The "gender identity" thing

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**easysauce**

You are missing the point crystal.

Biology is the only evidence for GENDER (which is still the proper term for it, despite some people wanting its definition to change, this is still an acceptable and in use term for sex)

Regardless of anyones opinion of if the proper term is gender or sex,

how ever you want to label the nomenclature for "this is the term for person with ____ biological features man/woman/hermaphrodite/ect/ect" it is rooted in a measureable, physical way.

identities, are rooted in social constructs, and are inherantly subjective, what is maculine one place is effeminate in another.

One is 100% not defined by the other, you can have xy genes and a penis (physical male by definition) and still have, and be accepted/welcomed lovingly/warmly/ect, as a female(or other) identity.

One is a physical construct, one is a mental(social) construct.

Hence why asking for physcal proof of a non physical thing is absurd.

**LordofHats**

blaktoof wrote:
Yes but not because they need help. it's part of the process of ensuring that someone getting sex reassignment is mentally prepared for the procedure and the changes that will come to their life following it, as well to cover the doctor's back and ensure that there isn't an underlying condition effecting the patient's judgement. It's really more of a formality these days than an actual necessity.

not quite.

the psych eval has to be performed by a psychologist experienced with gender disorders, and their eval has to be examined by another mental health professional to verify it as valid. They have to be diagnosed with not just having feelings, but having the transexualism condition as described by the DSM-IV, also known as gender identity disorder.

The first step involves making certain that there are no other psychological or psychiatric co-existing conditions that cause severe distress for the person, and in some cases may be the true cause of the desire to change sex. Examples might be: schizophrenia, substance abuse, homosexuality that is not psychologically acceptable to the person, and borderline personality disorder.

Next in the psychological treatment is to determine the emotional stability of the person with Gender Identity Disorder. While many have experienced extreme emotional discomfort from having to appear as a member of the sex opposite of the one they believe themselves to be psychologically, it is important that there be basic emotional stability present before the medical procedures can begin.

The above processes should normally take a year or more to evaluate.

There are many people who think they have gender identity disorder, or "decided" they had it when in fact they had other psychological problems. In some cases they are not allowed gender reassignment surgery, and in some they convince someone that they should get it and they often regret it after.

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/research

the above link is a site hosted by someone who had a sex change. There are many people who had "other" psychological issues and thought they had gender identity disorder and regretted their decision, and there are other people who had gender identity disorder, and they had the sex change, and it wasn't enough and that made them worse. So sometimes gender "reassignment" is actually a bad idea.

Educational

**Da Boss**

Oh, and I'm entirely neutral on gender reassignment therapy. In some cases it works well for people, in other cases it doesn't. I think though that it's such a long term process that hopefully people who are not fully committed would be weeded out.

I know a person from University who is going through reassignment at the moment, and I was a little nervous when I heard it, for the reason that this is someone who is given to dramatic gestures and changes of tack- was initially a fervent christian, then a militant atheist, and has bounced from cause to cause since then. But I'd not say anything to them about it, because in the end of the day it's their choice and you've got to let people make their own decisions.

**easysauce**

jasper76 wrote:
easysauce wrote:
IE when a man, who identifies as something not a man, wants to compete with women, who identify as woman, in the olympics and claim its not a psycical advantage.

Gotcha....I couldn't give 2 cheerios about the Olympics, or whether men do or don't compete against women in leisure activities, so I guess I don't have an opinion on how this works out in sports. Male and Female-designated facilities I suppose are the only area where I see this having much meaning.

right, exactly,

its basically a non issue, and really, shouldnt be an issue at all as we could easily have men+women+everything else all competing in the same division.

that we have such divisions at all is mainly due to phsycal differences between people (IE men in general can lift more weight then woman, so its not fair for them to compete in the same division), and social reasons (IE women dont want to change in the same room at the YMCA as men as they dont want to be seen naked)

personally, I am all for everyone doing everything in one big group, but I am also ok with separating things.

some people will have problems with either solution, I think the way we have it now just causes the least # of people to be "left out" as it were.

**daedalus**

easysauce wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
How do you all get around the hermaphrodite issue? Just sayin....

I ont see why that is an issue... they are hermaphrodites, we have a term for that psyical reality when someone has both.

there is no "social definition" of hermaphrodite roles, and any given are inherently flawed for the reasons I mentioned,

there is however, a physical definition that is universal.

gender =/= gender identity they are not equivelent.

the words that would actually be more interchangable would be identity = gender identy (or GI is part of an overal identity)

basically, no one gives two cheerios over what you identify as,

people only care once that person starts to assert that their "identity" overides psyical realities.

IE when a man, who identifies as something not a man, wants to compete with women, who identify as woman, in the olympics and claim its not a psycical advantage.

That's compelling to me. In most venues, we don't expect women to be able to physically compete with men. Is that archaic, or is it a valid segregation? Should someone with a male sex be able to compete against women because ((s)he?) feels like ((s)he?) should be a woman?

**Da Boss**

That is an interesting question with few easy answers, alright. It's only going to come up in a vanishingly small number of cases, but I believe it has come up recently- in the last olympics?

**Crystal-Maze**

easysauce wrote:

Biology is the only evidence for GENDER (which is still the proper term for it, despite some people wanting its definition to change, this is still an acceptable and in use term for sex)

Regardless of anyones opinion of if the proper term is gender or sex,

how ever you want to label the nomenclature for "this is the term for person with ____ biological features man/woman/hermaphrodite/ect/ect" it is rooted in a measureable, physical way.

OK, we won't get into whether or not the meaning of words is allowed to change over time. If its worth anything, the definition I took was the one that comes up for 'definition of gender' on the main page of google, so is at least very common.

easysauce wrote:

identities, are rooted in social constructs, and are inherantly subjective, what is maculine one place is effeminate in another.

One is 100% not defined by the other, you can have xy genes and a penis (physical male by definition) and still have, and be accepted/welcomed lovingly/warmly/ect, as a female(or other) identity.

One is a physical construct, one is a mental(social) construct.

Hence why asking for physcal proof of a non physical thing is absurd.

One cannot have a physical proof of a social construct. What you can have is a definition. For example, justice/law is a social construct, but it has a clear definition, being a big book of rules. If the definition of law varied from person to person, we would have anarchy. However, the definition of 'man' does this, being intensely subjective. This doesn't mean that everyone is right, it means that when we say 'man' to mean things other than 'has a penis' we aren't communicating very well at all.

**Ensis Ferrae**

daedalus wrote:

That's compelling to me. In most venues, we don't expect women to be able to physically compete with men. Is that archaic, or is it a valid segregation? Should someone with a male sex be able to compete against women because ((s)he?) feels like ((s)he?) should be a woman?

In most athletic venues/cases, it is a valid segregation. I cannot think of a single sport where a women's World Record time/score is higher than any of their male counterparts. On the flip side of this... We allow women into men's locker rooms in places like the NFL, NBA, etc. due to "equal rights" for women in the press... yet, I don't believe that we allow male sports journalists into the "women's locker room" for post match/game interviews.

Crystal-Maze wrote:

One cannot have a physical proof of a social construct. What you can have is a definition. For example, justice/law is a social construct, but it has a clear definition, being a big book of rules. If the definition of law varied from person to person, we would have anarchy. However, the definition of 'man' does this, being intensely subjective. This doesn't mean that everyone is right, it means that when we say 'man' to mean things other than 'has a penis' we aren't communicating very well at all.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/610618.page

There ya go

**Knockagh**

I am male and like being male, it's great I'm glad I'm not a woman. Because it makes getting naked with my wife much more fun. I also like male things, working hard and working out doors. I enjoy making things with my hands I enjoy sports. I am probably what people would say is a traditional male in every way. I'm glad I'm not confused about my gender and feel sorry for people who are, it must be an awful.

I remain a happy man who is, partially at least defined by my gender.

**blaktoof**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
daedalus wrote:

That's compelling to me. In most venues, we don't expect women to be able to physically compete with men. Is that archaic, or is it a valid segregation? Should someone with a male sex be able to compete against women because ((s)he?) feels like ((s)he?) should be a woman?

In most athletic venues/cases, it is a valid segregation. I cannot think of a single sport where a women's World Record time/score is higher than any of their male counterparts. On the flip side of this... We allow women into men's locker rooms in places like the NFL, NBA, etc. due to "equal rights" for women in the press... yet, I don't believe that we allow male sports journalists into the "women's locker room" for post match/game interviews.

Crystal-Maze wrote:

One cannot have a physical proof of a social construct. What you can have is a definition. For example, justice/law is a social construct, but it has a clear definition, being a big book of rules. If the definition of law varied from person to person, we would have anarchy. However, the definition of 'man' does this, being intensely subjective. This doesn't mean that everyone is right, it means that when we say 'man' to mean things other than 'has a penis' we aren't communicating very well at all.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/610618.page

There ya go

that comment about men and women in each others locker rooms has long standing issues within society in western cultures, which is the reason despite the fact 40% of rape victims are men, only 2%of rape victims are men due to the definition of what rape is versus what other sexual violations are.

There are lot of double standards that exist because of the idea of "woman" and the idea of "man" that having nothing to do with the reality of the situation.

the reason the segregation in sports exists is purely biological, despite how someone may identify or what plastic surgery they have had to make their sex phenotype appear to be something other than their sex genotype, they are still men or women. Unless you have specific genetic abnormalities you are either XX = female or XY = male. One of the things that this affects is ratio of muscle to body fat, if you are male you are going to have a higher ratio of muscle to body fat then if you are female with the same DNA (minus the y chromosome of course

) that's just the way it is. Much like in the animal kingdom male animals tend to be flash and colorful, especially with insects and birds, and females tend to be boring looking and large. Human females retain more fat then males because they biologically have the equipment to give birth and their bodys know this regardless of what their brain may think, and their bodies will do whatever they can to retain fat instead of produce muscle if it has the option. Of course there are women that would beat your face in, but if that same woman was a man instead they would have an even higher ratio of muscle/fat. This has a large impact in physical activities such as certain sports which favor muscle ratio and strength versus other things.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

DarkTraveler777 wrote:
I think that is a little rude and stupid considering one group uses make up to blend into society and another group uses make up to pretend they are pop culture characters.

Well, the comparison was not perfect, but does that make it rude? If so, I apologize.

**Iron_Captain**

easysauce wrote:
You are missing the point crystal.

Biology is the only evidence for GENDER (which is still the proper term for it, despite some people wanting its definition to change, this is still an acceptable and in use term for sex)

Wait...
Gender is also a different word for sex? Kirya is confused now... How would one use that in a sentence? I would like to have gender with you?

Da Boss wrote:
Sigvatr, Iron Captain:
Even biological gender is not "binary". You can have people who are XX, people who are XY. That's the "norm" in the vast majority of cases. But it is a fact that you can also have people who are XXX, XXY, XYY and so on. Rare cases, often not "traditional" transexuals, more likely suffering from a variety of genetic complaints due to the extra chromosomes interfering with gene expression.

I didn't know people could have 3 chromosomes! Perhaps I should stay home from school and be on Dakka all day. I learn more here

So... How would a XXX person look like?

**blaktoof**

XXX
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FXXY

Thus, Triple X syndrome most often has only mild effects, or has no unusual effects at all. Symptoms may include tall stature; small head (microcephaly); vertical skinfolds that may cover the inner corners of the eyes (epicanthal folds); speech and language learning disabilities, such as dyslexia; or weak muscle tone.[2] The symptoms vary from person to person, with some women being more affected than others. There are seldom any observable physical anomalies in Triple X females, other than being taller than average.

During puberty, the physical traits of the syndrome become more evident; because these boys do not produce as much testosterone as other boys, they have a less muscular body, less facial and body hair, and broader hips. As teens, XXY males may develop breast tissue[14] and also have weaker bones, and a lower energy level than other males.[5]

XXY
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTriple_X_syndrome

By adulthood, XXY males look similar to males without the condition, although they are often taller. In adults, possible characteristics vary widely and include little to no signs of affectedness, a lanky, youthful build and facial appearance, or a rounded body type with some degree of gynecomastia (increased breast tissue).[15] Gynecomastia is present to some extent in about a third of affected individuals, a slightly higher percentage than in the XY population. About 10% of XXY males have gynecomastia noticeable enough that they may choose to have cosmetic surgery.[4]

**sirlynchmob**

daedalus wrote:
easysauce wrote:
jasper76 wrote:
How do you all get around the hermaphrodite issue? Just sayin....

I ont see why that is an issue... they are hermaphrodites, we have a term for that psyical reality when someone has both.

there is no "social definition" of hermaphrodite roles, and any given are inherently flawed for the reasons I mentioned,

there is however, a physical definition that is universal.

gender =/= gender identity they are not equivelent.

the words that would actually be more interchangable would be identity = gender identy (or GI is part of an overal identity)

basically, no one gives two cheerios over what you identify as,

people only care once that person starts to assert that their "identity" overides psyical realities.

IE when a man, who identifies as something not a man, wants to compete with women, who identify as woman, in the olympics and claim its not a psycical advantage.

That's compelling to me. In most venues, we don't expect women to be able to physically compete with men. Is that archaic, or is it a valid segregation? Should someone with a male sex be able to compete against women because ((s)he?) feels like ((s)he?) should be a woman?

well it is allowed in the LPGA (womans golf for the non golfers) Bobbi Lancaster

the olympics are a bad example as all the olympians tend to be mutants anyways.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jul/18/science/la-sci-sn-is-gene-doping-coming-to-the-olympics-20120718

They write that “almost every male Olympic sprinter and power athlete ever tested carries the 577R allele” — a version of a gene that enhances performance

So we should have a mutant olympics and a normal olympics

Because if you don't have that gene, you can't compete with those that do.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Iron_Captain wrote:
easysauce wrote:
You are missing the point crystal.

Biology is the only evidence for GENDER (which is still the proper term for it, despite some people wanting its definition to change, this is still an acceptable and in use term for sex)
Wait...
Gender is also a different word for sex? Kirya is confused now... How would one use that in a sentence? I would like to have gender with you?

Gender is not a verb/adverb, as your example of the use of the word would suggest (in your example, sex is the correct term to use, because sex can be a verb/adverb).

Gender is more like "that dog over there is of the male gender" I personally still see the use of the word gender used to denote what bits a person/thing has more predominately in the study of "lesser" animals than humans, as this subtext of "gender doesn't always mean sex or what bits a thing has" seems to be a purely human construct.

**H.B.M.C.**

d-usa wrote:
Part of the problem is that gender doesn't always match up with sex...

Sounds like you're right on the money: Dr. Money.

**daedalus**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Part of the problem is that gender doesn't always match up with sex...

Sounds like you're right on the money: Dr. Money.

That makes me every kind of sad, and makes me hate every kind of people.

I'm completely unsure of how to reconcile the hatred that I feel outside of building a cabin in the middle of nowhere and refusing to tolerate literally anyone, no matter how similar or different they might be to me. I am fairly sure that you've either suggested a link to hyperbole, or a link to genuine madness wrought from truth. And I can't tell which it is.

**easysauce**

Iron_Captain wrote:

So... How would a XXX person look like?

like any other woman, except infertile. I have had the pleasure of dating a girl who was xxx, you would never know if she didnt tell you.

Regardless of the terms used, whatever the terms for it, there are two things people seem to be having difficulty separating:

There are the physical properties that are measurable and definite, genes chromosomes and so on, we have 0 choice in these, and they are defined from birth.

Then there are the social constructs like gender identity, preferring to be called mr mrs, jon or jane, wearing dresses vs pants, and so on that we relate to "gender" but only through mutable, ever changing, social means. One persons feminine social convention is another masculine, so when someone chooses to change their name from jon to jane and wear dresses instead of pants, its not actually going from "male to female" its going from one socially constructed preconception of how a male acts, to a preconception of how a female acts.

Some might argue that surgery and drugs alter the physical traits into something else, but that is only changing your "physical" sex in the manner that implanting whiskers and furry ears would "make" you a cat.

But to argue that these procedures make someone a "real" man or woman, is to say that every trans person PRIOR to these surgeries is less of a man/woman that they identify to be.

In fact trans identifying peoples identities are still JUST as valid without that treatment.

**d-usa**

Consider the source, but still...

http://mobile.rawstory.com/all/2014-08-21-anti-trans-trolling-spree-forces-wikipedia-to-ban-u-s-house-staffers-for-third-time#1

Edit: stupid mobile links...

**Ribon Fox**

How Have I missed this thread. I feel that I should at lest poke my nose in as one of the few TG/TS members.

The best way to know some thing about us is to ask one of us, most will answer your questiond as honistly as we can, but make sure you phrase it in a manor that is not offencive or condersending

**Fafnir**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Part of the problem is that gender doesn't always match up with sex...

Sounds like you're right on the money: Dr. Money.

Money was absolutely awful as both a 'doctor' and a person. The things he did were nothing short of disgusting, even moreso when you consider that it's fairly obvious just how wrong he was.

**Ribon Fox**

Fafnir wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Part of the problem is that gender doesn't always match up with sex...

Sounds like you're right on the money: Dr. Money.

Money was absolutely awful as both a 'doctor' and a person. The things he did were nothing short of disgusting, even moreso when you consider that it's fairly obvious just how wrong he was.

Yor right, from every thing that I have read and heard he was a nasty bit of work, a waist of fleash and bone.

**daedalus**

Ribon Fox wrote:
How Have I missed this thread. I feel that I should at lest poke my nose in as one of the few TG/TS members.

The best way to know some thing about us is to ask one of us, most will answer your questiond as honistly as we can, but make sure you phrase it in a manor that is not offencive or condersending

Okay. You're a guy who dresses as a woman, right? Do you feel like you were actually supposed to be a woman? In what ways does that feeling express itself?

**Ribon Fox**

daedalus wrote:
Ribon Fox wrote:
How Have I missed this thread. I feel that I should at lest poke my nose in as one of the few TG/TS members.

The best way to know some thing about us is to ask one of us, most will answer your questiond as honistly as we can, but make sure you phrase it in a manor that is not offencive or condersending

Okay. You're a guy who dresses as a woman, right? Do you feel like you were actually supposed to be a woman? In what ways does that feeling express itself?

I'm gender fluid for starters, not "a guy who dresses as a woman, right?"; but i'll let that slide due to ignorance of the subject and how to address people politely.

1; Do you feel like you were actually supposed to be a woman?
Most of the time (about 65%) yes, I feel I was born in the wrong body, other times I just worry about paying me rent (about 25%). Would turn down the horrmone treatment? No, I've been there and it does make you wonderfuly centered, most of the internal conflict is gone. Now you could say thats just the results of the chemicals on the brain and you would be right but it is a change that you can not only notice but feel. Would I go under the knife? Noooooooope, I would get to the state that is known as Pre-opp and stay at that level. "Why not go all the way if you have come this far?" I here you say. Well its just me and my messed up head and hearing way to many horror storys about what has happened to so many post-opp girls :(

2: In what ways does that feeling express itself?
You'll find quit afew of us suffer from depression from an early age, for me it was at aged 10 but some get it later. Cupple that with abusive teen years, homelessness, some addiction problems and finaly ending it by taking a steap off the edge of oblivion.
Fortunetly I was rushed to hospital and I lived to tell the tail but quite afew don't. But to ask how does it express itself, is hard to answer but try this:

...Think of a large, flat, black surface of liquid, its viscosaty is like that of treacle, your in the middle of it, nothing is with in sight of you and there is nothing to hold on to. If you struggel the liquid pulls you down but not a ripple is made on the glass like surface. If you painc the liquid will pull you under and then you need help to get back to the surface, if you don't get help you'll keep sinking untill you run out of air and drown on your own daemonds...

Thats the sort of feelings I get every day about who and what I am, I'm open about my self, and if need be I can defend my self via words or with a fist (I an't built for protracted combat

). Sure I get crappy days where all I want to do is just stay under the covers of my bed, cry and eat Ice cream but the rent has to be paied. Other days I'm bounching of the walls super pumped, ready to take on the world and all it can throw at me.

Right now its a case of "Where's the coffee"

**Fafnir**

Ribon Fox wrote:
Would turn down the horrmone treatment? No, I've been there and it does make you wonderfuly centered, most of the internal conflict is gone. Now you could say thats just the results of the chemicals on the brain and you would be right but it is a change that you can not only notice but feel.

Considering that pretty much everything going on in the brain is "just the results of chemicals," I'd say that the importance of such a change can't be overstated.

After all, Robin Williams only died because of some messed up chemicals in his brain, right? The circumstances may be different, but the pain suffered, and the results, are tragically often very similar.

**daedalus**

Ribon Fox wrote:

I'm gender fluid for starters, not "a guy who dresses as a woman, right?"; but i'll let that slide due to ignorance of the subject and how to address people politely.

The fact that this is offensive is curious to me. At some point, you need to be able to explain the situation in common terms, defining the term you identify yourself as with words. I mean, when you're speaking to an audience, with the intent of education, you have to speak to them in ways they understand it, right? I see your picture, and I've read your posts, and I know the definition of situation, but i still don't have an actual simple definition of the... what do I even call it, generically? I don't think I can use "condition", because that's bound to raise ire. I genuinely feel like my words are being held hostage here. That might be a source of some of the hostilities.

1; Do you feel like you were actually supposed to be a woman?
Most of the time (about 65%) yes, I feel I was born in the wrong body, other times I just worry about paying me rent (about 25%). Would turn down the horrmone treatment? No, I've been there and it does make you wonderfuly centered, most of the internal conflict is gone. Now you could say thats just the results of the chemicals on the brain and you would be right but it is a change that you can not only notice but feel. Would I go under the knife? Noooooooope, I would get to the state that is known as Pre-opp and stay at that level. "Why not go all the way if you have come this far?" I here you say. Well its just me and my messed up head and hearing way to many horror storys about what has happened to so many post-opp girls :(

I... wasn't going to say that. I mean really, everyone is pretty fethed up in a lot of ways. Do you continue the hormone treatment?

2: In what ways does that feeling express itself?
You'll find quit afew of us suffer from depression from an early age, for me it was at aged 10 but some get it later. Cupple that with abusive teen years, homelessness, some addiction problems and finaly ending it by taking a steap off the edge of oblivion.
Fortunetly I was rushed to hospital and I lived to tell the tail but quite afew don't. But to ask how does it express itself, is hard to answer but try this:

...Think of a large, flat, black surface of liquid, its viscosaty is like that of treacle, your in the middle of it, nothing is with in sight of you and there is nothing to hold on to. If you struggel the liquid pulls you down but not a ripple is made on the glass like surface. If you painc the liquid will pull you under and then you need help to get back to the surface, if you don't get help you'll keep sinking untill you run out of air and drown on your own daemonds...

That sounds like an explanation of depression.

Thats the sort of feelings I get every day about who and what I am, I'm open about my self, and if need be I can defend my self via words or with a fist (I an't built for protracted combat ). Sure I get crappy days where all I want to do is just stay under the covers of my bed, cry and eat Ice cream but the rent has to be paied. Other days I'm bounching of the walls super pumped, ready to take on the world and all it can throw at me.

Right now its a case of "Where's the coffee"

That also sounds like depression.

**welshhoppo**

I have always known that I was a boy/man. I have no desire to be a woman and most of my activities are generally classed as male. I would have no comprehension of what it feels like to be tapped in the wrong body, although I can't imagine it is very nice at all.

However I am also a very cynical person who believes that you can only make do with what you have been given. So that also affacts my viewpoint.

**Ensis Ferrae**

daedalus wrote:
Ribon Fox wrote:

I'm gender fluid for starters, not "a guy who dresses as a woman, right?"; but i'll let that slide due to ignorance of the subject and how to address people politely.

The fact that this is offensive is curious to me. At some point, you need to be able to explain the situation in common terms, defining the term you identify yourself as with words. I mean, when you're speaking to an audience, with the intent of education, you have to speak to them in ways they understand it, right? I see your picture, and I've read your posts, and I know the definition of situation, but i still don't have an actual simple definition of the... what do I even call it, generically? I don't think I can use "condition", because that's bound to raise ire. I genuinely feel like my words are being held hostage here. That might be a source of some of the hostilities.

I'll put this here, to sort of show the difference....

The former (possibly current, I don't know really) mayor of my grandparents' town also owns the local movie theater... it's a small, one screen joint with a huge screen and all that. Anyhow, he's known around town for his wearing of women's clothing, having long painted nails, long "woman-like" hair etc. Well, one of the local newspapers went out to interview him, and the subject of his "crossdressing" came up. And he basically said that he did it because it brought more attention to him/his theater, and the vast majority of it was good. He also joked that many times, while with his wife people with rib him abit and suggest that his nails were done better than his wife's, etc.

Basically, I think there's a huge difference between what Ribon does, and what Stu, the owner of a theater does. There seems to be a genuine feeling of womanhood in one case, and a bit of "extra publicity" in the other.

**Ribon Fox**

daedalus wrote:
Ribon Fox wrote:

I'm gender fluid for starters, not "a guy who dresses as a woman, right?"; but i'll let that slide due to ignorance of the subject and how to address people politely.

The fact that this is offensive is curious to me. At some point, you need to be able to explain the situation in common terms, defining the term you identify yourself as with words. I mean, when you're speaking to an audience, with the intent of education, you have to speak to them in ways they understand it, right? I see your picture, and I've read your posts, and I know the definition of situation, but i still don't have an actual simple definition of the... what do I even call it, generically? I don't think I can use "condition", because that's bound to raise ire. I genuinely feel like my words are being held hostage here. That might be a source of some of the hostilities.

1; Do you feel like you were actually supposed to be a woman?
Most of the time (about 65%) yes, I feel I was born in the wrong body, other times I just worry about paying me rent (about 25%). Would turn down the horrmone treatment? No, I've been there and it does make you wonderfuly centered, most of the internal conflict is gone. Now you could say thats just the results of the chemicals on the brain and you would be right but it is a change that you can not only notice but feel. Would I go under the knife? Noooooooope, I would get to the state that is known as Pre-opp and stay at that level. "Why not go all the way if you have come this far?" I here you say. Well its just me and my messed up head and hearing way to many horror storys about what has happened to so many post-opp girls :(

I... wasn't going to say that. I mean really, everyone is pretty fethed up in a lot of ways. Do you continue the hormone treatment?

2: In what ways does that feeling express itself?
You'll find quit afew of us suffer from depression from an early age, for me it was at aged 10 but some get it later. Cupple that with abusive teen years, homelessness, some addiction problems and finaly ending it by taking a steap off the edge of oblivion.
Fortunetly I was rushed to hospital and I lived to tell the tail but quite afew don't. But to ask how does it express itself, is hard to answer but try this:

...Think of a large, flat, black surface of liquid, its viscosaty is like that of treacle, your in the middle of it, nothing is with in sight of you and there is nothing to hold on to. If you struggel the liquid pulls you down but not a ripple is made on the glass like surface. If you painc the liquid will pull you under and then you need help to get back to the surface, if you don't get help you'll keep sinking untill you run out of air and drown on your own daemonds...

That sounds like an explanation of depression.

Thats the sort of feelings I get every day about who and what I am, I'm open about my self, and if need be I can defend my self via words or with a fist (I an't built for protracted combat ). Sure I get crappy days where all I want to do is just stay under the covers of my bed, cry and eat Ice cream but the rent has to be paid. Other days I'm bouncing of the walls super pumped, ready to take on the world and all it can throw at me.

Right now its a case of "Where's the coffee"

That also sounds like depression.

I meant no offence its just plan that you haven't interacted with many of the trans folk before, I know some that would get relay snarly with you just for using male adjective at them, I am far more torlarent

Its the old duck thing, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck then the chances are its a horse

I didn't keep it up as the boy friend at the time was the one who got me the moans, when he put me in hospital the moans kind'a stopped with the restraining order I put on him, I do miss the feeling of being at one, and the softer skin it gives you. Now that I'm in a new city I need to find a new doctor that will be understanding to me (yes even in the Medical system you get asshats).

Depression is unfortunately a very good way to describe the feelings we get nigh on most of the time. The feeling of being useless, lonely and hating what you see in the mirror are some times part'n part of what makes some of us tick.

**DukeBadham**

I've noticed some of the same posters from my thread in my sig in here (EDIT: sorry I mean my thread about the link in my sig) (EDIT 2: link to the thread mentioned in earlier edit has been removed from my sig)...with some of the same words (rainbow unicorns...again!? but at least no one has compared transfolk to "kin"folk yet).

A few points, to the posters who say no one gives a crap what you indentify as...the sad thing is many people do, with sometimes violent results.

Also, I never get why you care though, like as has been stated just because a person has a dingdong but feels he is a woman isnt gonna hurt anyone, so why should people care.

Ribon Fox, Good luck with the doctor and all that!

This has been another useless post by me