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This is from Infinity's FB page. (because they actually have one)

Due to the BIG success of O:I pre-order, we need to produce the double of the initial number of boxes, so this will cause a little delay to arrive to stores (only a few days, not weeks or months). Sorry for the inconvenience.

Doubled their expectations. Now compare that with Dystopian Wars outselling 7th ed 40k and I'd call that mounting evidence that the piranhas are circling the shark. GW has competition and they need to learn that quick before they go down. I actually don't want them to. I want them to turn around so I can like them again.

 MWHistorian wrote:
This is from Infinity's FB page. (because they actually have one)

Due to the BIG success of O:I pre-order, we need to produce the double of the initial number of boxes, so this will cause a little delay to arrive to stores (only a few days, not weeks or months). Sorry for the inconvenience.

Doubled their expectations. Now compare that with Dystopian Wars outselling 7th ed 40k and I'd call that mounting evidence that the piranhas are circling the shark. GW has competition and they need to learn that quick before they go down. I actually don't want them to. I want them to turn around so I can like them again.

That store that said Dyst outsold 40k has since relieved that GW products make up only 10-15% of their revenue.

Herzlos wrote:
They seem to also view sellers of their own spare bits as money out of their pockets for the same reason. You want a squad of devastators with 4 rocket launchers? Buy 4 boxes.

On the flip side of that, when Concord Mills still had a store, the manager was the first person that actually encouraged me to buy a box (HTG I can't remember what it was though...it was a Chaos unit...) and trade the bitz out to another player he knew was looking for the pieces, I needed. And we did. In store.

But what has annoyed me, is when someone buys a box of devastators and sets them out and the opponent laughs or mocks them for having the HB, ML, PC, and Las set up as if that person should of not only KNEW that it wasn't optimized but was somehow a sign of inferiority. And the opponent will brag that he DID buy 4 boxes to get his squads the weapon set ups. And a 'real' 40K player would do the same.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

But what has annoyed me, is when someone buys a box of devastators and sets them out and the opponent laughs or mocks them for having the HB, ML, PC, and Las set up as if that person should of not only KNEW that it wasn't optimized but was somehow a sign of inferiority. And the opponent will brag that he DID buy 4 boxes to get his squads the weapon set ups. And a 'real' 40K player would do the same.

You're playing with a bunch of jerks, man.

Off Topic:

You know what annoys me? Jerks.

Herzlos wrote:
They seem to also view sellers of their own spare bits as money out of their pockets for the same reason. You want a squad of devastators with 4 rocket launchers? Buy 4 boxes.

That is GW exact way of thinking. Problem is when people don't want to do that, you should be adapting. What ever happened to GIVING your CUSTOMERS what they WANT.

Rant time, sorry.

For what ever reason, GW thinks we need to bend over backwards for GW. Funny people use to do that, but now the value is not there anymore with price increase after price increase after price increase. GW doesn't have to increase prices anymore and people will still balk because the prices are just too insane now.

People say GW is a luxury. Well Monopoly, checkers is a luxury as well. GW is no Porsche. GW is not Ford either because then they would claim they are a Cadillac. GW is just a regular company that isn't anything special. They use to be special but now what ever they had is gone because of crappy rules, poor materials (Finecast) HORRIBLE support, and add all that together, you get price increases, so GW doesn't set it's self out from other companies now.

GW has to stop thinking they are a Ferrari. As I said they are not even a Porsche in the gaming industry anymore. GW has to realize who and what they are actually now. That will not happen because I believe GW is happy where they are. Having only 2000 or so customers who are willing to keep buying no matter what. It doesn't matter that 10 000 people have stopped buying. All that means is GW doesn't have to produce as much anymore. GW thinks they can make more money with less customers.

That is why I think GW acts so smug and disrespectful. By keeping quiet and ignoring everyone doesn't make them the "evil company" they are, but by keeping quiet they are not showing us they are the company "that cares and respects" it's customers either.

Herzlos wrote:
They seem to also view sellers of their own spare bits as money out of their pockets for the same reason. You want a squad of devastators with 4 rocket launchers? Buy 4 boxes.

That's an odd attitude for them to take, as I'm guessing a considerable percentage of their sales are to bitz companies?

There's no way to tell. I think it was just a desperate attempt to boost sales

 Pacific wrote:

But, that was some years ago. I did hear that they tightened up a great deal, specifically when the official Horus Heresy books and minis started coming out (not sure to what level this restricted things however).

That's useful to know man. I'm wary of overdoing conversions and making my army "non-GW compliant", so to speak. Csutomisation comes first for me, but I would still like to be able to use it in tournaments.

It's a shame its gone that way really. I'd say it was a great laugh when the hobby was just kicking off ,people showed up at tournaments using all kinds of miniatures and nobody cared.

nkelsch wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

And as to the 'PP is cheaper even though it has the same prices as GW', GW has explicitly said 2/3rds of their customers never play the game.

GW as stated and takes pride in the fact that it doesn't do any market research, ergo they have no way of knowing what their customers do or don't do so any statement that they put out on this is completely irrelevant since it has no basis in actual facts.

Jervis has said during interviews that two thirds of their customers never actually play their game. They call them "craft hobbyists" and see them as their core market.

The issue is there is a significant market of people who buy minis but don't play specific games, so 'cost per mini' is perfectly relevant. This makes GW and PP both similar in cost and are both expensive. 'Cost of entry' doesn't make figures cheaper when entry is a single figure to paint/collect.

And if gaming isn't a factor, wouldn't people be buying individual PP (or whoever) models just as much as GW ones? You'd have a hard time arguing that GW miniatures are vastly more appealing to a painter than anybody else's. Seems to me if I was buying stuff just for painting, I'd search around for something specific that really appeals to me and then buy it, regardless of who makes it.

In all honesty probably 85% of the reason I buy minis is just as a collector rather than as a gamer. I'm 29, have high disposable income and probably spend anywhere from £200-£600 a year on GW. Maybe more if I really thought about it. Apart from the odd and very occasional kickstarter deal for interesting minis I just like the look of, I only ever buy GW products, or 3rd party bits to customise GW stuff.

Despite the fact that I mainly collect as a hobbyist/modeller/painter rather than as a gamer, I buy GW stuff because I like buying into the fluff and the game and the idea even if I don't actually play the game very often. As such, it's highly unlikely that I would by anything from PP, Infinity, WarmaHordes or whatever else is out there.

Also, despite the fact that I happen to fit the bracket GW think is there main market, I genuinely believe this is more by luck than judgement on their part and that they are as out of touch with their customers as the internet thinks they are. How any retailer can justify the kind of market research policy they have is completely beyond me. If it was up to me I think they should bin off all of the bricks and mortar stores they have (except Warhammer World) and use 100% of the savings/released revenue/capital/money for Market Research, R&D and Advertising.

Just my take on things...

I don't think they should bin all of their bricks & mortar stores; just the smaller/uunprofitable ones and maybe ones with nearby independents or toy stores they can strike deals with to keep the range visible.

No point having your own store if you can have a counter in Toys'R'Us or Hobbycraft.

Instead of binning all of them they should consolidate. Take 10 stores that are ea ch 1 man and the size of a shoe closet and replace them with 1 battle bunker with 20+ tables, 3-5 staff on at all times, the full range on their shelves, more popular FW stuff, FFG RPGs, run official events.

There are plenty of successful gaming stores out there, hell more than a few of them are run by ex GW employees. Take a page out of their book and rebuild the damn community.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Instead of binning all of them they should consolidate. Take 10 stores that are ea ch 1 man and the size of a shoe closet and replace them with 1 battle bunker with 20+ tables, 3-5 staff on at all times, the full range on their shelves, more popular FW stuff, FFG RPGs, run official events.

There are plenty of successful gaming stores out there, hell more than a few of them are run by ex GW employees. Take a page out of their book and rebuild the damn community.

That is exactly what they should do. Perhaps not quite closing 9 out of eveery 10 stores, but you have the right idea. Unfortuantely you'll find they might be stuck in old-school business philosophy which mandates that they have a store in every large town. That may have worked fine in the 90's but its probalby becoming a huge drain on their resources now.

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Instead of binning all of them they should consolidate. Take 10 stores that are ea ch 1 man and the size of a shoe closet and replace them with 1 battle bunker with 20+ tables, 3-5 staff on at all times, the full range on their shelves, more popular FW stuff, FFG RPGs, run official events.

There are plenty of successful gaming stores out there, hell more than a few of them are run by ex GW employees. Take a page out of their book and rebuild the damn community.

That is exactly what they should do. Perhaps not quite closing 9 out of eveery 10 stores, but you have the right idea. Unfortuantely you'll find they might be stuck in old-school business philosophy which mandates that they have a store in every large town. That may have worked fine in the 90's but its probalby becoming a huge drain on their resources now.

I don't think its a 90s mentality, I think it's a UK mentality. The population density there and the amount of stores they have opened in the last 20 years meant it worked (for a while at least) but it can't possibly work in the US, Australia or.. actually I have no idea if it would work in Europe. I quite possibly could but as far as I know GW don't have many stores there.

It can work in the US in certain areas. The store by me did over $3,000 in sales just on Friday. They're having a hard time keeping stuff like imperial knights and the large army boxes in stock. They need to close the stores that aren't hitting their numbers and figure out what the difference is between the failing stores and the thriving ones. I'm sure location has something to do with it. However, a year ago the store near me was doing $1,200 a week. The only thing that changed was the manager. The new manager made more gaming space, constantly has a fun event going on where purchase isn't mandatory but the type of event boosts sales, and doesn't use hard selling techniques. He alternates between 40k and WFB events so nobody goes too long without an event and nobody gets burnt out from constant leagues and campaigns. Maybe they should try this approach in their other stores. We have enough population density here for stores in affluent suburbs of large cities to do very well, they just need to be run properly.

Stores not hitting the numbers. I wonder why? Move to one man stores where they are not open all the time, and are out in secluded areas where they will not get any walk in traffic.

I wonder who thought this was a great idea? Did GW actually think that us customers would flock to them no matter where they went and what they did?

Davor wrote:
I wonder who thought this was a great idea? Did GW actually think that us customers would flock to them no matter where they went and what they did?

Looking at their business policies and the that comes out of their upper management's mouths it's not a stretch at all to think that is exactly what they think.

 jonolikespie wrote:

Davor wrote:
I wonder who thought this was a great idea? Did GW actually think that us customers would flock to them no matter where they went and what they did?

Looking at their business policies and the that comes out of their upper management's mouths it's not a stretch at all to think that is exactly what they think.

Are you saying all that stuff is true? Those Premables or what ever they were called for the share holders? You mean that wasn't a hoax? No way on earth I would think a CEO of a company would ever say that. I thoughts someone was making things up for a good laugh. Wow, GW management really thinks that?

Davor wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

Davor wrote:
I wonder who thought this was a great idea? Did GW actually think that us customers would flock to them no matter where they went and what they did?

Looking at their business policies and the that comes out of their upper management's mouths it's not a stretch at all to think that is exactly what they think.

Are you saying all that stuff is true? Those Premables or what ever they were called for the share holders? You mean that wasn't a hoax? No way on earth I would think a CEO of a company would ever say that. I thoughts someone was making things up for a good laugh. Wow, GW management really thinks that?

Allen Merret said, under oath, in a bloody courtroom: "Games Day is a place where our fans can participate in their favourite part of the Hobby, buying things from Games Workshop."

Davor wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

Davor wrote:
I wonder who thought this was a great idea? Did GW actually think that us customers would flock to them no matter where they went and what they did?

Looking at their business policies and the that comes out of their upper management's mouths it's not a stretch at all to think that is exactly what they think.

Are you saying all that stuff is true? Those Premables or what ever they were called for the share holders? You mean that wasn't a hoax? No way on earth I would think a CEO of a company would ever say that. I thoughts someone was making things up for a good laugh. Wow, GW management really thinks that?

It was so bad this time that most of use really believed it was a hoax, even though it was on their official investors page. Unfortunately, it turned out to be completely true; you couldn't make up stuff that bad.

 jonolikespie wrote:

Allen Merret said, under oath, in a bloody courtroom: "Games Day is a place where our fans can participate in their favourite part of the Hobby, buying things from Games Workshop."

Wow, so that is what GW management thinks of us their customers? We are sheep or drones eh?

Thank you for sharing that quote.

Davor wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

Allen Merret said, under oath, in a bloody courtroom: "Games Day is a place where our fans can participate in their favourite part of the Hobby, buying things from Games Workshop."

Wow, so that is what GW management thinks of us their customers? We are sheep or drones eh?

Thank you for sharing that quote.

He's not far off the truth tho. How many times has the "I hate GW, I'm just gonna buy the things I need to finish my army then I'm done with them" line been trotted out? Hate the company, so throw more money their way and keep playing their game, which they update so people have to keep throwing money at them and griping whilst doing it.

People love buying new minis!

Hey, it's a good hobby. That's what brings people back.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:


He's not far off the truth tho. How many times has the "I hate GW, I'm just gonna buy the things I need to finish my army then I'm done with them" line been trotted out? Hate the company, so throw more money their way and keep playing their game, which they update so people have to keep throwing money at them and griping whilst doing it.

People love buying new minis!

There's no reason to drop a game you like just because you don't like the company though. There are lots of people who would probably buy extras and multiple armies that are now focusing on getting to a complete state and stop purchasing. Yes it's some money for GW but it's less than they'd otherwise have gotten and it still allows those customers to play the game.

Herzlos wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:


He's not far off the truth tho. How many times has the "I hate GW, I'm just gonna buy the things I need to finish my army then I'm done with them" line been trotted out? Hate the company, so throw more money their way and keep playing their game, which they update so people have to keep throwing money at them and griping whilst doing it.

People love buying new minis!

There's no reason to drop a game you like just because you don't like the company though. There are lots of people who would probably buy extras and multiple armies that are now focusing on getting to a complete state and stop purchasing. Yes it's some money for GW but it's less than they'd otherwise have gotten and it still allows those customers to play the game.

I'd argue that disliking the company is a great reason for not giving them money.

It's a great reason for not giving them *more* money. Why decry customers for wanting to spend a small amount to get them to a stage where they never need to purchase again instead of bodging by with an almost complete army?

Ideally they could proxy something else in though.

Herzlos wrote:
It's a great reason for not giving them *more* money. Why decry customers for wanting to spend a small amount to get them to a stage where they never need to purchase again instead of bodging by with an almost complete army?

Ideally they could proxy something else in though.

Hence GW's "add something new, make it very good" to keep people buying. When is an army ever complete?

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
It's a great reason for not giving them *more* money. Why decry customers for wanting to spend a small amount to get them to a stage where they never need to purchase again instead of bodging by with an almost complete army?

Ideally they could proxy something else in though.

Hence GW's "add something new, make it very good" to keep people buying. When is an army ever complete?

When you get fed up with GW's "add something new and 50/50 chance it'll be good or garbage, buy White Dwarf and the Codex, preferably the LE one, to find out!!" "marketing" "strategy".

 Adam-Wayland wrote:
Hey, it's a good hobby. That's what brings people back.

I wonder how many customers who feel that they have been treated poorly, or somehow got poor value for money, would look at the wide spectrum of different available games if they had the choice?

This is where you guys come in surely.. ?

It's all of the arguments again monopolies in motion - companyies that have sole control of an industry become fat, lazy and lacking in vision, and push the customer as far as they can while giving as little as possible in return. Having several top line companies, producing quality miniatures and games, is beneficial for the industry and ultimately better for the customer. But for this to happen some of those customers will have to have the wherewithal to look around on the shelves and see what else is for sale - if enough people do this, then hopefully even those fat toads will turn lazily to the diminishing pile of cash they are sitting on and jump on that treadmill, start thinking about what else they can do - and again, this is good for the customers of that company who still enjoy their products but perhaps wish they would try a little harder.

Herzlos wrote:
It's a great reason for not giving them *more* money. Why decry customers for wanting to spend a small amount to get them to a stage where they never need to purchase again instead of bodging by with an almost complete army?

Ideally they could proxy something else in though.

That is so true. How much more money would I have spent? Right now, I only bought a few books. Why? Because I wanted to read. I am a Tyranid player. I didn't spend much money on minis. What, a Harpy kit was all I bought when the new edition of Nids came out. 2 data slates, not the last one. Last purchase I bought was the iPad 7th edition book. Final purchase. Was going to start Orks for the wife, but nope. No more. So now I don't buy GW for now. I am not saying I am never going to buy GW anymore, but for now after my last purchase, that was what, May I think when 7th came out, so that is now 5 months of no GW purchase. Maybe one day I will buy something again, but for now, no. I don't give GW "more" money. I might give them some in the future, but it would have been something that I would have purchased months ago.