Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Howdy folks,

I have a fair amount of painting experience and normally prime my models using a spray-on primer. Recently, I have been dealing with parts that have no base to hold them by, such as the fronts of heavy bolters and heavy flamers that I am using to put together a 40K Astra Militarum Basilisk (grey plastic).

In order to avoid the setup problems and missed areas when spraying small parts with a spray primer, I used the Citadel Imperial Primer to prime the models (grey plastic). It brushed on quite thinly and ended up with a slightly glossy finish. All seemed well and good until I came to it the next morning and tried to paint it. What I found is that the primer sloughs off like a thin film as soon as I start painting using a Citadel pot of base paint.

Is there some procedure required in order for Citadel Imperial Primer to firmly attach to the model while painting? Or is there a serious fundamental problem with Imperial Primer?

Well either your pot is from a bad batch or you didn't stir it enough. IP really sets down and needs some harsh stirring to get back to proper consistensy.
You most likely did this already, but I at least
can't think of any other reasons... :/

Normally when I use the Imperial Primer, I give it a good shake for about 15 seconds or so. It becomes a little bit more difficult to use because it becomes very foamy at this point.

I have the parts soaking in water and alcohol mouth wash, so I'll be able to give it another try when I get home.

Thanks for the advice, perhaps the primer separates much more easily than what I'm used to (paint pots), and I did not give it sufficient shaking.

Could just be oil/grease on the parts. A pre-wash in warm soapy water, rinse and blow-dry and they should be good. Apologies if this teaching grandma to suck eggs...

I don't think you can really shake IP. When I used it it had a pretty tar-like consistency. Shaking this didn't do jack, I had to get a toothpick out and stir the pot for at least a minute to get a somewhat good consistency back.

It's ok when stirred well, but you really need clean, grease-free surfaces to put it on. Personally I'd just drill small holes and mount parts on cocktails sticks then spray / airbrush prime. Saves time and headaches.

Snapshot wrote:
Could just be oil/grease on the parts. A pre-wash in warm soapy water, rinse and blow-dry and they should be good. Apologies if this teaching grandma to suck eggs...

I'll give this a go as well. Normally I cut models from the frame, remove molding lines, file down hard-to-reach mold lines, fill in flaws with liquid greenstuff, give the model a good bushing, and then prime. Despite having done many models, I have never actually washed them, I just assumed that they come out of the box clean and that as long as my hands stay clean they should be fine.

This Citadel Imperial Primer, however, seems to be especially sensitive to conditions, so anything I can do to make use of it is worth a shot. I have also been having mixed luck with Citadel Thick Plastic Glue, sometimes it works great, other times the parts just fall apart. Perhaps the same residue on the plastic from the molding process interferes with the plastic glue?

I only use Imperial Primer for filling in places that get missed or when the spray doesn't get into some of the areas of pewter/finecast. Really only in spots that no one is going to really see or look for. Other than that I've found it to be pretty worthless for the reasons you've identified.
Shaking, stirring, cleaning, etc...seems to have little effect on the coat I get from the primer. As a poster above stated, now I just use pins and sticks to hold up the pieces and spray away. Additionally, I took bamboo skewers and duct taped small electrical clamps to the end and those work really well.

I've also had issues with the thick plastic glue; when it first came out I used it and my models started falling apart. The glue never caused the normal "bond" of melting the plastic, and when I started pulling models apart it appeared the adhesive had gone all bubbly and crusty. It's a shame, because until the new thick/thin glues came out, GW's stuff was really good.
Now I use Humbrol Poly Cement, and it is the best stuff I've ever used. It even comes in fine applicator bottles. And it's cheaper.

 madric wrote:

Snapshot wrote:
Could just be oil/grease on the parts. A pre-wash in warm soapy water, rinse and blow-dry and they should be good. Apologies if this teaching grandma to suck eggs...

I'll give this a go as well. Normally I cut models from the frame, remove molding lines, file down hard-to-reach mold lines, fill in flaws with liquid greenstuff, give the model a good bushing, and then prime. Despite having done many models, I have never actually washed them, I just assumed that they come out of the box clean and that as long as my hands stay clean they should be fine.

This Citadel Imperial Primer, however, seems to be especially sensitive to conditions, so anything I can do to make use of it is worth a shot. I have also been having mixed luck with Citadel Thick Plastic Glue, sometimes it works great, other times the parts just fall apart. Perhaps the same residue on the plastic from the molding process interferes with the plastic glue?

My experience with all of the Citadel glues is that they are rubbish. The plastic ones occasionally work if the planets are aligned correctly (this tends to be true of all non-toxic plastic cements). The brush-on thin superglue seems like it cures on the brush ASAP (becoming useless) and the thick just magnifies the usual problems with superglue (re: brittleness).

I've tried 3 different pots of the Imperial Primer. Last I remember, it has "meh" tooth, you had to stir it for 1-5 minutes and you basically couldn't touch the model directly after applying it.

Also, you got Liquid Greenstuff to fill in gaps? What incantations did you use?

For what its worth, im having the same issues on a resin bloodthirster.
I picked up another pot yesterday and all seems good now, so maybe just a weird batch?

Although, ive had issues with a few of the paints (Nuln oil mainly) in the new set.



Liquid GS is amazing when you get used to using it and really saves a ton of time.
Really good for removing join lines in anything from arms to panels on tanks.

 LoH wrote:
Also, you got Liquid Greenstuff to fill in gaps? What incantations did you use?

I've had many trial and error projects with liquid greenstuff, and here is what I have learned:
* Liquid Greenstuff shrinks considerably when it is moistened, it should NEVER be used in a "liquid" like state.
* Liquid Greenstuff will not stick without a bit of moisture in it.
* The most effective consistency appears to be a paste-like texture. If your liquid green-stuff is new, you may use it as-is. If it is slightly old, get a small blob out of the pot with a pallet knife and just touch it with a bit of water, enough to moisten it and press it a few times until it becomes a paste.
* Once you have the greenstuff paste, use a pallet knife or the rubbery end of the mold line scraper to fill in a pit. Apply enough so that there is a small mound over the pit, as the greenstuff will shrink as it dries. This mound is very brittle and will fall out unless you handle it carefully.
* Using a damp brush, moisten the mound, which will cause it to adhere much more strongly to the model.
* Wait for the greenstuff to dry (which can be a long time), and use a file to make the filling flush with the model's surface.

Liquid Greenstuff is NOT a fast solution in my opinion, it takes a lot of time and can greatly slow down the model assembly process. This is especially painful when working with Finecast models, which are typically marred by a number of pits and bubbles that frequently do not show up until mold line removal or filing.

Quick update on the Imperial Primer.

I had time to scrub off my previous attempt using the primer after letting the models soak in water with a little bit of mouthwash and I had a few observations:
* Both super glue and plastic glue bonds were breaking, nearly every glued part came undone.
* The Imperial Primer brushed off very easily with the plastic brush and a bit of mild liquid soap.
* The few spots that I had painted the acrylic paint directly on the plastic (because the Imperial Primer sloughed off) were significantly harder to remove than the Imperial Primer itself.

I'll have more time tomorrow, and I'm really hoping that cleaning and shaking up the bottle makes a HUGE difference, because right now, Imperial Primer seems extremely poor at doing its job, worse than direct application of paint.

Which sounds pretty games-workhopy to me..
But it being THAT bad is new. I still think you had only some coloured medium on your brush.

 Thairne wrote:
Which sounds pretty games-workhopy to me..
But it being THAT bad is new. I still think you had only some coloured medium on your brush.

Thank you for your very prudent advice Thairne! I went back, made more careful observations, and acted upon your explanation.

At first I started shaking the Imperial Primer vigorously when I felt that there wasn't as much liquid moving around as I expected. Thinking something might be wrong, I stuck my pallet knife into the jar to discover that a thick layer of pitch-like paste was resting in the bottom of the jar. I kept trying to mix it up, and found that my IP pot was severely lacking in both medium and water. I do not know what medium to use (will acryllic medium work?) so I just added water. I had to add a significant amount, roughly 1.5mL.

Eventually the texture became more liquid like and yet thick, thick enough so that it did not drip from the lid much when opening a shaken bottle.

Here are my observations:
* The Imperial Primer separates severely, just as Thairne described, it will form a paste at the bottom of the pot. The pot itself may also be quite dehydrated, which actually happens quite a bit to paints and glues from Games Workshop bought here in the USA. I'm guessing things sit in warehouses quite a long time and GW bottles do not lock in moisture as well as they could.
* If the bottle is not mixed, even after shaking, the fluid will be very translucent, appearing like a wash or ink. It will flake and peal easily, it will pool in crevices, and the fluid will foam and bubble after shaking the pot. It will apply like acrylic paint (in terms of thickness), and it will rub right off or dissolve when painted upon. The finish will be glossy leaving the model with a wet look, even after drying.
* If the bottle is thoroughly mixed, the pigment content will be significantly higher, Imperial Primer is very very dark. It will brush on incredibly thinly, it will appear to look almost like a stain. It will not pool in crevices and it dries quite quickly with a matte finish. It will not rub off or flake, but it will scratch off, so treat it delicately until it has a paint layer above it.

I think this is one instance of a more general problem. GW bottles are often not air-tight and the product you get is often far from optimal consistency (e.g. GW's thick super glue that when bought is only at 1/4 volume and takes 2 days to descend to the applicator tip.) I suspect the problem is worse the further you get from the UK, and here in the US it seems pretty bad. GW does not provide more detailed information about their products so it is difficult to know what the product is SUPPOSED to look like (unless you know a more experienced hobbyist, an extremely rare thing especially in the US).

Off topic: What is the medium for Imperial Primer? Super Glue? Plastic Glue? Can they be made thinner again and restored to their intended condition?

Told ya
I found IP to be a good primer after you mix it with a cocktail stick. No chipping, good finish, good coverage. But it has a pretty dense consistensy and separates harshly as you just now noticed
I went from IP pot to Chaos Black over to Army Painter (which are impossible to strip...) to airbrushing (I hate rattle cans) Vallejo Primer, which i find to be way "chippier" than IP.

I'm not sure about the exact medium, but I'd wager it's the same as for other acrylics (Lahmian Medium?). One can "refresh" the paints, but I'd advice against doing it in the pot, but in batches on your pallett.
The consistency you describe however seems to be like IP usually is - pretty thick and, if separated, more like tar.

Mine is rubber crust, then black colored water.