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Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren






Ever since the beginning of this year, or at least ever since 7th edition, I feel like we havent gotten any cheese codexes anymore. Tyranids, IG, Orks, Space Wolves and Grey Knights had people crying (to various levels) that they all got nerfed.

Most of these complaints however merely boil down to GW's policy of removing any and all units that do not have official GW, non-FW models. Thus this explains why Nids lost so many units, as did IG with their artillery tanks and ICs.

GW has also been following a policy of streamlining things to make them fit better with the layout of the BRB's USR section now. They started this process with 6th edition, where a lot of new USR's were introduced like Shred or Blind, things that previously were written out longhand in individual codexes.

GKs got split into their own faction and Inq. and Assassins sold separately as part of GW's overall publishing shift from codexes to detachments.

What remains are codexes without surplus cheese. The last GK codex was overpowered when it came out, and still remained strong throughout 6th edition. With psybolt ammo being ridiculously cheap on Stormravens, Rifleman dreads, and even combat squaded 10 man PAGKs, armywide psybolt was a bit too much. In any case, I havent heard people cry codex creep for quite a while now, and we have had almost half a dozen released by now. The only cheese I can think of is Paskishers and Wyvern spam.

Thoughts?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/24 21:16:45


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 Ravenous D wrote:
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Made in ca
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Halifornia, Nova Scotia

The power level or ability to produce strong lists is far from the only or even most important factor for determining the quality of the codex.

To me, the replacement of artwork for miniature photography is a downgrade. The layout is still clunky with the armory and flipping back and forth between unit entries and the section with the rules for the special wargear items.

The rules are still nothing to write home about. I find myself less inclined to keep up the books, but my understanding is that they are better internally and externally balanced, which is a positive note. Despite that, they still have a lot of room to improve, and many units are still left out in the rain.

Finally, the cutting of content, questionable fluff writing, and high cost still leaves me firmly in the camp that GW codices are in a worse spot than they were five years ago. The advantages we have now are a quick release pace and better balance. Like much with GW, its a case of one step forward and between 1 and 5 steps backward.

That said, I'd buy a lot more codices from faction I don't play if they were $30-40 cheaper. I'd also be less critical of things like artwork, fluff, and rules quality. If they're going to charge top dollar prices, I expect top dollar quality.

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Little better in power levels, but also less interesting, more random and copy pasted fluff.
Better? No.



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Power level wise the codices haven't been bad lately. I haven't really read the GK or Ork codices in detail, but the 'nids, IG and SW all seemed reasonable power level. 'nids still have horrible internal balance though and the codex in and of itself is pretty crap.

The IG codex is fine... but then it also wasn't much of a change because the old IG codex was pretty much fine too. The removal of units was the main thing that pissed me off with this one.

The SW codex actually seems pretty good, it actually improved on the internal balance.

Outside of power level and balance, they cost a fortune and the layout still sucks, not good.

Also I don't really think taking special rules out of the codex and putting them in the BRB is "streamlining". There's way too many to memorise easily, so taking them out of the codex and putting them in the BRB just means you have to put down your codex and pick up another book just to know all the rules for your unit.
   
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I remember a bunch of people really excited for the first few releases of 6th. CSM and DA came out, and a lot of people thought there would be no more power creep.

Then Deamons came out and people chalked it up to a fluke. Too random at times and some really abusive items in there but overall hard o judge.

Then Tau and Eldar. Then came the day that the courage of men failed and all bonds of fellowship were broken.

I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."

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Well they're more balanced lately. Well the ones after the whole Tau/Eldar stuff are and I hope they keep it up like this.

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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Power level wise the codices haven't been bad lately. I haven't really read the GK or Ork codices in detail, but the 'nids, IG and SW all seemed reasonable power level. 'nids still have horrible internal balance though and the codex in and of itself is pretty crap.

The IG codex is fine... but then it also wasn't much of a change because the old IG codex was pretty much fine too. The removal of units was the main thing that pissed me off with this one.

The SW codex actually seems pretty good, it actually improved on the internal balance.

Outside of power level and balance, they cost a fortune and the layout still sucks, not good.

Also I don't really think taking special rules out of the codex and putting them in the BRB is "streamlining". There's way too many to memorise easily, so taking them out of the codex and putting them in the BRB just means you have to put down your codex and pick up another book just to know all the rules for your unit.


I agree with your last point for sure! Playing Bolt Action to me is fun... enjoy the game and people instead of your head in tons of books just to figure out what one unit can do... this gets even more old when you have several armies in 40k and fantasy (unless you are so good you can memorize or play the army a lot... i am not i mostly paint anymore as its hard to find players especially with real life and what not).

What I am disliking about current books is them putting rules in a off section on a page. I scan page for a rule and miss it cause its in a black box (not in standard text) where they used to put small stories/fluff/quotes for fun.. now i have to look at everything on a page instead of scanning the standard area where one would think the rule would/should be at... they might as well hide some rules in a picture as well lol.

Game that is quick to pick up like Xwing, Bolt Action, etc where you are in action all the time and not bogged down is where I am as a gamer at moment.. i dont feel like doing research paperwork just to play logan grimnar on his santa sleigh.

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 Sir Arun wrote:
Ever since the beginning of this year, or at least ever since 7th edition, I feel like we havent gotten any cheese codexes anymore. Tyranids, IG, Orks, Space Wolves and Grey Knights had people crying (to various levels) that they all got nerfed.

Most of these complaints however merely boil down to GW's policy of removing any and all units that do not have official GW, non-FW models. Thus this explains why Nids lost so many units, as did IG with their artillery tanks and ICs.

GW has also been following a policy of streamlining things to make them fit better with the layout of the BRB's USR section now. They started this process with 6th edition, where a lot of new USR's were introduced like Shred or Blind, things that previously were written out longhand in individual codexes.

GKs got split into their own faction and Inq. and Assassins sold separately as part of GW's overall publishing shift from codexes to detachments.

What remains are codexes without surplus cheese. The last GK codex was overpowered when it came out, and still remained strong throughout 6th edition. With psybolt ammo being ridiculously cheap on Stormravens, Rifleman dreads, and even combat squaded 10 man PAGKs, armywide psybolt was a bit too much. In any case, I havent heard people cry codex creep for quite a while now, and we have had almost half a dozen released by now. The only cheese I can think of is Paskishers and Wyvern spam.

Thoughts?
I would argue that, in the IG case at least, the codex still has major internal balance issues (with Hellhounds costing as much as Leman Russ tanks, RR's and Ogryns still being worthless, etc) and the Tempestus Scions book was an unmitigated disaster such that it's not even 6 months old and practically nonexistent. Nids lost a lot of functionality and likewise still have major internal balance issues.

I think SW's came out reasonably ok, most of the issues there were losing things specific to the singular 5th edition iteration of the codex, the kind of stuff that changes all the time anyway. GK's however got hit pretty hard, their PA units are very mediocre forcing it to rely more on the terminator armored units.

I think somewhat more tellingly however, is that the new layouts have less unit "meat" than before, and a lot more "pretty pictures" of Studio models instead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/24 22:44:46


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 MWHistorian wrote:
Little better in power levels, but also less interesting, more random and copy pasted fluff.
Better? No.

Read my 6E AM codex, realized it was 5E verbatim with bits missing. Got annoyed, flipped through images, was highly uninspired (srsly, no guardsman trying to bayonet a warboss' face?), noted that the book took itself too seriously, and was grateful none of the money had actually gone to GW.
   
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Australia

Replacing good art with crappy photos of models (the space wolves where all on snow terrain but none of them actually had snow on their bases) is unforgivable imo.

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
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I picked up the Ork Codex when it came out and it feels really horrible next to the old codex.

Just photos no artwork and I don't like that the army list sections have gone it means you cant see all your options over 2 pages if you know what I mean.

I also picked up the Orc and Goblin book for 8th edition WHF. The book feels more grown up, lots of good art work and just has a better layout.

I hope to god GW keeps the Army Books as they are and don't go all 40k on them.

I am seriously considering not bothering getting the SW codex as I hate the layout.


 
   
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 Savageconvoy wrote:
Then Tau and Eldar. Then came the day that the courage of men failed and all bonds of fellowship were broken.

That made me laugh. Great stuff

I'm actually pretty happy with the balance between the most recently released books. I play Nidz so I know that within books the internal balance can be pretty bad, but the overall product isn't awful IMO. I think most of the updated books are reasonably (not perfectly) balanced, excluding Eldar. If the rest of the updates turn out to be comparable to the strength of latest stuff I'll be happy.


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GW's been doing a better job balancing the codices, but they've been adding a lot less. Tau and Eldar are the real outliers here; everything else they've come out with is generally on a pretty similar power curve, with Dark Angels being at the bottom.

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Gargantuan Gargant





New Bedford, MA USA

I like the new codexes.

My ownly have 2 complaints

1.) I want the special rules on the same page as the Dataslate, so I don't have to go look for them

2.)I want the fluff about each unit on the page adjacent to the dataslate.

So read the fiction about a unit on the page on the left, followed by all the rules for the unit on the page on the right.

It's as if the GW staff has never looked at a D&D monster manual

   
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 Big Mac wrote:
Wonder why that is..(banishment of Ward!)


Eldar: Broke the game balance, Wave Serpents, Wraith Knights: written by PHIL KELLY

Tau: Also broke the game balance, Rip Tides, Buffmanders: written by JAMES VETOCK

Chaos Daemons: 2++ Invulnerable Rerolls: Written by PHIL KELLY

Get over it.
   
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New Bedford, MA USA

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 Brother SRM wrote:
GW's been doing a better job balancing the codices, but they've been adding a lot less. Tau and Eldar are the real outliers here; everything else they've come out with is generally on a pretty similar power curve, with Dark Angels being at the bottom.


Fortunately, Tau has come down to Earth a bit in 7th Ed. Eldar is still wrecking face though.

http://www.torrentoffire.com/5612/7th-edition-three-months-in

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 Chaplain Sam wrote:
 Brother SRM wrote:
GW's been doing a better job balancing the codices, but they've been adding a lot less. Tau and Eldar are the real outliers here; everything else they've come out with is generally on a pretty similar power curve, with Dark Angels being at the bottom.


Fortunately, Tau has come down to Earth a bit in 7th Ed. Eldar is still wrecking face though.

http://www.torrentoffire.com/5612/7th-edition-three-months-in


*Checks*

Chaos Space Marines are below the Dark Angels!?

But above IG, Orks, Blood angels, and dark eldar.

Course this was before Orks/SW update.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/25 00:53:18


 
   
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The new codex's are boring and that's the biggest sin a game company can make.



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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Chaplain Sam wrote:
 Brother SRM wrote:
GW's been doing a better job balancing the codices, but they've been adding a lot less. Tau and Eldar are the real outliers here; everything else they've come out with is generally on a pretty similar power curve, with Dark Angels being at the bottom.


Fortunately, Tau has come down to Earth a bit in 7th Ed. Eldar is still wrecking face though.

http://www.torrentoffire.com/5612/7th-edition-three-months-in


*Checks*

Chaos Space Marines are below the Dark Angels!?

But above IG, Orks, Blood angels, and dark eldar.

Course this was before Orks/SW update.


Yeah, I was stunned when I saw the stats on Dark Angels. It's not a perfect representation of army strength, of course. But it is something!

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 Savageconvoy wrote:
Then Tau and Eldar. Then came the day that the courage of men failed and all bonds of fellowship were broken.


So.....everyone started playing Lord of the Rings again?

(I kid, I kid!)

As someone who got back in during 5th when people cared a lot more about crunch than fluff it's good to see that the game is starting to potentially level out in that regards. The unit/fluff/model image entries harken back to what GW used to do in 3rd and that's fine with me honestly. It wasn't a horrible layout, though I'm still used to wargear being before the unit stuff so I need to get used to that still.

The fluff is about on par with what we usually get and in some places better so I'm okay with that.

I'm sure someone will yell at me and say I'm wrong, but I don't hate the current design for the codexes.

As for the main rulebook, it's got a good index, which it needs badly because things are kind of shotgunned through-out the book in a way that makes you need to look it up to find it. Also I noticed yesterday that codex formations don't have a symbol on the rulebook (that I could find) but they have one in the codexes themselves.
   
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Galveston County

I like 7th. Yes I said it. You can check my gnashing of teeth history prior to it being released, but that had more to do with a full edition being released just under 2 years from the last one.

At least they saw 6th for the train wreck it was - that's all I can say.

I like the Space Wolves codex and the Dark Angels and the CSM - hence I am playing all three. Are they the power mongers they enjoyed in previous editions?

No, but I suppose I don't play that way either - so... (and maybe DA have never been top tier, but Ravenwing are sooo much fun )

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Well, the new rule set is quite good. Some problems caused in the 6th ed have been fixed.
However, I find that the codices are rather uninspired with a severe lack of ideas, orginality, and ingenuity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/25 10:15:49


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 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, the new rule set is quite good. Some problems caused in the 6th ed have been fixed.
However, I find that the codices are rather uninspired with a severe lack of ideas, orginality, and ingenuity.

Mostly because rather than the two+ months per codex that the devs used to get, the seem to only get a couple of weeks. Which means they only have time to hastily slap some stuff together, and try to follow GW's new standards. And by standards, I mean make the things that don't sell well, sell lots.
   
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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Big Mac wrote:
Wonder why that is..(banishment of Ward!)


Eldar: Broke the game balance, Wave Serpents, Wraith Knights: written by PHIL KELLY

Tau: Also broke the game balance, Rip Tides, Buffmanders: written by JAMES VETOCK

Chaos Daemons: 2++ Invulnerable Rerolls: Written by PHIL KELLY

Get over it.
What you don't know is that Matt Ward was behind their backs, whispering his vile perversions in their ears while they were writing the codices. So Ward is still responsible. All bad things come from Ward.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
 Savageconvoy wrote:
Then Tau and Eldar. Then came the day that the courage of men failed and all bonds of fellowship were broken.


So.....everyone started playing Lord of the Rings again?

(I kid, I kid!)
Maybe we should. Lord of the Rings probably was the best and most balanced ruleset written by GW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/25 10:35:58


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 ClockworkZion wrote:


The fluff is about on par with what we usually get and in some places better so I'm okay with that.



7-th Ork's fluff lacks this insane humorous spark of the old ork fluff and feels like reading another space-marine style codex fluff. Predictable and some stuff outright boring. There are just a few nice 'new' lines in the whole codex worth reading now.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/25 11:04:49


 
   
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 Selym wrote:
 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, the new rule set is quite good. Some problems caused in the 6th ed have been fixed.
However, I find that the codices are rather uninspired with a severe lack of ideas, orginality, and ingenuity.

Mostly because rather than the two+ months per codex that the devs used to get, the seem to only get a couple of weeks. Which means they only have time to hastily slap some stuff together, and try to follow GW's new standards. And by standards, I mean make the things that don't sell well, sell lots.



Except for the fact that these codices are written well before they're released. The developers have way more time than people think to write these books even with a rapid release schedule



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If they redo Eldar in the near future and correct it to bring them into the fold I would say yes.

Chances are they will at the actual speed of release I can't see them only doing supplements when so many codexes doesn't have updated Lords of War, Elites count as Troops, special FoC and built-in formations.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/25 13:32:27


 
   
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Remember when 6th came out? CSM and DA were rolled out, and both seemed OK. CSM had the black mace, but the heldrake wasn't turret mounted, so it wasn't seen as a threat. I think Spawn rush was the tactic of the time. DA didn't really have anything scary either. I was thinking the same thing back then. "Maybe 6th edition is the balancing edition". Then Tau, Daemons and Eldar came out. It took Daemons a little while to get situated, but when they did, they were gods.

7th balanced out almost all the old 6th shenanigans, and some in gakky ways. While the last 3 books have been more balanced, the assassins seem to be on the verge of crazypants, right up there with the knight titan and Be'Lakor.

Maybe codex will come in line, and dataslates will be the way to get that extra oomph in power.

I think we have to wait and see what happens to necrons and DE. Blood angels... eh, Marines havent been top dogs since 5th edition rhino rush died.

   
 
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