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 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 MordorMiniatures wrote:
John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Think about that... or reply for questions

I've already thought about it...and came to the conclusion that I want nothing to do with a sadistic, jealous god who...

-decides to kill the entire human race bar one single family when hes decided that his children are totally F.U.B.A.R. as a result of his piss poor parenting skills.
- sends his only son to be brutally sacrificed
-demands human sacrifice of ones own children even if just as a loyalty test (Abraham and Isaac)
- inflicts plague and borderline genocide onto a people unlucky enough not to be God's Chosen people (plagues of Egypt), instructs his Chosen people to invade a country and commit genocide (Joshua - my namesake - and the Israelites invading the Holy Land, Jericho etc).
-etc etc

This is not intended to be bait. I was raised a Christian, chose to be baptised at 13, but eventually began applying logic and critical thinking to Christianity and other religions (especially Islam) and now at the age of 23 I'm a-theist. The Bible attributes a lot of nasty stuff to God that leads me to conclude that God as described by the Bible (and especially the Quran) is a deeply unpleasant character.

And thats all assuming that he actually exists.

Well, to be fair, the characteristics attributed to God in the Old Testament and God in the New Testament are extremely different.

Fair enough. I just recall my own loss of faith wasn't something I really sought, and wouldn't wish to cause that pain to anyone before they were ready for it and explicitly seeking it.

Too bright for our infirm delight, the truth's superb surprise.
The Truth must dazzle gradually, or every man be blind.
Emily Dickinson

 Hordini wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 MordorMiniatures wrote:
John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Think about that... or reply for questions

I've already thought about it...and came to the conclusion that I want nothing to do with a sadistic, jealous god who...

-decides to kill the entire human race bar one single family when hes decided that his children are totally F.U.B.A.R. as a result of his piss poor parenting skills.
- sends his only son to be brutally sacrificed
-demands human sacrifice of ones own children even if just as a loyalty test (Abraham and Isaac)
- inflicts plague and borderline genocide onto a people unlucky enough not to be God's Chosen people (plagues of Egypt), instructs his Chosen people to invade a country and commit genocide (Joshua - my namesake - and the Israelites invading the Holy Land, Jericho etc).
-etc etc

This is not intended to be bait. I was raised a Christian, chose to be baptised at 13, but eventually began applying logic and critical thinking to Christianity and other religions (especially Islam) and now at the age of 23 I'm a-theist. The Bible attributes a lot of nasty stuff to God that leads me to conclude that God as described by the Bible (and especially the Quran) is a deeply unpleasant character.

And thats all assuming that he actually exists.

Well, to be fair, the characteristics attributed to God in the Old Testament and God in the New Testament are extremely different.

I hate retcons.

Killing is, according to God, a sin.

The history of christianity, from beginning to present day, is drenched in blood.

I don't get it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Killing is, according to God, a sin.

The history of christianity, from beginning to present day, is drenched in blood.

I don't get it.

Not killing. Murder. It's two different things.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Killing is, according to God, a sin.

Not quite. Murder is a sin. Justified killing, on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable. For example, when god orders his chosen people to conquer their enemies and slaughter everyone (complete with smashing babies on the rocks) it's an act of virtue.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Killing is, according to God, a sin.

The history of christianity, from beginning to present day, is drenched in blood.

I don't get it.

To err is human.

Christianity has also given homes to the homeless and preserved more knowledge during the Dark Ages than anyone else. It's easy to bash religion, why not try to find something good it's done as well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:


Not quite. Murder is a sin. Justified killing, on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable. For example, when god orders his chosen people to conquer their enemies and slaughter everyone (complete with smashing babies on the rocks) it's an act of virtue.

Similar to how killing thousands in the name of America is considered heroism, yeah.

Peregrine wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Killing is, according to God, a sin.

Not quite. Murder is a sin. Justified killing, on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable. For example, when god orders his chosen people to conquer their enemies and slaughter everyone (complete with smashing babies on the rocks) it's an act of virtue.

...I guess I get the logic but I still don't agree.

Void__Dragon wrote:
To err is human.

Christianity has also given homes to the homeless and preserved more knowledge during the Dark Ages than anyone else. It's easy to bash religion, why not try to find something good it's done as well?

Oh, certainly, I am not painting all christians with one brush. I am no fan of religion but hey, whatever keeps their watercraft on the surface.

I know something good it has done, it's done my grandmother happier!

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It's easy to bash religion, why not try to find something good it's done as well?

List of things that have been done by religion that couldn't have been done by secular groups or ideologies:

{empty space}

 MordorMiniatures wrote:
John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

He got his son back though, and he knew he was always going to get his son back.

You want to talk about amazing sacrifice, think about the guy who gives up his life for another person not knowing if there's anything for him on the other side.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Killing is, according to God, a sin.

The history of christianity, from beginning to present day, is drenched in blood.

I don't get it.

Except when God tells you to do it, apparently.

 Peregrine wrote:


Not quite. Murder is a sin.

I have only read the bible in Swedish. It said 'Du skall icke dräpa'. ('Thou shalt not slay.')

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 MordorMiniatures wrote:
John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Think about that... or reply for questions

I have always been confused by this. I do not see the love. He sacrificed his son for us. But, he is god, so he didn't need to do that at all. He just kind of needs to want us all saved and poof, we are saved. Seems like a bunch of needless drama and a wasted life.

This might go some way towards answering your statement:

http://jesuschrist.lds.org/his-life-and-teachings/articles/the-atonement-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng

 Ashiraya wrote:
I have only read the bible in Swedish. It said 'Du skall icke dräpa'. ('Thou shalt not slay.')

It says "kill" in most English translations, but it's usually interpreted as "kill people that god doesn't approve of killing".

 sebster wrote:

 MordorMiniatures wrote:
John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

He got his son back though, and he knew he was always going to get his son back.

You want to talk about amazing sacrifice, think about the guy who gives up his life for another person not knowing if there's anything for him on the other side.

There was definite sacrifice. Taking the penalty upon himself for all the sins that ever were or would be committed as well as feeling all the pain that everyone would ever experience was the most difficult, horrific, and loving thing ever done.

 Peregrine wrote:
But I want to damage faith. I want to destroy it utterly and would be absolutely happy if something I said caused someone to abandon their religion.

Don't be that guy. No one likes that guy, even other atheists. No one likes a zealot with an agenda.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It's easy to bash religion, why not try to find something good it's done as well?

List of things that have been done by religion that couldn't have been done by secular groups or ideologies:

{empty space}

Aiding in the eternal salvation of people.

Ten foot poles, get your Ten foot poles here. Only 5$

Relapse wrote:
Aiding in the eternal salvation of people.

There isn't even the slightest bit of evidence that this "eternal salvation" exists, so let's limit this to real-world things? Otherwise we might as well start talking about how much Peregrinism has done to aid in eternal salvation.

 Peregrine wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Aiding in the eternal salvation of people.

There isn't even the slightest bit of evidence that this "eternal salvation" exists, so let's limit this to real-world things? Otherwise we might as well start talking about how much Peregrinism has done to aid in eternal salvation.

To say there is no evidence means that there is no evidence that you are willing to accept.

 Peregrine wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Aiding in the eternal salvation of people.

There isn't even the slightest bit of evidence that this "eternal salvation" exists, so let's limit this to real-world things? Otherwise we might as well start talking about how much Peregrinism has done to aid in eternal salvation.

You mean I should stop worshipping you?

Relapse wrote:
To say there is no evidence means that there is no evidence that you are willing to accept.

Just like there's no evidence for Peregrinism that you're willing to accept. By objective standards (IOW, not "I really want to believe that my religion is true so I'll automatically accept anything that agrees with it") no religion has more evidence behind it than Peregrinism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
You mean I should stop worshipping you?

Of course not! And you certainly shouldn't stop giving me 10% of your income.

 Peregrine wrote:

Relapse wrote:
To say there is no evidence means that there is no evidence that you are willing to accept.

Just like there's no evidence for Peregrinism that you're willing to accept. By objective standards (IOW, not "I really want to believe that my religion is true so I'll automatically accept anything that agrees with it") no religion has more evidence behind it than Peregrinism.

The verse about judging a tree by it's fruit comes to mind.


https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1985/10/by-their-fruits-ye-shall-know-them?lang=eng

Relapse wrote:
The verse about judging a tree by it's fruit comes to mind.

It comes to mind, but it doesn't have anything to do with the question of whether eternal salvation exists at all.

Also, citing a bunch of bible verses isn't a very persuasive argument unless you already believe that the bible is true. If you consider it a work of fiction, like I (and many other people) do then quoting from it is about as useful as quoting from the Book of Peregrinism.

If you look at what your question was though, about your own private religion having validity, that verse answers it quite well.

I've waffled between atheist and agnostic my whole life. I'm generally willing to concede that there may be a deity of some sort.

My biggest sticking point is when it comes to specific religions. How someone can pick one in particular and say "Yep, this one is right. All the others have got it wrong." I'd actually like to hear some answers from true believers on that one.

Relapse wrote:
If you look at what your question was though, about your own private religion having validity, that verse answers it quite well.

Except it doesn't, because "judging a tree by its fruit" has nothing to do with truth vs. fiction. Nazism is clearly a tree that produced horrifyingly evil fruit, but you'd have to be insane to claim that it never existed. Similarly, whether religion produces good or evil in the world has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the eternal salvation that it promises actually exists. And when you look at the question of "does this exist" you find that the eternal salvation promised by Peregrinism has just as much evidence behind it as the eternal salvation promised by any other religion.

 Peregrine wrote:

Relapse wrote:
If you look at what your question was though, about your own private religion having validity, that verse answers it quite well.

Except it doesn't, because "judging a tree by its fruit" has nothing to do with truth vs. fiction. Nazism is clearly a tree that produced horrifyingly evil fruit, but you'd have to be insane to claim that it never existed. Similarly, whether religion produces good or evil in the world has absolutely nothing to do with the eternal salvation that it promises actually exists. And when you look at the question of "does this exist" you find that the eternal salvation promised by Peregrinism has just as much evidence behind it as the eternal salvation promised by any other religion.

Neither do I claim Nazism ever existed. What gives you the idea that I do?

I'll start using this quote of the scriptures by Newel B. Stevenson:


"Paul taught the Corinthians that it was only through the Spirit that one could know that the gospel was true. “God hath revealed [the truth of the gospel] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God,” he wrote, adding that “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Cor. 2:10, 14.)

There are examples in the sciptures of people seeing miracles, Angels, and of course talking face to face with Jesus Christ, and still not believing.

One of my favorite scriptures is from 1 Kings:

“And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:

“And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

“And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?” (1 Kgs. 19:11–13.)


In the end, you have to be willing to honestly seek for your answers by questioning not only secularists but spiritual authorities, study scripture, ponder it closely, pray about what you seek, and open yourself to the possibility of the truth of God's existence and the fact that you are loved and a sacrifice was made on your behalf.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It's easy to bash religion, why not try to find something good it's done as well?

List of things that have been done by religion that couldn't have been done by secular groups or ideologies:

{empty space}

List of things actually done by religion that wasn't actually done by secular groups or ideologies:

Preserved the largest amount of knowledge during the Dark Ages, and founded universities and places of learning that still exist today, to include the oldest universities on the planet.

Encouraged and provided funding for all all kinds of architects, artists, and musicians whose works are still famous and influential today.

Provided medical care and trained physicians. Aided the poor, the sick, and travelers in large numbers.

Furthered the study of mathematics, particularly Algebra, as well as the study of astronomy.

 Peregrine wrote:
Nazism ...

Thank you for needlessly invoking Godwin's law.