made some er ... errors of judgement.

Exactly. Even though he is supposedly extremely intelligent and a master planner, he relied on the sons who proved themselves to have the personalities of rebellious teenagers at best, and raving lunatics at worst. He gave them repeated reasons to resent him, culminating in abandoning them without explaining why, and leaving Horus in charge - Horus, who many of the Primarchs felt was favoured by the Emperor over them. When Dorn and the much-maligned Perturabo had a dispute over who would oversee the defenses of the Imperial Palace, he appointed Dorn, and gave nothing to Perturabo in return.

When he was in psychic communication with Magnus, he could have ordered Magnus to come to Terra on his own. Instead he sent the one Primarch who hated Magnus more than any other, and did not tell Leman Russ (or anyone else) that Horus was a traitor, despite already knowing (which was his response to Magnus).

... and if the Emperor would be as perfect has his fluff would actually imply he is, the setting wouldn't exist at all. Chaos would be wiped out, the Great Crusade would be a huge success and you'd have a galaxy full of technologically progressed humans smashing tyranids left and right.

He failed because the setting needs him to fail. That's the only, sole reason he has his flaws he otherwise would not have.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
That's what you do to crazy people. You tell them to calm down, and then you give them a Legion of superhuman warriors and a fleet of ships to command and pretend everything is fine.

Eh, you do when it's what they were created to do.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

That's not the point. Regardless of whether or not The Emperor cared about them, his whole plan hinged on their loyalty. He seemed to go out of his way to give his sons reasons not to be loyal to him, without really noticing or caring.

Well he did give them his utmost trust by giving them a legion of thousands of killing machines and sent them off on their own to do his will, if that's not a reason for them to be loyal I don't know. It's not necessarily the Emperors fault if some decided to turn their backs on him. Horus had no real reason to go traitor. Nor did Perturabo or Mortarion or Fulgrim. Nor did Lorgar really, certainly both could have handled the situation before Monarchia better.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

Exactly. Even though he is supposedly extremely intelligent and a master planner, he relied on the sons who proved themselves to have the personalities of rebellious teenagers at best, and raving lunatics at worst. He gave them repeated reasons to resent him, culminating in abandoning them without explaining why, and leaving Horus in charge - Horus, who many of the Primarchs felt was favoured by the Emperor over them. When Dorn and the much-maligned Perturabo had a dispute over who would oversee the defenses of the Imperial Palace, he appointed Dorn, and gave nothing to Perturabo in return.

You can't keep 18 Sons happy all the time though, brothers will squabble and the Emperor had a galaxy spanning Empire to run. He could have handled certain Primarchs and situations better definitely. So i'm not disagreeing with you at all.

The dispute between Dorn and Perturabo wasn't over who could oversee the defenses, it was if the Defenses that Dorn had erected would be sufficient to stand against the Iron Warriors.

IA: Imperial Fists: One of Dorn's qualities was that he always, without fail, told the truth. On Schravann, the Iron Warriors won a great victory when they stormed the final refuge of the Badoon. They breached the defences and held while the other Legions carried the city beyond. During the victory feast, Horus proclaimed Perturabo the greatest master of siege warfare in the Crusade. Fulgrim, Primarch of the Emperor's Children then asked Dorn whether he thought even the defences of the Imperial Palace could resist the Iron Warriors. Dorn considered carefully and then said that he regarded the defences as being proof against any assault if well-manned. Perturabo flew into a rage and unleashed a torrent of vitriol at Dorn, accusations so unfounded that the onlookers were dumbstruck. After this the two rarely spoke, neither Legion serving in the same campaign again.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

When he was in psychic communication with Magnus, he could have ordered Magnus to come to Terra on his own. Instead he sent the one Primarch who hated Magnus more than any other, and did not tell Leman Russ (or anyone else) that Horus was a traitor, despite already knowing (which was his response to Magnus).

I'm in agreement with you here, I've always said why didn't the Emperor at least take heed of Magnus message and investigate. I'm not sure if the Emperor knew of Horus fall or not though. If he did, that makes the whole situation even worse. Is that in Thousand Sons?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Eh, you do when it's what they were created to do.

Evidently it did not work.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

You can't keep 18 Sons happy all the time though

But he didn't even try!

 Pilau Rice wrote:
The dispute between Dorn and Perturabo wasn't over who could oversee the defenses, it was if the Defenses that Dorn had erected would be sufficient to stand against the Iron Warriors.

Not sure where I got that from, then.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

I'm in agreement with you here, I've always said why didn't the Emperor at least take heed of Magnus message and investigate. I'm not sure if the Emperor knew of Horus fall or not though. If he did, that makes the whole situation even worse. Is that in Thousand Sons?

I haven't read it, so I don't know. I think they may have altered it so that the Emperor knew that there was a traitor, but not his identity. As far as I am aware, The Emperor's response was essentially "I know!" and then to berate him about using psychic powers. Even so, Magnus told him that it was Horus. Even if there was a good reason to send Leman Russ of all people to retrieve Magnus, he should have cautioned Russ about the presence of a traitor who may or may not be Horus. Horus, Warmaster and elder brother, the only person in the galaxy whose authority approached that of the Emperor himself. His response was to get angry at Magnus and then assume everything would be fine, because he's The Emperor and his plans always work.

EDIT: Furthermore, there's no reason why The Emperor didn't just open fire on Horus' flagship when the shields came down. Even if he wanted to save Horus, he could have just had the ship crippled.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

Evidently it did not work.

No and we know that, but how was the Emperor supposed to know at the time.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
But he didn't even try!

Honestly, do we really know. The Great Crusade went on for 200 years, do we have an account of every conversation or meeting the Emperor had with his Sons. No, we just have reports of the bad times and what irked some of the Primarchs.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

I haven't read it, so I don't know. I think they may have altered it so that the Emperor knew that there was a traitor, but not his identity. As far as I am aware, The Emperor's response was essentially "I know!" and then to berate him about using psychic powers. Even so, Magnus told him that it was Horus. Even if there was a good reason to send Leman Russ of all people to retrieve Magnus, he should have cautioned Russ about the presence of a traitor who may or may not be Horus. Horus, Warmaster and elder brother, the only person in the galaxy whose authority approached that of the Emperor himself. His response was to get angry at Magnus and then assume everything would be fine, because he's The Emperor and his plans always work.

Well, the Emperor told Russ to bring back Magnus back to Terra. Horus told Russ that there wasn't much point and to just eradicate them. But yep, at least warning Russ might have been an idea. But Russ had already had a warning, from one of his very own Sons.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

EDIT: Furthermore, there's no reason why The Emperor didn't just open fire on Horus' flagship when the shields came down. Even if he wanted to save Horus, he could have just had the ship crippled.

There's lots you could say is wrong with the Siege of the Palace. Why didn't Horus just virus bomb Terra from orbit etc.

A lot of the stuff The Emperor did during the Heresy is just totally inconsistent with what his character should be.

On top of all, the soulless warmonger he is constantly described as would have never hesitated or hold back on purpose against Horus.

You would be surprised what people will do for their children.

That child that laid your empire to ruins and killed his brother in front of your eyes?
No. Dredd is right here, it's the plot that forces E to act as he did. Free from the "has to be grimdark"-setting, he wouldn't be such an idiot in some regards.

 Psienesis wrote:
You would be surprised what people will do for their children.

You see, that's where I have problems with The Emperor.
The way he is described, he shouldn't simply be "people".

He either was the totally detached, calculating and intelligent above measure being without true humanity feelings left (to the point of being completely unable to relate with the human needs of his sons) he is always depicted as, OR he was the emotional guy that let his already lost forever son (who, above the other stuff, killed his other favourite son seconds before) obliterate his lifetime objective via beating him almost to death because "he had feelings for him". If we discard unlikely theories like The Emperor engineering the Heresy himself, I can hardly see a middle road here.

Also i'd like to point out that The Emperor was not only highly emotional but just blindly delusional as well if he was hoping to bring back Horus from the dark side. Let's say he see some sense, he repents and repudiate Chaos (if it was even possible for him without incurring in deadly consequences at that point). How are you gonna explain it to your loyalist sons? Good luck in convincing Russ, Dorn, Vulkan and company not only to have him back between them, but not to attack You and him with everything they had. The civil war after that would have literally left ashes of the Imperium, I guess.

Emperor is a literary joke. The perfect human, sum of the greatest shamans the Earth has ever known, a man so wise and enlightened, he can see through stars. And what does he want to do? MAIM! BURN! KILL!

Seriously, whoever thought it was a good idea to make the perfect human being akin to an overbearing, pompous, racist douchebag? He's just the Prime douchebag among the race of trillions douchebags.

 Judge Dredd wrote:

On top of all, the soulless warmonger he is constantly described as would have never hesitated or hold back on purpose against Horus.

I don't think it was supposed to be on purpose. If I recall correctly in the Bill King version it takes him a him a while to realise the trap that was laid for him (and then destroyed the Warmaster). He was subconsciously holding back which is entirely plausible in my opinion.

 Thairne wrote:
That child that laid your empire to ruins and killed his brother in front of your eyes?
No. Dredd is right here, it's the plot that forces E to act as he did. Free from the "has to be grimdark"-setting, he wouldn't be such an idiot in some regards.

It's the plot that forces everything in the setting to be as it is. This is not a point of argument, it simply "is what it is". Everything in 40K is the way it is because the "plot"... more specifically, the setting... demands that it be so.

I think what Thairne meant by "the plot" is that much of the fluff surrounding the Emperor and the Primarchs hinges on pre-ordained elements that are extremely difficult to work with. The modern writers could not simply have him open fire on Horus' flagship because the fight between The Emperor and Horus is such a long-standing and significant scene in the lore (disregarding The Emperor's death, as anything could have killed him).

I'm not saying that this makes it impossible for the writers to do a good job, though. It's not an excuse for it. They could have done a much better job at applying continuity between these disjointed events. Like LordDavenport said earlier, multiple conflicting sources are also to blame.

In the grimdark vein, it would be much more satisfying if The Emperor was written as a fundamentally normal human (although intelligent and possessed of lifetimes of experience), whose actions inadvertently caused his own downfall in ways he could not predict in a very Greek tragedy sort of way.

LordDavenport wrote:

Yes... it is very poorly written, by a really large number of people making it inherently self contradictory. To make it worse, the character of Emprah was built backwards from a stupid end point... so I have to forgive the writers for having a terrible job to do.

As he is written, The Emperor is an idiot who treated his sons terribly and hoped to solve his problems by blatantly ignoring them.

The whole element of him loving his sons conflicts with his downright cruelty towards several of them, especially Lorgar and Magnus, and ignorance of others, especially Alpharius.

Emperor isnt human, more like a human-Deamon or humunoclous whith phycic abilities, if you consider that he birthed from a ritual that sacrified psykers.so has superior complex like deamons have.That why he didnt liked religion , as that would me that was inferior ( so whith him humanity) to the God , thats why he didnt want thousand sons do sorcery as they will learn how make an Emperoe ( i havent read all HH novels so for that last one im not 100% sure , he may had other reasons).And as you know , none Chaos God says that is inferior to other thats why they called gods after all

Ok ill give 50 kazbillion dorahs to anyone that thinks they could guide and advise 20 sons, spread around the world, let alone universe. Whom you didnt meet till they were 20ish, and barely see after.
Yeah you told me to do what! haha thats going to go well.

Besides maybe it did turn out the way he wanted.