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 Sigvatr wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Do note that study also includes Tablet/Phone gamers, which is an entirely different kind of gamer demographic.

/e: CURSE YOUR EDIIIIIT!

..What'd I miss?

They don't consider themselves to be gamers, but...
They do spend just as many hours as a 'gamer'

They don't like to consider themselves one becauses it was a bad thing to be called a gamer for a very long time, And that stigma still exists.

The market currently shows that the average gamer or casual gamers as they are called, make up the majority of the gaming market. I.E Farmville, Ipad and Iphone games.

You can't really disclude them from the discussion. Its like not including point and click games because they don't fit your definition of a game.

Thus why rather then not calling them gamers, I consider them another Gaming Demographic.. One that I dislike because it emphasizes painful and excessive monetization schemes to drain your wallet with 'timer based gameplay" The worst sins of gaming and as a result they feel freer to gouge out wallets with their horrific practices.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Anita is not just some random obscure figure on the internet.

She is, really. She became more well-known after receiving a lot of abuse, but still.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
to the point that major mainstream media and "news" organisations are inviting her onto tv to rant about how the entire video game industry is riddled with misogyny.

Uh? Which one? Honestly never heard about that.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
To the ignorant mainstream media and wider public, her narrative and views shape their perception of video games.

I would bet 99% of the people that watched her videos did so because they are already interested in video games, and play them.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Combine her influence with that of other anti video game figures like Jack Thompson and Keith Vaz (British mp). You have a distinct external threat to the industry.

Except Anita is not anti-video game. She wants to change how female characters are portrayed in them, not remove them. Also, I never heard of those other two guys.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
To expand on your analogy...you say you wouldn't care if an obscure person on the internet made a kickstarter for a series of videos about his views and desire for relaxed gun control...but what if that guy began to become influential?

Then I would try to provide counter argument, rather than ad hominem and worrying about how he or she spends the money given to him voluntarily by his support even after the original goal was reached. Because those arguments and counterarguments are what matters to decide whether or not we should have more relaxed gun laws or not.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
For once, that's something on which I actually agree with you.

But is that not what Anita is trying to achieve?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Point and click adventure games are exclusively female protagonists.

Except for the Monkey Island series, the Sam and Max series, Day of the Tentacle, Beneath a Steel Sky, Flight of the Amazon Queen, and… well, I guess I do not know any point and click game with only female protagonists. Broken Age has one female protagonist and one male protagonist, that is as close as it gets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
There's a reason for it. First of all, most gamers are male by a large margin.

So, it is not about making the character empowered, but about pandering to the male audience sexual interests. Right? Because that was my point.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Secondly, that might surprise you, sexuality works different among men and women. Roughly broken down: men are immediately drawn by sexual representations of the opposite gender. Women simply don't work that way or, rather, to a much lesser extent.

I would not be so sure if I look at movies that are really popular among female teenagers :

Jack Thompson was the long time anti-video game lawyer that believed and fought for the idea that video games like Grand Theft Auto were murder simulators. He's fallen out of light after his "modest proposal" where he challenged the video game community to build him a game where a distraught parent went on a rampage killing people involved in the death of his son, up to and including a woman that ran a video game company whose name was eerily similar to the CEO of Take Two Interactive. If they did that, he'd donate something like 10 grand to a charity of the creator's choice.

Someone called him on his gak, made the game, and he then said he wouldn't pay because his proposal was sarcasm. So the guys at Penny Arcade donated 10k to a charity (possibly their own?) in honor of Jack Thompson.

Except for the Monkey Island series, the Sam and Max series, Day of the Tentacle, Beneath a Steel Sky, Flight of the Amazon Queen, and… well, I guess I do not know any point and click game with only female protagonists. Broken Age has one female protagonist and one male protagonist, that is as close as it gets.

I am looking specifically at games right now.

They are usually female driven.

But Point and click games are off the beaten path usually, and very few triple a games are point and click.

Jack Thompson was the long time anti-video game lawyer that believed and fought for the idea that video games like Grand Theft Auto were murder simulators. He's fallen out of light after his "modest proposal" where he challenged the video game community to build him a game where a distraught parent went on a rampage killing people involved in the death of his son, up to and including a woman that ran a video game company whose name was eerily similar to the CEO of Take Two Interactive. If they did that, he'd donate something like 10 grand to a charity of the creator's choice.

Someone called him on his gak, made the game, and he then said he wouldn't pay because his proposal was sarcasm. So the guys at Penny Arcade donated 10k to a charity (possibly their own?) in honor of Jack Thompson.

JAck Thompson is a piece of work especially his buddy.




Just listen


But yeah Jack Thompson is a moron hahaha.

I guess I am confused. What is wrong with Feminist Frequency? Why is there so much anger against her?

I don't understand why more people are not outraged that she is getting death and rape threats for talking about video games. Her videos seem pretty benign and show some of the issues the video game industry has with women.

Correct me if I am wrong, but can we agree that video game industry could stand to be more inclusive?

 Alfndrate wrote:
Jack Thompson was the long time anti-video game lawyer that believed and fought for the idea that video games like Grand Theft Auto were murder simulators. He's fallen out of light after his "modest proposal" where he challenged the video game community to build him a game where a distraught parent went on a rampage killing people involved in the death of his son, up to and including a woman that ran a video game company whose name was eerily similar to the CEO of Take Two Interactive. If they did that, he'd donate something like 10 grand to a charity of the creator's choice.

Someone called him on his gak, made the game, and he then said he wouldn't pay because his proposal was sarcasm. So the guys at Penny Arcade donated 10k to a charity (possibly their own?) in honor of Jack Thompson.

Oh God I remember this! Thank you for reminding me

 AdeptSister wrote:
I guess I am confused. What is wrong with Feminist Frequency? Why is there so much anger against her?

I don't understand why more people are not outraged that she is getting death and rape threats for talking about video games. Her videos seem pretty benign and show some of the issues the video game industry has with women.

Correct me if I am wrong, but can we agree that video game industry could stand to be more inclusive?

The problem is she barely talks about what's actually wrong, and instead just kind of Goldfishes;

Problems with females in the Industry:

- Developers have to fight tooth and nail to be able to make a female lead.
- Female Leads often have to be left off the front of box art.
- It is considered creepy/unnerving for female leads to have love interests "For male gamers".

Not problems with females in industry:

-"Damsel in distress"
-Peach being Kidnapped.
- "Women being seen as property of men", because "A woman as an object gets taken from the protagonist, and he rages against those who took her from him" (Pretty sure it's a legit reaction to seek revenge on thsoe who cold bloodedly kill people you don't hate. Not a good reaction, but an understandable one).

Her logic is very out there as well; she can claim that Princess Zelda is helpless and can't do anything, but I could complain that, using the same examples, it makes Link out to be a total dunce who needs to be told what to do every five seconds.

She spends 20+ Minutes on Princess Peach, but barely talks about Samus Aran or Lara Croft, two Iconic leading ladies whom are known to wreck people's poop daily.

A bit of it is just the Internet Hate Machine, though.

 Slarg232 wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
I guess I am confused. What is wrong with Feminist Frequency? Why is there so much anger against her?

I don't understand why more people are not outraged that she is getting death and rape threats for talking about video games. Her videos seem pretty benign and show some of the issues the video game industry has with women.

Correct me if I am wrong, but can we agree that video game industry could stand to be more inclusive?

The problem is she barely talks about what's actually wrong, and instead just kind of Goldfishes;

Problems with females in the Industry:

- Developers have to fight tooth and nail to be able to make a female lead.
- Female Leads often have to be left off the front of box art.
- It is considered creepy/unnerving for female leads to have love interests "For male gamers".

Not problems with females in industry:

-"Damsel in distress"
-Peach being Kidnapped.
- "Women being seen as property of men", because "A woman as an object gets taken from the protagonist, and he rages against those who took her from him" (Pretty sure it's a legit reaction to seek revenge on thsoe who cold bloodedly kill people you don't hate. Not a good reaction, but an understandable one).

Her logic is very out there as well; she can claim that Princess Zelda is helpless and can't do anything, but I could complain that, using the same examples, it makes Link out to be a total dunce who needs to be told what to do every five seconds.

She spends 20+ Minutes on Princess Peach, but barely talks about Samus Aran or Lara Croft, two Iconic leading ladies whom are known to wreck people's poop daily.

A bit of it is just the Internet Hate Machine, though.

I think who ever said it unnerves males to see a woman have love interests other than what the gamers find attractive is kind of stupid.

I mean I would fascinated if there was a game about a woman and her children. And I would think it would be the best game of all time.

I don't remember who said that, but I do know it was Remember Me's developers complaining about it; Nilin (Main Character) was supposed to have a love interest, but that was scrapped in order to convince them to allow Nilin to still exist.

The only think I've learned from this thread is that Anita Sarkeesian remains gaming's Benghazi.

 Ouze wrote:
The only think I've learned from this thread is that Anita Sarkeesian remains gaming's Benghazi.

Agreed.

 AdeptSister wrote:
I guess I am confused. What is wrong with Feminist Frequency? Why is there so much anger against her?

I don't understand why more people are not outraged that she is getting death and rape threats for talking about video games. Her videos seem pretty benign and show some of the issues the video game industry has with women.

Correct me if I am wrong, but can we agree that video game industry could stand to be more inclusive?

The primary issues are accusations of e-begging, she received $160,000 to produce a video series and so far she's produced 2 videos. It's not the she doesn't have a talent for observation, it's the conclusions she draws which are insane. Look no further than her "analysis" of hitman, where presumably she decided to murder strippers and flop them around a room and present that somehow as the object of the game when in reality the incentive for the player is to sneak past them. If you have to skew this stuff to make your point it starts to eat away at any credibility you may have. You could make a series deconstructing trite horsecrap in any form of media or entertainment, the problem, for a lot of us, is when you then try and make some specious connection between individuals real world actions and those they partake in while playing a video game. To anita, it's not a problem we're playing murder simulators, oh no, they just need not ever take place in a strip club or in the wild west or really anywhere because wherever or whenever you set a game, there might be hookers or strippers. Almost like those things existed before video games.

I'm reminded of the simpsons episode Itchy & Scratchy & Marge http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Itchy_%26_Scratchy_%26_Marge. In it marge simpson spearheads a campaign against itchy & scratchy because she believe it causes children to become violent because it depicts violence. There's a scene in which she's debating the owner of itchy & scratchy and he says something pretty worthwhile:

“In preparing for this debate I did a little research, and I discovered a startling thing. There was violence in the past, long before cartoons were invented.” – Roger Meyers Jr.
“I see, fascinating.” – Kent Brockman
“And there was something called The Crusades, for instance, tremendous violence, many people killed, the darn thing went on for thirty years!” – Roger Meyers Jr.
“And this was before cartoons were invented?” – Kent Brockman

The episode is incredibly relevant which is amazing seeing as it's almost a quarter century old. The best part really is when the creative team turn to marge simpson and a show which is basically entirely about violence becomes a show about loving and caring. Bart thinks it sucks and even lisa must contend that the show has lost its edge. Anita's "consulting" might result in good things, it may also backfire if the game becomes more about indoctrination over entertainment.


It's a bit like bill O'Reilly indicting all rap music because a primary subject matter is crime. As if the people making the music didn't grow up surrounded by it. Pretending the symptom is the cause. Sex and violence sell, they're not always needed, sometimes they feel overused or forced. There are plenty of valid criticisms there to be made but it;s the heavy handed ideological slant that's pissing people off. Does she deserve the amount of hatred she received? Probably not, but in the end she has the last laugh, it has benefited her finances and career. I understand people's frustrations with the blurred editorial lines when it comes to certain gaming news/blog sites. Someone made the point that if you're reading a review of the new iphone, you generally want to learn about the features of the phone, not be demonized for wanting one and told at length of the horrible working conditions at foxconn.

Simpson's quote is gold!

I'd imagine that she should really be focusing on all media in general.

I think she doesn't have the weight/credibility to do so and is therefore targeting the gaming sphere because she can generate a lot of reaction because nobody else is doing it.

People overreacting to her is when you start proving her point for her and making her look credible by way of moronic opposition.

The title of this article made me laugh.

Trolls drive Anita Sarkeesian out of her house to prove misogyny doesn't exist

Just one quick food for thought: a lot of people, even on Dakka, jump to her side mainly because...she's a woman. Ignoring arguments or anything that might dim the shining light of righteousness that surrounds her because...she's a woman.

Positive sexism much.

Comparing Zoe Quinn and Anita, however, isn't fully fair as both are slightly different.

Anita purposefully stirred up hatred and presented false facts / strawmen / etc. in order to gather followers and, basically, attention.

Zoe Quinn made up a raid and proved being a terrible, unempathic person in order to get attention.

I'd say the latter is worse, as the entire thing is based on a pretty bland lie and tons of positive sexism by Zoe Quinn herself, but judgement is up to yourself.

As a very rough rule of thumb: never trust anyone claiming to speak for any big public motion who also is big in media; this goes for racism, sexism and...most -isms. People who actually do something for any given movement usually go under the radar. They let their actions speak for themselves. Slacktivism is a terrible thing we have nowadays, but what is more interesting? A long, drawn-out and boring lawsuit going on for months or even YEARS? Or a bunch of clueless college students showing their boobies in public?

Anita without the blacklash would have been teaching sensitivity training workshops.

Oh look more from polygon http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/28/6078517/stop-ruining-my-escapist-fantasies-sarkeesian-haters

"A reasonable human can disagree with Anita Sarkeesian’s arguments or not find her videos compelling. But the people feverishly looking for evidence that she’s some kind of fifth columnist sent to destroy video games are doing more damage to my favorite genres than she ever will. If you want nuanced, serious, realistic games, you should want to get rid of lazy, misogynist stereotypes. If you want games to be pulpy escapes from reality, you should want to get rid of lazy, misogynist stereotypes even more."

You know, as has often been pointed out, mysogyny is fear or hatred of women. If that word wasn't there I could essentially agree with the sentiment, there are plenty of lazy stereotypes on display. But the accusation of misogyny speaks to some ideological slant, like any game dev or movie director who has ever made a movie/game about crime that somehow involved hookers or strippers is anti-women or something, yes sometimes the depiction is lazy, yes sometimes it doesn't seem necessary to the plot at all, but there are other explanations, lack of talent or fear of breaking the mold seem like perfectly good estimations or criticisms. I can remember a good deal of the sopranos took place in a strip club, I didn't realize the creator of the sopranos was such a misogynist....

 Crablezworth wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:
I guess I am confused. What is wrong with Feminist Frequency? Why is there so much anger against her?

I don't understand why more people are not outraged that she is getting death and rape threats for talking about video games. Her videos seem pretty benign and show some of the issues the video game industry has with women.

Correct me if I am wrong, but can we agree that video game industry could stand to be more inclusive?

The primary issues are accusations of e-begging, she received $160,000 to produce a video series and so far she's produced 2 videos. It's not the she doesn't have a talent for observation, it;s the conclusions she draws which are insane. Look no further than her "analysis" of hitman, where presumably she decided to murder strippers and flop them around a room and present that somehow as the object of the game when in reality the game incentives the player to sneak past them. If you have to skew this stuff to make your point it starts to eat away at any credibility you may have. You could make a series deconstructing trite horsecrap in any form of media or entertainment, the problem, for a lot of us, is when you then try and make some specious connection between individuals real world actions and those they partake in while playing a video game. To anita, it's not a problem we're playing murder simulators, oh no, they just need not ever take place in a strip club or in the wild west or really anywhere because wherever or whenever you set a game, there might be hookers or strippers.

I'm reminded of the simpsons episode Itchy & Scratchy & Marge http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/Itchy_%26_Scratchy_%26_Marge. In it marge simpson spearheads a campaign against itchy & scratchy because she believe it causes children to become violent because it depicts violence. There's a scene in which she's debating the owner of itchy & scratchy and he says something pretty worthwhile:

“In preparing for this debate I did a little research, and I discovered a startling thing. There was violence in the past, long before cartoons were invented.” – Roger Meyers Jr.
“I see, fascinating.” – Kent Brockman
“And there was something called The Crusades, for instance, tremendous violence, many people killed, the darn thing went on for thirty years!” – Roger Meyers Jr.
“And this was before cartoons were invented?” – Kent Brockman

It's a bit like bill O'Reilly indicting all rap music because a primary subject matter is crime. As if the people making the music didn't grow up surrounded by it. Pretending the symptom is the cause. Sex and violence sell, they're not always needed, sometimes they feel overused or forced. There are plenty of valid criticisms there to be made but it;s the heavy handed ideological slant that's pissing people off. Does she deserve the amount of hatred she received? Probably not, but in the end she has the last laugh, it has benefited her finances and career. I understand people's frustrations with the blurred editorial lines when it comes to certain gaming news/blog sites. Someone made the point that if you're reading a review of the new iphone, you generally want to learn about the features of the phone, not be demonized for wanting one and told at length of the horrible working conditions at foxconn.

Is this too long to have as a signature?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just one quick food for thought: a lot of people, even on Dakka, jump to her side mainly because...she's a woman. Ignoring arguments or anything that might dim the shining light of righteousness that surrounds her because...she's a woman.

Positive sexism much.

Comparing Zoe Quinn and Anita, however, isn't fully fair as both are slightly different.

Anita purposefully stirred up hatred and presented false facts / strawmen / etc. in order to gather followers and, basically, attention.

Zoe Quinn made up a raid and proved being a terrible, unempathic person in order to get attention.

I'd say the latter is worse, as the entire thing is based on a pretty bland lie and tons of positive sexism by Zoe Quinn herself, but judgement is up to yourself.

As a very rough rule of thumb: never trust anyone claiming to speak for any big public motion who also is big in media; this goes for racism, sexism and...most -isms. People who actually do something for any given movement usually go under the radar. They let their actions speak for themselves. Slacktivism is a terrible thing we have nowadays, but what is more interesting? A long, drawn-out and boring lawsuit going on for months or even YEARS? Or a bunch of clueless college students showing their boobies in public?

BOOBIES!! But guys too, so it's not mysogynistic

Like I said in the other thread;

Zoe can't really be blamed, even if all of the accusations are true; she's using (What very few) assets she has to climb ranks, even if people find it reprehensible. She has a game on Steam, many other developers do not. Is it getting panned? Yes, and rightfully so, I feel. But it's there, so she succeeded on that front.


The fact that a journalist was in bed with whom he was reporting on is much, much worse in my eyes. The fact that he refuses to put any bad things about his "mattress" "in print" as it were is much worse.

IMHO.

Zoe Quinn made a game about depression yet she fakes an internet "raid" of a forum that mostly consists of people very likely to suffer from or being prone depression or at least social anxiet, showing a severe lack of empathy and making her a terrible person on all possible levels.

She can be blamed. And she should be blamed.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Zoe Quinn made a game about depression yet she fakes an internet "raid" of a forum that mostly consists of people very likely to suffer from or being prone depression or at least social anxiet, showing a severe lack of empathy and making her a terrible person on all possible levels.

She can be blamed. And she should be blamed.

For that, yes.

For sleeping her way to the top (As the video in the OP made it sound like the issue was), not at all.

She NEVER did that. She w***** around. Yes. But she NEVER slept with anyone for good reviews.

 Sigvatr wrote:
She NEVER did that. She w***** around. Yes. But she NEVER slept with anyone for good reviews.

Intentional or not, if it's true, she is or was sleeping with someone who writes about her product and either recommends or trashes it.

That means even if her intentions are of the purest regards, HE is biased. And that is where the blame lies.




I apologize if it sounded like I was implying she was one, but I was merely trying to say what the video was saying.

Gotcha

I do subscribe to the idea that it was in the back of her mind, though.

Maybe not the entire reason (Especially if she's hitting on people at weddings the way the video described, she could just be VERY active), but you can't tell me it didn't pop up at least once.

I still think its not as bad as IGN.

I hate IGN so much for so many reasons.

1. For overhyping.
2. For terrible articles.
3. For giving COD perfect scores every single time.
4. For giving Extremely good games that take chances poor scores because they lack multiplayer or something stupid like that.
5. For their fakeness
6. For having a scale for a rating system. Seriously. Just say, I recommend this game. Games are meant to be entertaining you, if they don't entertain us, be frank about it and say. I do not recommend this game because it did not entertain me.
7. A rating system for graphics. Okay, in this day and age, a game can be made on any engine, if you judge or rate a game on its graphics engine, then get your head out of your ass. As long as the graphics do not interfere with the gameplay or hamper gameplay in anyway.
8. If you like one part of the game, captalize on it, but then go onto the details that it works here, but not here.
9. Not being cynical enough.
10. Fanboying instead of criticizing, your a major publisher for reviews, if there is something wrong with the game talk about it, captalize on it. The game industry will listen to you.
11. Be willing to listen to the critics of other websites. Currently Ign does not hold a very good standing with the rest of the reviewers of video games. From Yahtzee, To Extra Credits, to kotaku, to Rooster teeth for crying out loud. They need to reimagine themselves.
12. Not editing their work before they post.

IGN has been bought out by Activision/EA/Publishers.

Even if it's not true/no proof, I'm standing by that statement because no one can prove it otherwise.

 Slarg232 wrote:
IGN has been bought out by Activision/EA/Publishers.

Even if it's not true/no proof, I'm standing by that statement because no one can prove it otherwise.

I don't care who they come from, they are just poorly written articles, and the most well known reviewing website in gaming, and they are the one that sadly game designers listen to. And their main thing about all games is to be like COD

I personally wish all "Graphics" scales would be changed to Aesthetics, but I fear we are going off topic here.

 Slarg232 wrote:
I personally wish all "Graphics" scales would be changed to Aesthetics, but I fear we are going off topic here.

We are talking about Video Game reviewers. I mean most are quite terrible.

Extra Credits actually talked about it. (And if you are interested in gaming news listen to them, they are in the industry and now whats up, so do I incidently as I am currently a student in it.)

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just one quick food for thought: a lot of people, even on Dakka, jump to her side mainly because...she's a woman. Ignoring arguments or anything that might dim the shining light of righteousness that surrounds her because...she's a woman.
...
...

Don't you think that is a bit sexist?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Anita without the blacklash would have been teaching sensitivity training workshops.
...

Then the backlashers are fething stupid as well as vile misogynist bigoted criminals. But we knew that already.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just one quick food for thought: a lot of people, even on Dakka, jump to her side mainly because...she's a woman. Ignoring arguments or anything that might dim the shining light of righteousness that surrounds her because...she's a woman.
...
...

Don't you think that is a bit sexist?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crablezworth wrote:
Anita without the blacklash would have been teaching sensitivity training workshops.
...

Then the backlashers are fething* stupid as well as vile misogynist bigoted criminals. But we knew that already.

Hahaha. Sorry. I completely agree with you on that.