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I am attending LVO and am grateful that the organizers are open-minded about modifying those parts of tournament 40K which were obviously not adequately thought out nor playtested. Invisibility was a mistake as written and is leveraged by players who don't really want to play an interactive wargame. It will be a better event if players who depend on such strategies either amend their lists to play in a more interactive style, or choose to attend other tourneys. I feel other items to address should be the application of Void Shield Generator protection to models outside of 12" and the extension of cover to models with just a toe in terrain. One would hope that GW would make fixes like this so that TOs wouldn't have to.
2¢

Coldsteel wrote:
Invisibility was a mistake as written and is leveraged by players who don't really want to play an interactive wargame. It will be a better event if players who depend on such strategies either amend their lists to play in a more interactive style, or choose to attend other tourneys.

Or someone wants to get to place a close combat army and the ridiculousness of the shooting armies out there means invisibility is one of the few ways to make it into assault?

That spoon big enough for you so that you can get all the lumps?

 Hulksmash wrote:

Coldsteel wrote:
Invisibility was a mistake as written and is leveraged by players who don't really want to play an interactive wargame. It will be a better event if players who depend on such strategies either amend their lists to play in a more interactive style, or choose to attend other tourneys.

Or someone wants to get to place a close combat army and the ridiculousness of the shooting armies out there means invisibility is one of the few ways to make it into assault?

That spoon big enough for you so that you can get all the lumps?

You can't get through to them all Hulk but I'd be damned before I said you weren't trying your hardest

Coldsteel wrote:
I am attending LVO and am grateful that the organizers are open-minded about modifying those parts of tournament 40K which were obviously not adequately thought out nor playtested. Invisibility was a mistake as written and is leveraged by players who don't really want to play an interactive wargame. It will be a better event if players who depend on such strategies either amend their lists to play in a more interactive style, or choose to attend other tourneys. I feel other items to address should be the application of Void Shield Generator protection to models outside of 12" and the extension of cover to models with just a toe in terrain. One would hope that GW would make fixes like this so that TOs wouldn't have to.
2¢

Says someone who likely plays an army that has the ability to shoot more than 1-2 weapons in a turn. Please, again, tell me how my themed Slaanesh daemon army is supposed play an interactive game when I can't make my opponent choose between dumping all their firepower into my invis unit, or utterly wiping out my entire army on turn 1, with my awesome 5++ T3 models?

Oh, you suggest I stop playing slaanesh and go back to summoning? Yes, this seems to be a common suggestion. Tell me how that makes for an interactive game?

lol

To the LVO TOs...

Thanks for giving my [TAU/ELDAR] army a leg up it didn't need versus the one good thing going for choppy armies - one less thing to worry about now.

Cheers,
Cheesy Shooty Player

Let's make our comments more constructive and helpful please folks.

Thank you.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
To the LVO TOs...

Thanks for giving my [TAU/ELDAR] army a leg up it didn't need versus the one good thing going for choppy armies - one less thing to worry about now.

Cheers,
Cheesy Shooty Player

Invisibility still forces them (Tau/Eldar) to hit on 6's, which makes it still good against those armies. I believe the example you want to use are Imperial Knights and Astra Militarum.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

Coldsteel wrote:
Invisibility was a mistake as written and is leveraged by players who don't really want to play an interactive wargame. It will be a better event if players who depend on such strategies either amend their lists to play in a more interactive style, or choose to attend other tourneys.

Or someone wants to get to place a close combat army and the ridiculousness of the shooting armies out there means invisibility is one of the few ways to make it into assault?

That spoon big enough for you so that you can get all the lumps?

You can't get through to them all Hulk but I'd be damned before I said you weren't trying your hardest

Up next, a 30ft windmill

@Whembly

We do have Highlander this year! It has good attendance too, we will report on how it goes. The main event though, is still the traditional championships.

@Hulk

For someone that isn't even coming to the event I think you have commented in this thread more than I have, lol.

Dead horses my man, dead horses. You better be there next year for all of the energy you are investing into this, haha.

@Coldsteel

Thanks! We look forward to having you!

@Punchdub

I am genuinely sorry to hear that you are going to be adversely impacted by this ruling. Your list sounds like the baby that got thrown out with the bathwater, unfortunately and for that, I honestly do feel for you.

Your style list is probably what GW intended the power to be used for. Unfortunately, what we get more commonly is invisible deathstars and lords of war which are the types of things that make people not want to come back to tournaments.

You still have over two months, perhaps use some alternate strategies if you think it will be that rough for you? Maybe change a unit out? I know it is easy to direct your frustration at the event or myself, personally (and justifiably so), but if GW had changed invis with an FAQ in December, you'd be in the same boat, you know? The difference here is that it is the community of gamers going to the event that wanted the change, and as such it feels differently.

But I do empathize with you, honestly. You were not the target of the change at all.

@Blackmoor

I understand your position dude, but you come across with such absurd arguments and that is a pet peeve of mine. You are my friend, I like having you at events, but sometimes you come across so incredibly negatively that it is hard not to construe as an attack.

And as for saying this poll was false, or what have you, take a gander at this. The first time we ran the poll on invis at the beginning of 7th, we got the following result.

Early 7th ed Poll to change Invis


The vote to change Invis lost narrowly, and so we didn't change it. We ran it again this go around and the results were different.

Current poll to change invis for LVO 2015


The vote was a huge swing the other direction. There is no difference is the way we gathered the data. This is a community vote of attendees. This time, the result was just different.

Now, could the timing have been better? Yeah, no doubt. I wish we would have done it earlier but we have been slammed with work. We've been saying we were going to get to this for weeks, but I kept procrastinating. I admit that was not done as well as it could have. And, I guess that only having one question threw people off, we normally have several. However, saying that the poll was false pretense or whatever is just funny. How do we know the result of something before it happens? We don't is of course, the obvious answer. I think it is hilarious that folks think we somehow knew what was going to happen before we got the results, haha, I WISH I had that ability! Unfortunately, the results were as much a mystery to me as to you all until the votes came in. Plenty of times I have wanted a result to come in that didn't. It's just the way the cookie crumbles. But attacking democracy or whatever is really just a silly counterargument.

So, think what you will of course, but the data reflects the wishes of those going to the event. If you are upset about it, I am sorry for that, but please don't cast stones at me as an individual questioning my integrity.

Lesson learned from this: if any proposed changes are to occur, do them earlier in the game.

At any rate, this is a done deal. We look forward to seeing everyone at the LVO, even you, Mr. Blackmoor.

 Reecius wrote:
take a gander at this. The first time we ran the poll on invis at the beginning of 7th, we got the following result.

Spoiler:

Early 7th ed Poll to change Invis


The vote to change Invis lost narrowly, and so we didn't change it. We ran it again this go around and the results were different.

Current poll to change invis for LVO 2015

The vote was a huge swing the other direction. There is no difference is the way we gathered the data. This is a community vote of attendees. This time, the result was just different.

Do you have theories as to why the vote was so much different this time? People hadn't had a chance to play against it yet at the time the first vote was taken?

Reecius was very vocal on the Internet with his campaign against Invisibility telling everyone how unfun it makes the game. Obviously he influenced some people.

@tag8833

The first poll was at the beginning of 7th when Invis was really new. The second poll is now. I would assume that after playing with and against the power people now feel they don't want it in their game.

But, if you ask Dozer, OBVIOUSLY I influenced every voter! Because, in addition to the powers of precognition I apparently also can control people thoughts and actions! Muahaha! Next step: WORLD DOMINATION!

 Reecius wrote:


I understand your position dude, but you come across with such absurd arguments and that is a pet peeve of mine. You are my friend, I like having you at events, but sometimes you come across so incredibly negatively that it is hard not to construe as an attack.

I am sorry if I am coming off that way. I know that I can word my statements a little better.

 Reecius wrote:

And as for saying this poll was false, or what have you, take a gander at this. The first time we ran the poll on invis at the beginning of 7th, we got the following result.

So, think what you will of course, but the data reflects the wishes of those going to the event. If you are upset about it, I am sorry for that, but please don't cast stones at me as an individual questioning my integrity.

I don't think that anyone here has questioned the accuracy of the poll, or questioned your integrity. People are just disappointed by the question and the results.

Some people wanted a poll, the attendees voted, and it is what it is.

At any rate, this is a done deal. We look forward to seeing everyone at the LVO, even you, Mr. Blackmoor.

See you there!

So what deathstars even exist now ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Reecius was very vocal on the Internet with his campaign against Invisibility telling everyone how unfun it makes the game. Obviously he influenced some people.

I have not really heard Reecius say too much about it other than a few comments on his podcast, and I doubt that it would influence many tournament goers.

I would attribute it to more to the fact that there is so much crap out there to worry about that one less thing (like invisibility) the better. So it was voted down by players who did not use it, or who are playing shooty armies.

Post removed by yakface:

No matter how much you disagree with someone's opinion, there isn't any reason to resort to insults.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Reecius was very vocal on the Internet with his campaign against Invisibility telling everyone how unfun it makes the game. Obviously he influenced some people.

You give Reece way too much credit for the amount of influence he has over a single community. While I can't attend the LVO this year I enjoy following this thread but you're just purposefully antagonizing people here.

I remember Reecius posting about it on the Internet and that's what I attribute it to. One units are going to steam roll through other armies with it? BeaStar and JSC are done. Except for Be'lakor I don't think you can reliably count on rolling it.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I remember Reecius posting about it on the Internet and that's what I attribute it to. One units are going to steam roll through other armies with it? BeaStar and JSC are done. Except for Be'lakor I don't think you can reliably count on rolling it.

Lots of people post about things on the internet. If Reece posts about his love of unicorns on the internet and then takes a poll of LVO attendees if they too love unicorns you think the poll results will be directly related to his post about unicorns?

I guess all people on the internet are the sheep to Reece's Squealer...

What do attribute the change in opinion to ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
What do attribute the change in opinion to ?

Going to go out on a limb here and propose three reasons:

They have played against it and it was unfun
They are afraid of the unknown, deathstars; i.e. kittens in ninja outfits with lightsabers
They opted to nerf armies other than their own

and a 4th option although this may be the true purpose: the unicorns Reecius loves so much are jealous about not getting their poll to confirm who else loves them, and secretly, in the shadows, and as an attempt to retaliate, have construed fallacious arguments in regards to invisibility and using mental powers we don't truly understand, have influenced the LVO attendees.

I think next year the icon for LVO should be an evil drunk, unicorn

See no one can give a solid example - unicorns and ninjas are stupid answers.

Going to go out on a limb here and propose three reasons:

They have played against it and it was unfun
They are afraid of the unknown, deathstars; i.e. kittens in ninja outfits with lightsabers
They opted to nerf armies other than their own

and a 4th option although this may be the true purpose: the unicorns Reecius loves so much are jealous about not getting their poll to confirm who else loves them, and secretly, in the shadows, and as an attempt to retaliate, have construed fallacious arguments in regards to invisibility and using mental powers we don't truly understand, have influenced the LVO attendees.

I think next year the icon for LVO should be an evil drunk, unicorn

That is some funny Sh** right there...and number 4 is actually true!!...even though I do not know why I think that....hmmmm...

remember everyone 40k is a game of toy soldiers and is meant to be fun...
One way or the other everyone should thank FLG for pouring countless hours of time into putting together an event for peeps to play in, they risk their business success on these events...not to mention its financial security...so I hope everyone travels safe and has a good time...I will be in attendance next year...work had me committed this year...

Cheers FLG and crew!!!!

Number 4 is true for sure - missed that one.

I think part of it is that the previous one didn't just go out to people attending. It went out to every person who had ever purchased from Frontline. I remember voting on that poll but people like me not attending this event this year didn't get to vote. Could account for a portion of it anyway.

@Reece

I don't think it's a dead horse when people incorrectly and repeatedly paint everyone who might use invis as some unfun mean man who murders kittens Plus most of my "energy" was when I was bored at work. Like I said earlier, 50% bored at work and 50% cares

 Dozer Blades wrote:
What do attribute the change in opinion to ?

To the fact that people's opinions change over time based on a variety of reasons, including game experience, input from their friends and yes, online sources such as forums, podcasts, etc.

But frankly the 'why' is largely irrelevant. The fact is that the vast majority of attendees do support the change and therefore it is stupid not to make the change if doing so will please the vast majority of the people attending.

If Reece has some sort of magical sway over peoples' minds that you believe that he does, then so be it. If that's the case, then the people attending have drunken his Kool-aid and will be much more happy with that change being made at this event than leaving it stand.

And note that I do not actually believe that Reece (or anyone) has the ability to magically sway peoples' opinions. He can say what he thinks and those who respect him will consider what he is saying, but ultimately everybody makes up their own minds about what they believe.

 Reecius wrote:

@Punchdub

I am genuinely sorry to hear that you are going to be adversely impacted by this ruling. Your list sounds like the baby that got thrown out with the bathwater, unfortunately and for that, I honestly do feel for you.

Your style list is probably what GW intended the power to be used for. Unfortunately, what we get more commonly is invisible deathstars and lords of war which are the types of things that make people not want to come back to tournaments.

You still have over two months, perhaps use some alternate strategies if you think it will be that rough for you? Maybe change a unit out? I know it is easy to direct your frustration at the event or myself, personally (and justifiably so), but if GW had changed invis with an FAQ in December, you'd be in the same boat, you know? The difference here is that it is the community of gamers going to the event that wanted the change, and as such it feels differently.

But I do empathize with you, honestly. You were not the target of the change at all.

Reece, thanks for the condolences and empathy. Perhaps, in the future, you'll consider that you have the power to alienate players by your actions. I think we'd be hard pressed to find someone who had already purchased a ticket that expected Invisibility to have been changed, hoped perhaps, but no expectations. So, had you not made any changes, no one would have had expectations to the contrary and any complaining that took place would have been in the appropriate context of "this game is whack, thanks GW!"

However, by changing the rules (even by vote) you've now upset a number of people who rightfully had expectations about how the game was going to be played. People who are in for hundreds or thousands of dollars to attend your event. People who have built and painted armies, some just for this event. All of this angst and frustration was completely avoidable.

Your argument that GW could have made such a change and we would all have had to live with it is a red herring designed to distract from your conscious action. Yes, GW, can and often does make poor decisions. They have tacitly acknowledged that they don't care to support the competitive gaming scene. There is a difference. One was controllable by the event organizer, and as such you own the impact of the decision, and its timing. You would have been able to wash your hands of the GW FAQ.

I get that majority rules in this case. Again, I say, your handling and timing of the matter was poor, at best. To your comment that I was not the target, I call BS. I do so noting that I know I personally was not the target, but lets be honest -- players that use Invisibility were the target. Maybe I'm not the meanest list around, but I was the target. This was a targeted action by the masses aimed at a select group of players.

I'm moving on. I have started building a new army. We'll see how far I get between now and Vegas. If you see a guy with a half built and painted army, that might be me. If your goal was to sell your painting service, to that I say "touche, good sir!" But I'm not biting, I'm too proud to farm out my painting.

While I continue to have the utmost respect for the effort and investment you put into making these events happen, I really wish I could kick you right now. It wouldn't change anything, but it might distribute some of the anxiety I'm now facing as I try to build and paint 1850 points of another army in 2 months. BTW, something that normally takes my 6-12 months.

I feel your pain punchdub. I am doing a little scrambling myself atm. However as I am already heavily invested in going I will just try to make the best of it. I just wish you had decided this a little earlier Reece. I often have to plan my purchases months in advance plus any kind of painting and/or play testing.

I don't know if it has been mentioned, but why can't a compromise be Invis stays the way it is and changes for next year? The biggest complaint seems to be the timing of the poll more than anything.

(nicely, and serisouly)
C'mon, punchdub, this is entirely too much butt hurt being expressed over a game of Space Barbies.

And it's not about money or time either. As pointed out earlier, you can easily cancel and get your money back, from LVO, the hotels and ... I'm guessing most of your plane ticket. And you can play your Belakor army pretty much anywhere else, with unneutered Invisibility.

I know you already said that you're still gonna come, but once you played the martyr card (with your limited paint time to paint, 6 months crammed into 2, another army, mentioning anxiety, etc.), I think you lost credibility on the matter.

I know contentious topics fuel threads into having a lot of readership, and it's been said that negative press is good press, but your (I'm looking for not too negative word) ... complaint (?) and posts are quintessential
"the edition change / the FAQ / new codex == Damn you GW / FAQ / T.O. douche! You have nerfed my army! Rage !!! "

internet folderol.

We've been reading (and posting) in these threads since GW had its own boards. It's time these petulant "My army rule got changed Argh!" post runs ended.

Your last post (as I started this) said you're moving on. Great.

I will buy you a beer. I'm short and runty. Skinny. I will likely have purple 4 Serpent Spam with a great looking WraithKnight. Not too hard to find. My name is Casey. I give you green light to vent over some suds. ... And I'll tell you things that I respectfully won't say on yakface's site. Yes, it will be a friendly conversation.

-Cheers