Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2014/09/04 21:24:43
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Simply stated, the integrity of "Gaming Journalism" is being questioned and said journalists are nerd-raging across all cultural/political spectrum to deflect said criticisms?
Right?
Sounds like a normal lineup on MSNBC.
Gaming Journalism is dead.
Come on, say it with me.
Gaming Journalism is dead.
Gaming Journalism is dead.
Gaming Journalism is...
Simply stated, the integrity of "Gaming Journalism" is being questioned and said journalists are nerd-raging across all cultural/political spectrum to deflect said criticisms?
Right?
Sounds like a normal lineup on MSNBC.
Except the difference is that they are all sleeping together and are actively involved.
Simply stated, the integrity of "Gaming Journalism" is being questioned and said journalists are nerd-raging across all cultural/political spectrum to deflect said criticisms?
Right?
Sounds like a normal lineup on MSNBC.
Gaming Journalism is dead.
Come on, say it with me.
Gaming Journalism is dead.
Gaming Journalism is dead.
Gaming Journalism is...
Simply stated, the integrity of "Gaming Journalism" is being questioned and said journalists are nerd-raging across all cultural/political spectrum to deflect said criticisms?
Right?
Sounds like a normal lineup on MSNBC.
Except the difference is that they are all sleeping together and are actively involved.
"We want to talk about improving games journalism."
Ok sure - well what specifically do you think is the problem?
"Too much corruption, not enough transparency, media keep trying to silence our complaints."
Oof, that’s a tricky one. I mean you’re sort of suggesting a number of things there, first of all that corruption has been proven to be a major problem - which is difficult, because it hasn’t. So I mean really you’re asking me to offer up a tangible solution to a widespread problem that - as far as I’m aware - doesn’t actually exist. As you can imagine, that’s a bit of a tough one.
I mean obviously the past few weeks have highlighted certain situations in which corruption potentially could have happened, but jumping to that conclusion without explicit evidence is like suggesting that anyone who’s ever worked a cash register is a thief.
"Well you need to be more transparent, then."
I mean, do we? This comes down to two factors: How many people are actually interested in this stuff, and at what point does the line get drawn? Do I need to start keeping a little black book about everyone I’ve ever had a brief chat with? In an industry this tiny you end up bumping into everyone - and yes, that means having a drink with that developer you quite like, but it also means having to politely shake hands with a snooty exec that genuinely still wants you eviscerated for the time you gave his game a 6/10.
Watching people whip up spider diagrams that prove most people in games know each other was a genuinely insane waste of time - you could have just asked any of us whether or not that was true, and any one of us would have happily told you. Frankly I’ve been a bit unimpressed at how much detail these diagrams lack - everybody knows everybody. To suggest that means cronyism is very naive, mind - not everyone in the industry likes each other, they just hide that relatively well out of a sense of professionalism. It’s not something I’m personally very good at, because I’m a feisty prick who should really know better.
But the core of this call for transparency comes back to an absolute lack of trust. Yes, we all know each other. Yes, most of us have shared a drink with countless developers over the years. If you don’t trust us not to let that influence our work, then no form of transparency is going to change that - we’d simply be providing you with citations to help prove this invented corruption. If you don’t trust a writer or a publication, don’t waste your time reading their stuff.
All sorts of hard work goes on behind the scenes to ensure stuff remains above-board and ethical. I mean, look on Twitter or poke your head into a pub and ethics is practically the only thing that games journalists ever seem to bloody talk about, to the point where it’s almost downright tedious.
Perhaps constantly broadcasting this group-think neurosis has been partly to blame for the current belief that ethical problem musts exist. If that’s the case it’s brutally ironic - this desire to champion squeaky-clean practices only exists because most games media desperately want to rekindle the trust that was unfairly snatched away wholesale because of the actions of an unscrupulous few. If you think you’re still furious about the Gamespot Kane and Lynch stuff, you’ve no idea how professionals feel. To see your entire profession tarred so absolutely with the same brush as a bunch of exec pricks you’ll never even meet is properly heart-rending.
"Well if all that’s true then why are the media trying to silence our complaints?"
It’s difficult to answer this question without tweaking it a little bit, as it sort of comes packaged with the inherent suggestion that the games media is some sort of Borg-like entity that’s secretly in cahoots.
"I do think that’s true though."
Well there’s definitely a tendency for people to react in the same way when put under the same pressures, and sure - you will get a visible sense of unity when a group of people are being attacked in ways that don’t seem entirely fair. So I can see that sometimes it might appear like there’s some form of formal collaboration going on behind the scenes - with different sites from around the world working towards the same planned agendas - but obviously it’s more likely to suggest that any appearances of direct collaboration are more the result of like-minded people reacting to the same stimulus in very similar ways.
"No I do believe that the games media are working together to silence us."
Oh, right. Well that’s tricky. You’re sort of working from a frame of reference that’s so vastly different to the reality that I know exists that I’m not really sure how we can go about having a meaningful conversation. It’s like we’re trying to work together on a map of the earth, but one of us believes the world is flat and the other one believes the world is a triangle, you know?
The only way I could talk about how to improve games journalism with you would be to force my brain to entirely reject things I know to be true in favour of things you believe to be true. And I can’t prove that what you believe isn’t true, because it’s impossible to provide evidence that disproves evidence that as far as I can tell doesn’t actually exist.
Gosh, sorry- this has become awfully complicated. I guess the short version is that there’s no point in us having this conversation - I’m unable to integrate your perspective into the version of reality I know to be true, and you seem unwilling to consider the proposition that the conspiracies you believe in might not be real. So yeah, I’m off to do something else. Sorry.
"Typical! Completely unwilling to talk to us about fixing our legitimate complaints…"
(Hopefully this serves both as a FAQ for people genuinely asking me these questions, and also as a partial explanation - although not a justification - as to why many media have reacted to these criticisms with derision. It’s tough to remain rational when surrounded with madness.)
Edit: I understand that people remain very angry at what they see as journalists lashing out at the community in general, and whilst I won’t try and justify that (or even entirely accept that this isn’t even true) I’d like to ask you to consider this: When the community you’ve worked so hard to serve choose to stand beside a group of manipulative misogynists rather than entertain the idea that you might not actually be corrupt, how do you think this makes people feel?
So much of this argument boils down to a misunderstanding - the games media aren’t calling you misogynists. They don’t think you hate women. But you’ve decided that your distrust of the media is so strong that you’d rather side with dangerous bigots than believe that the media might not be corrupt, that’s a hell of a statement to be making.
There’s a lot of talk about gamers being disrespected right now, but honestly - take a step back and think about how that might actually feel. Here’s a clue: it feels fething awful. I’m doing my best to continue to talk about this stuff without getting too emotional and angry, but trust me - it remains a constant struggle.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/04 22:30:05
"With pop hits provin' unlikely, Captain Beefheart retreated to a cabin to shout at his band for months on end. The result was Trout Mask Replica."
2014/09/04 22:32:25
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Slate readers are over, declining—a dead demographic.
Why on Earth would I start a column with this thesis? There is no faster way to alienate my audience—that is, the people who pay my bills. And yet, this is exactly what writers at not one but half a dozen online gaming publications did to their audiences last week, and it points to a significant shift in the business of gaming. Gamers are not over, but gaming journalism is.
I'm more than a little biased, but....
Seriously, how can Game Journalists NOT see this?
Edit: ^ Sorry, I could have seen that as all the different sites lashing out at gamers, but when ALL of them are going on about Misogyny and "the Death of the Gamer", I have to call bs. I know for a fact (Well, 95% certain) that there are journalists just trying to do their jobs and report on things, but when the sites all churn out the same exact story within a week, I find this incredibly hard to believe.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/04 22:41:08
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2014/09/04 22:38:14
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
"We want to talk about improving games journalism."
Ok sure - well what specifically do you think is the problem?
"Too much corruption, not enough transparency, media keep trying to silence our complaints."
Oof, that’s a tricky one. I mean you’re sort of suggesting a number of things there, first of all that corruption has been proven to be a major problem - which is difficult, because it hasn’t. So I mean really you’re asking me to offer up a tangible solution to a widespread problem that - as far as I’m aware - doesn’t actually exist. As you can imagine, that’s a bit of a tough one.
I mean obviously the past few weeks have highlighted certain situations in which corruption potentially could have happened, but jumping to that conclusion without explicit evidence is like suggesting that anyone who’s ever worked a cash register is a thief.
"Well you need to be more transparent, then."
I mean, do we? This comes down to two factors: How many people are actually interested in this stuff, and at what point does the line get drawn? Do I need to start keeping a little black book about everyone I’ve ever had a brief chat with? In an industry this tiny you end up bumping into everyone - and yes, that means having a drink with that developer you quite like, but it also means having to politely shake hands with a snooty exec that genuinely still wants you eviscerated for the time you gave his game a 6/10.
Watching people whip up spider diagrams that prove most people in games know each other was a genuinely insane waste of time - you could have just asked any of us whether or not that was true, and any one of us would have happily told you. Frankly I’ve been a bit unimpressed at how much detail these diagrams lack - everybody knows everybody. To suggest that means cronyism is very naive, mind - not everyone in the industry likes each other, they just hide that relatively well out of a sense of professionalism. It’s not something I’m personally very good at, because I’m a feisty prick who should really know better.
But the core of this call for transparency comes back to an absolute lack of trust. Yes, we all know each other. Yes, most of us have shared a drink with countless developers over the years. If you don’t trust us not to let that influence our work, then no form of transparency is going to change that - we’d simply be providing you with citations to help prove this invented corruption. If you don’t trust a writer or a publication, don’t waste your time reading their stuff.
All sorts of hard work goes on behind the scenes to ensure stuff remains above-board and ethical. I mean, look on Twitter or poke your head into a pub and ethics is practically the only thing that games journalists ever seem to bloody talk about, to the point where it’s almost downright tedious.
Perhaps constantly broadcasting this group-think neurosis has been partly to blame for the current belief that ethical problem musts exist. If that’s the case it’s brutally ironic - this desire to champion squeaky-clean practices only exists because most games media desperately want to rekindle the trust that was unfairly snatched away wholesale because of the actions of an unscrupulous few. If you think you’re still furious about the Gamespot Kane and Lynch stuff, you’ve no idea how professionals feel. To see your entire profession tarred so absolutely with the same brush as a bunch of exec pricks you’ll never even meet is properly heart-rending.
"Well if all that’s true then why are the media trying to silence our complaints?"
It’s difficult to answer this question without tweaking it a little bit, as it sort of comes packaged with the inherent suggestion that the games media is some sort of Borg-like entity that’s secretly in cahoots.
"I do think that’s true though."
Well there’s definitely a tendency for people to react in the same way when put under the same pressures, and sure - you will get a visible sense of unity when a group of people are being attacked in ways that don’t seem entirely fair. So I can see that sometimes it might appear like there’s some form of formal collaboration going on behind the scenes - with different sites from around the world working towards the same planned agendas - but obviously it’s more likely to suggest that any appearances of direct collaboration are more the result of like-minded people reacting to the same stimulus in very similar ways.
"No I do believe that the games media are working together to silence us."
Oh, right. Well that’s tricky. You’re sort of working from a frame of reference that’s so vastly different to the reality that I know exists that I’m not really sure how we can go about having a meaningful conversation. It’s like we’re trying to work together on a map of the earth, but one of us believes the world is flat and the other one believes the world is a triangle, you know?
The only way I could talk about how to improve games journalism with you would be to force my brain to entirely reject things I know to be true in favour of things you believe to be true. And I can’t prove that what you believe isn’t true, because it’s impossible to provide evidence that disproves evidence that as far as I can tell doesn’t actually exist.
Gosh, sorry- this has become awfully complicated. I guess the short version is that there’s no point in us having this conversation - I’m unable to integrate your perspective into the version of reality I know to be true, and you seem unwilling to consider the proposition that the conspiracies you believe in might not be real. So yeah, I’m off to do something else. Sorry.
"Typical! Completely unwilling to talk to us about fixing our legitimate complaints…"
(Hopefully this serves both as a FAQ for people genuinely asking me these questions, and also as a partial explanation - although not a justification - as to why many media have reacted to these criticisms with derision. It’s tough to remain rational when surrounded with madness.)
Edit: I understand that people remain very angry at what they see as journalists lashing out at the community in general, and whilst I won’t try and justify that (or even entirely accept that this isn’t even true) I’d like to ask you to consider this: When the community you’ve worked so hard to serve choose to stand beside a group of manipulative misogynists rather than entertain the idea that you might not actually be corrupt, how do you think this makes people feel?
So much of this argument boils down to a misunderstanding - the games media aren’t calling you misogynists. They don’t think you hate women. But you’ve decided that your distrust of the media is so strong that you’d rather side with dangerous bigots than believe that the media might not be corrupt, that’s a hell of a statement to be making.
There’s a lot of talk about gamers being disrespected right now, but honestly - take a step back and think about how that might actually feel. Here’s a clue: it feels fething awful. I’m doing my best to continue to talk about this stuff without getting too emotional and angry, but trust me - it remains a constant struggle.
Haha he avoided some of the questions. He did the classic. I will neither confirm nor deny its existence.
It happens mate.
Corruption is apart of our daily lives if we like it or not.
Just say it happens. ANd this is not unique to our media, we are humanity.
Because we make mistakes.
We do things that are questionable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/04 22:45:21
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/04 22:38:28
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
They probably do. Even setting aside the corruption issue entirely, gamers have shown a trend over the past 12-15 years of moving to ever increasingly diverse sources for information. Back in the late 90's, early 00's, it was all about a select group of gaming magazines that managed to really hold their interest, but with the internet the bulk of interest shifted to sites like Kotaku, The Escapist, GameFAQs, and IGN"s website (do they still print their magazine?).
Now in recent years, trust in those sources as well as interest has faded as gamers increasingly move to celebrity commentators like Total Biscuit, Jesse Cox, the Angry Video Game Nerd, Lets Plays, and Streamers. The organized field of Game journalism has been dying a slow death for awhile now (really only kept alive by grabbing up the above mentioned parties and getting exclusive access to them), even before this became an issue.
It's impossible for them not to know. If anything part of the insanity can probably be explained by the desperate desire to retain an audience, as many of the commentators I mentioned are on the opposite side of this issue.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/04 22:43:12
They probably do. Even setting aside the corruption issue entirely, gamers have shown a trend over the past 12-15 years of moving to ever increasingly diverse sources for information. Back in the late 90's, early 00's, it was all about a select group of gaming magazines that managed to really hold their interest, but with the internet the bulk of interest shifted to sites like Kotaku, The Escapist, GameFAQs, and IGN"s website (do they still print their magazine?).
Now in recent years, trust in those sources as well as interest has faded as gamers increasingly move to celebrity commentators like Total Biscuit, Jesse Cox, the Angry Video Game Nerd, Lets Plays, and Streamers. The organized field of Game journalism has been dying a slow death for awhile now (really only kept alive by grabbing up the above mentioned parties and getting exclusive access to them), even before this became an issue.
It's impossible for them not to know. If anything part of the insanity can probably be explained by the desperate desire to retain an audience, as many of the commentators I mentioned are on the opposite side of this issue.
It makes a bit more sense. With them thinking the house is burning down and they better take as much as they can with them.
I mean its their livelihoods at stake. But games journalism is dying. It has been for a very long time. I mean when I was a kid I used to watch them all the time. But I take the words from Yahtzee more than a IGN reviewer, who is downright corrupt.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/04 22:55:26
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
See, I prefer the typical reviews like what IGN does (If it did them properly). I like having someone whom I can take a review from and go into it; I never would have watched FLCL, Gurren Lagann, or Kill La Kill if it hadn't been for GRArkada, for instance (He's a reviewer of Anime on Youtube).
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2014/09/04 22:57:05
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Slarg232 wrote: See, I prefer the typical reviews like what IGN does (If it did them properly). I like having someone whom I can take a review from and go into it; I never would have watched FLCL, Gurren Lagann, or Kill La Kill if it hadn't been for GRArkada, for instance (He's a reviewer of Anime on Youtube).
See I don't like a rating system. Like the rating system should be this.... I recommend.
OR I do not recommend.
Your done.
Scores do not have to be attached to a game.
State your reasons why you recommend or do not recommend.
That is something journalists should move towards.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/04 23:41:27
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/04 22:58:41
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
I listen to Jack Frags, LevelCap, Matimi0, TotalBiscuit, Dodger "PressHeartToContinue", Yahtzee and Jim Sterling (though sometimes I think Stirling can be an obnoxious gobgak). I get the rest of my news from Wikipedia and Google.
I haven't made a habit of reading Gaming Websites for over 5 years (used to read Gamespot a lot). In fact the only time I read sites like Kotaku is when someone here links to them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/04 22:59:42
2014/09/04 23:00:19
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Respectfully disagree, it's just that the current rating system is so bugged up the butt it isn't funny; a 5 should be an Average game, not an 8....
That's why I like Angry Joe (Despite how little I agree with him on most games) and GRArkada; both use a rating system, but both still say if they recommend or not.
GRArkada gave Gurenn Lagann a 8.74 out of 10, with "A recommendation to buy the gak out of it".
(He does swear a bit)
Spoiler:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/04 23:01:00
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2014/09/04 23:17:51
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
I'm afraid I must disagree, and while I agree you should buy the gak out of it, treating Gurren Lagan like a show where you can turn your brain off works, but if you want to put on your hoity toity glasses you can enjoy the show with the perspective that it's staring NGE (and all of it's imitators who dominated super robots for over a decade) in the eye while yelling "Who the Hell do you think I am!"
EDIT: Word of God even is that the entire point of the series was to kick NGE in the balls.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/04 23:19:41
I forced purplefood and corpsesarefun to watch Gurren Lagan.
Their brains melted, it was enjoyable.
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
2014/09/04 23:26:13
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
I don't think it's possible to NOT like GL, honestly. I haven't met anyone who does..... or did for a very long time..... *Lowers crowbar*
But I'm just saying, there is a market for the type of reviews and just general Journalism that these guys offer, but they are throwing it all to the wayside; TotalBiscuit does nothing that most editorials do, Jim Sterling (Not sure he counts since he actually works for them) very much so sparks debate by taking a side, ProJared/Angry Joe/others actually review games, PDP is just plain old "Fun" (Personally I can't stand the channel)....
You could honestly rope them all up and make a pretty kick ass site if they didn't want to miss out on YT Money.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2014/09/05 00:13:26
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
I have not even clicked to play the video, but judging it by its cover, I want to scream “WTF Japan!”.
I would suggest you people this website and the associated magazine, but it is sadly only in French:
http://www.canardpc.com/
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/05 00:28:24
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Manchu - "But so what? The Bible also says the flood destroyed the world. You only need an allegorical boat to tackle an allegorical flood."
Shespits "Anything i see with YOLO has half naked eleventeen year olds Girls. And of course booze and drugs and more half naked elventeen yearolds Girls. O how i wish to YOLO again!"
Rubiksnoob "Next you'll say driving a stick with a Scandinavian supermodel on your lap while ripping a bong impairs your driving. And you know what, I'M NOT GOING TO STOP, YOU FILTHY COMMUNIST"
2014/09/05 01:09:08
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Slarg232 wrote: I don't think it's possible to NOT like GL, honestly. I haven't met anyone who does..... or did for a very long time..... *Lowers crowbar*
But I'm just saying, there is a market for the type of reviews and just general Journalism that these guys offer, but they are throwing it all to the wayside; TotalBiscuit does nothing that most editorials do, Jim Sterling (Not sure he counts since he actually works for them) very much so sparks debate by taking a side, ProJared/Angry Joe/others actually review games, PDP is just plain old "Fun" (Personally I can't stand the channel)....
You could honestly rope them all up and make a pretty kick ass site if they didn't want to miss out on YT Money.
Jim Sterling was on the side of the game journalist sites, so not really.
2014/09/05 02:55:25
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
Of course, nobody batted an eye at this back in July, and here's why
the thing is, this righteous outcry against corruption didn't start with Jeff Gerstmann being fired for his Kane & Lynch review, it didn't start with Geoff Keighley looking dead inside while sitting between piles of mountain dew and doritos, it didn't start with developers flying reviewers to resorts to play advance copies of games, it didn't start with "exclusive first looks" or reviewers being banned by developers from future access to advance copies/information because of bad reviews.
It started because a woman was accused of having sex. A woman that the shittiest parts of the gaming community had already tried and failed to drive away when she had the nerve to make a game while possessing two x chromosomes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/05 02:56:01
"With pop hits provin' unlikely, Captain Beefheart retreated to a cabin to shout at his band for months on end. The result was Trout Mask Replica."
2014/09/05 03:06:24
Subject: Re:Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
It started because a woman was accused of having sex. A woman that the shittiest parts of the gaming community had already tried and failed to drive away when she had the nerve to make a game while possessing two x chromosomes.
Man that's..
You mean the woman who was accused of levering sex for favors, promoting attacks against a place of depression to increase value of her own game..
Starting to blur a bit of one's bias into such a thought to make it as "She had sex, internet attacks her game as a result".
2014/09/05 03:19:55
Subject: Zoe Quinn and the five guys; corruption in video game journalism
