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So, as it happens, the internet is full of negativity with respect to a few choice units in the CSM codex, namely, Berzerkers, Chosen and Helbrutes. Incidentally, I own ALL of these things and don't have the money on hand to completely rework my army, so I play with all of these things anyways. What I do is run a group of 7 chosen with Kharn, screened for a turn by some cultists, and let a hellbrute w/ MM just kinda be himself. Given the amount of SM players who run scouting lists, I just go second when I can and most of the time, the other guys come to me.

Am I missing something?

People coming to you instead of just shooting Kharn and his Chosen to pieces is confusing.

The Hellbrutes become exponentially better with the Dataslates, but Im agreeing with you that Chosen are too expensive for what they're worth, Berzerkers are hilariously terrible in this Edition with their changes from last Dex actually being better (How the hell do you feth that up GW?)

CSM have a lot of problems, thinking about them makes me want to drink.

 Powerfisting wrote:
So, as it happens, the internet is full of negativity with respect to a few choice units in the CSM codex, namely, Berzerkers, Chosen and Helbrutes. Incidentally, I own ALL of these things and don't have the money on hand to completely rework my army, so I play with all of these things anyways. What I do is run a group of 7 chosen with Kharn, screened for a turn by some cultists, and let a hellbrute w/ MM just kinda be himself. Given the amount of SM players who run scouting lists, I just go second when I can and most of the time, the other guys come to me.

Am I missing something?

I don't play Chaos, but I think the Dataslates make Helbrutes a little better...I like the Helbrute Cult myself. I think it's nessisary to have two sqds of marines, and two blobs of cultists to have a good chance. Even the Hell Turkey, the one top notch unit got nefrfed. Adding in some heavy long ranges to mid range shooting seems to be a winning stratagem, along with enough Troops to grab and hold objectives....

I dunno, maybe that's why its taken 10,000 years and counting...bad codex ititis.

Helbrutes with Dataslates are pretty much the boss. A lot of the "crap" units people say Chaos have are actually go big or go home units which people seem to avoid.Let's look at Berserkers , they seem to be a very expensive not very good unit. However when you actually calculate their worth with banner and numbers they're well worth it. Same for Noise Marines. Sure Noise Marines are kind of "meh" however add in huge numbers and get a Steed to join them to give out flank they become a amazing unit. It's when you get into the big numbers and not small squad sizesthat the Elites shine. All the elites are go big or go home because when you get into the high points the PPM for what they do go down.

It's all about the combos. Everything comes down to the combos and bigger point investments.

Here's a great example

Noise Marines

10 Noise Marines, 8 w/ Sonic blasters, 8 w/ CC weapons, 1 w/ Blaster Master, Champion w/ Doom Siren, Icon of Excess

PPM : 28.1

Add 5 More Models w/ Sonic Blasters, CC

398

PPM : 26.1

Once you reach a point that you are paying 22 points a model to have Feel no Pain and their weaponry it get's kind of nice, now add a Level 2 Sorcerer w/ a Steed to them and outflank the entire squad. Roll up Sanctic to be a dick as well. So you get the chance to have a a Sorcerer that can feel no pain their way out of a Vortex.

So they're are these sweet "spots" worth of points and combos in the Chaos Codex game ,but it's hard to find them.

There's more synergy now with Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, and Dataslates. Which makes me hopeful for the future entries.


It's actually a beast of a mechanized army. I don't know to much that can deal with it being a mechanized force.

I mean it in a single Primary w/ Data Slate have 11 Walkers. More if your opponents are okay with more than one formation.

I'm curious how a list running a Kharnwagon land raider and Juggerlord + Spawn blob would pan out.

Don't forget Mutilators, Warptalons and Defilers, oh, and 1kSons.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
People coming to you instead of just shooting Kharn and his Chosen to pieces is confusing.

That was poorly worded and I'm not sure where I got that idea from, but the advantage of scouting tacticals is that it gets you into rapid fire range quickly, which is not a far cry from charging range.

Also, Kharn gets 7 S7 attacks on the charge, and chosen kitted out for melee get 5 attacks on the charge. 5*8 + 7= 47 attacks if they get the charge. that's a big if, but 47 attacks from 8 models! Let's assume something terrible happened, and 4 Chosen and Kharn survive. thats still 27 attacks from 5 models. That could potentially wipe out a combat squad.

...a lot can potentially wipe out a combat squad.

Kharn and my Khorne Chosen work really well in my games.

You know why?

Because I face an Ork player who loves melee as much as I do, and he rushes forward, eager to get fightin'.

Unfortunately, beyond games of this type, Kharn and his Khorne Chosen do not really work well at all.

 Powerfisting wrote:

That was poorly worded and I'm not sure where I got that idea from, but the advantage of scouting tacticals is that it gets you into rapid fire range quickly, which is not a far cry from charging range.

Also, Kharn gets 7 S7 attacks on the charge, and chosen kitted out for melee get 5 attacks on the charge. 5*8 + 7= 47 attacks if they get the charge. that's a big if, but 47 attacks from 8 models! Let's assume something terrible happened, and 4 Chosen and Kharn survive. thats still 27 attacks from 5 models. That could potentially wipe out a combat squad.

I understand, but when faced with an assault deathstar, my tactical decision making leads me to not enter rapid fire range.

The ones you mentioned are okay units, just not the first thing people choose. Helbrutes in 7th are actually pretty nice. Berzerkers are good at what they do if supported properly, and chosen are a jack of all trades. Mutilators are too easy to tarpit and move around, warptalons are extremely overpriced, and defilers are only so bleh because we got forgefiends who are less flexible but pack a bigger whallop for a smaller price tag.

People really have to stop ignoring Mechanized Rush Chaos it's very powerful and Khorne Berserkers can be made powerful with weirdly enough Sanctic Powers.

I love my KB! You know why? They beat the tar out of WHATEVER they assault!

x10 KB with CA on the charge gives you 41 s5 ap4 attacks

and they always do the assaulting thanks to their handy dandy LR

Iv killed units of carnifexs like this as well as having a single KB assault a DE ravager and blow it up!

As said before KB are all or nothing troops and that's how you HAVE to play with them for them to be effective

What you might miss is that most "this unit sucks" comments on the internet should be read in the context of competitive play. This means you assume players of equal (high) skill that are building lists with unlimited resources and have consistent winning as the primary concern. In this context chosen are one or two points too expensive per model, berzerkers too difficult to get in CC and helbrutes are just a tad too unreliable. If this is not your environment, I wouldn't worry. These units are ok and often provide good fun!

Khorne Berserkers are a tough one to deal with but you can make them a beast of a unit if you support them. What blows my mind is that Chosen have 1 more attack than them.


I'm rethinking my opinions on Chosen.

I mean
10 "regular" Khorne Berserkers, w/ Icon of Wrath = 215
40 attacks , Rage and +1 for CC weapon / They are fearless


10 Chosen w/ Mark of Khorne and Icon of Wrath 220 points
50 Attacks, but have WS 4.

I'd put it at the chosen every time as thy have more options to buy equipment than the Berserkers,

I quite like chosen, but mostly for the six plasma guns in a squad tactic as opposed to using them in melee. But maybe if you duke them out for combat and stick them with a fearless Lord then maybe it will work out okay.

If I am using a chosen assault unit I usually include a dark apostle for the rerolls. I have found that this makes a huge difference. 9 chosen MoK banner + DA in a land raider with the dirge caster does alright.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I'm curious how a list running a Kharnwagon land raider and Juggerlord + Spawn blob would pan out.

I'm thinking you could triple up on goofiness.

Run 3 packs of Nurgle Spawn. 2 of them get Nurgle Biker Lords w/ Sigil, Blight Grenades, Fist / Claw combo, and whatever other doodads you want. This all racks in at under 800 pts. Add 3 Maulerfiends for 375 pts then sprinkle min Plague Marine squads in Rhinos w/ Melta Guns.


Super aggressive play style. At 1,500 pts you're running 15 Spawn, 2 Biker Lords, 2 squads of Plague Marines, and 3 Mauler Fiends. Basically a turn 2 charge is almost guaranteed since nothing is really slowed by terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gigasnail wrote:
...a lot can potentially wipe out a combat squad.

And...this. A naked Russ costs 1/3 the price of that unit and could potentially wipe a combat squad without having to cross the table to do it. Defilers are about half the cost and just as much threat IMO.



Looking at CSM, it seems like our main advantage is, oddly enough, speed. We've got numerous units that can reliably assault T2. Now that Come The Apocalypse allies are pretty standard issue, I'm actually thinking that Space Marine or Space Wolf allies would be pretty awesome for Drop Pod support.

At 1850, imagine the above army with a buffed up Space Marine Chapter Master (?) and a unit with a bunch of Special Weapons drop podding in your opponent's face T1. What does he do...go after the guys getting out of the pod or worry about the 3 units of Spawn and 3 Maulerfiends bearing down on him?

It's like I've stated before, the elites are only as good when you get into really high numbers. then it's super efficient.

Like Chosen are actually pretty decent basic troopers.

Sure they're 17 points but you get an extra attack, 4 attacks a and can get way more versatility.

Them losing infiltrate hurt tremendously.

I never take elite slots.. Unless I don't feel like taking a Lord of X and want Noise Marines or Plague Marines for some crazy reason. I will always fill my Elite Slots with Decimators. They are simply too good to pass up and are relatively cheap for what they bring.

CSMs strengths are in their CC and low costed Las Cannon spamming. 3 Tri-Las-Preds only costs 420 points. That's pretty good for heavily bursting down a tough target. Our Fast Attack slot isn't bad but it sure could be better. Back to Heavy Support, we honestly have too many Loyalist variant garbage units. The LR while nice and cheap is pigeon holed into being vanilla and arguably useless (Can be a DT for terminators if you plan on sinking points into them...) The Forgefiend / Maulerfiend will pretty much die to the plethora of other Walkers / MCs out there because of their terrible WS (Seriously, why the hell do the machines that are built to main and murder, suck in CC and hit Guardsmen on 4s?!) Look, I get it, you don't want Chaos to be good at anything in particular. But if GW wants to force crap down our throats like fancy new Daemon Engines, could they at least make them good at what they do?

In no way could anyone ever possibly conceive such a half assed codex aside GW for CSM. These guys are supposed to be unique from their Loyalist counterparts. Yet every year they become more and more homogenized and the two butt heads in a never ending cycle of topping SMs off with what CSM were unique with. Look at what Centurions basically gave. The bloody things are effectively Obliterator clones for the sake of simply giving the Loyalist players something bulky to fart around with (They still look awful and aren't as flexible, but were they really needed? You could have just given Dreads a Grav-Cannon)

And they STILL haven't added any Ectoplasma-Cannons / Demonic Possession buffs. Ectoplasma should retain the 36" range every other Plasma variant has. Why gimp us further? Why the hell do Warp Smiths suck so bloody much at repairing Demonically Possessed vehicles? You'd think after paying 20 bloody points to make a Tank less effective at shooting that a Warp Smith might actually be able to repair it better. And since when did turning something into a Daemon not confer the bloody Daemon USR? Why Can't I take a chance in DSing a Chaos Predator with Daemonic Possession? Why can't it have a 5++ with that amazing 20 point upgrade I gave it, forcing it to drop it's BS to 3 from 4?

I kind of agree with the whole Elite slots thing, it's literally just to much. Chosen especially lose to almost allthe other units because other than the ability to take 5 special weapons they have really no other bonus really.Previously they had infiltrate or some special USR and now they don't.


The supplement codexes and the ability to ally with Daemons has helped somewhat but not really. However I do disagree with the codex being terrible it's just different and different attitude.

The Elite slot for Chaos really is a bloated mess.

I can't even imagine the Mutilators having any choices whatso ever that is such a insanely terrible unit along with possessed ( which can be alright if their crimson slaughter)

One thing I missed at first is that the Elites don't pay the 10 point Champion tax. If playing MSU that's actually a big deal.

5 CSM cost 75 pts which is actaully 15 pts per wound. Add an extra CCW and they are at 85 pts total or 17 per wound.

5 Chosen cost 90 pts, so you pay 1pt per model for +1A and +1 Ld compared to similarly kitted CSM.

I'm not a fan of plasma chosen. Once more the points per wound goes to terminator levels. If you want a multi plasma unit havocs or terminators are a better deals.

I do like the fact that Chosen can take "hidden" (as in non-suicidal) power weapons. That pushes the cost to terminator levels, so if you feel you need more than one, getting terminators might be a better deal.

I think my favourite build with Chosen is 4-5 flamers and 1-2 power weapons. This unit is a beast up close. "Only" problem is, as always with CSM, delivery...

Guardianofthegalazy wrote:

I mean
10 "regular" Khorne Berserkers, w/ Icon of Wrath = 215
40 attacks , Rage and +1 for CC weapon / They are fearless

too early for thinking

We need to make a new Chaos and Chaos Daemons in 7th edition tactica thread. I'll do it eventually, but the two armies have huge synergy now and I don't think people realize it. Wish more people considered Forgeworld legit.

I've secretly got some chaos models in a bitz box, and have been thinking long and hard about a Kharn list, the things is.....my local group has about 12 guys, and I can't think of one of them who would let Kharn get near them.

I've been puttering around with a buddies CSM book and it just seems to me, all their crap is way too expensive compared to what our local SM/SW/DA players bring and while there is some good flexibility across the book, individual units appear less flexible, with nurgle seeming to be the one "mono-themed" army I could see being effective.

I dunno. Though you guys make good points and maybe I'll give up thinking too hard about it and just dive in and make a 1000pts list. Worst case, it sucks and I wasted money on a Kharn and a box of zerkers who look fun as hell to paint anyway.

I hashed out a 1500 based on my previous musings. Kharn + 9 zerkers in an LR, Juggerlord + 5 MoK Spawn, 2x Maulerfiends, 10x CSM + MoK + 2x Flamers + CCWs in rhino, 16x cultists. 1500 and reeeeally quick / assaulty.

I'd like to see more armies with bounce tactics that are available now to us with Sanctic and being able to easily cast it with a spell familiar. You get it on the first or second roll and you can go for something else. Sanctuary adds +1 to cover save and the Nova power isn't terrible either and Vortex is awesome last ditch effort spell. and having the ability to cast gate 99% of the time.

Rhino Rush by Black Legion is pretty sweet
7 Man Mark of Khorne, Chosen Squad w/ 1 Flamer, 2 Melta Gun in a Rhino 180

Chosen are not a terrible unit especially once they become a troop choice. They're just super individualistic unit meaning they serve one purpose.

Even Maulerfiends are not terrible the Chaos Space Marine codex has units it that make no sense in a CSM
but make perfect sense in a Chaos Daemon army.

Like Mutilators

Chosen are kinda like Defilers; they have these weird specializations in completely different areas. Chosen get those base 3 attacks and great leadership, but have access to all the heavy weaponry in the chaos arsenal, and can stick 6 special weapons in there. They get any melee weapon they want, but on a fragile marine body with no special saves or mobility.

This is kind of a theme with a lot of Chaos Marine stuff. Helbrutes, Chosen, Defilers, Noise Marines, Warpsmiths, and prolly a few others I'm forgetting, all are kitted out with weird simultaneous branching paths in both melee and ranged. Unlike an army such as Eldar, where every unit is a specialized tool for a specific job, Chaos Marines all want to be jack of all trades.

And honestly, this might be a strength. In the current meta, it pretty much is impossible to completely plan for all the myriad armies and lists that could be thrown at you, there's just too much out there with new dataslates and alternate codices coming out constantly. A bunch of flexible Chaos mans with a weapon for every occasion might be the new way to go.

 Badablack wrote:
Chosen are kinda like Defilers; they have these weird specializations in completely different areas. Chosen get those base 3 attacks and great leadership, but have access to all the heavy weaponry in the chaos arsenal, and can stick 6 special weapons in there. They get any melee weapon they want, but on a fragile marine body with no special saves or mobility.

This is kind of a theme with a lot of Chaos Marine stuff. Helbrutes, Chosen, Defilers, Noise Marines, Warpsmiths, and prolly a few others I'm forgetting, all are kitted out with weird simultaneous branching paths in both melee and ranged. Unlike an army such as Eldar, where every unit is a specialized tool for a specific job, Chaos Marines all want to be jack of all trades.

And honestly, this might be a strength. In the current meta, it pretty much is impossible to completely plan for all the myriad armies and lists that could be thrown at you, there's just too much out there with new dataslates and alternate codices coming out constantly. A bunch of flexible Chaos mans with a weapon for every occasion might be the new way to go.

The problem is that it is generally far too easy for the specialists, especially the shooting specialists, to force the allrounders to play on their terms.