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Yeah it's out.
Page 4 says that you can use the army in any game. You aren't limited to just games of Warhammer endtimes.
Likewise, the spell lore says anyone can use lore of undeath now.

The obvious build is just picking up a casket and hierotitan along with the black periapt. +D3 dice, +D3 to cast, store up to 2 dice.
But what about another direction?

Necrotech to bubble 6+ regen for constructions, along with a pair of mortis engines.
You could run Necroknights with 3+ armor 4+ ward!
Or ubshati with 4+ regen.
How about Forbidden Knowledge with lore of fire and hierotitan? Spam fireball adding +2D3 to cast every spell after the first.
For those that are not undead, I could see taking lore of undeath on a unit of horrors or two. Being able to make 3 wraiths, 5 hex wraiths, spirit hosts, etc, is pretty good.

Super fast vampire death star? Lore of Undeath for the movement spell, along with book of arkhan for another movement spell. Turn 1, you could be anywhere. Hell throw in a liche priest for the signature spell and another move. 3 magic movement spells is crazy.

All I know is I plan on using Nagash to summon a unit of Blood Knights.


Because reasons.

Personally, I mostly play tournament practise now, to get up to speed after a while out of the game. And if anyone comes up to me with a 50% lord, I will literally add a second war alter to my banishment list, and more peg heroes. Just to make the game as boring as possible.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Personally, I mostly play tournament practise now, to get up to speed after a while out of the game. And if anyone comes up to me with a 50% lord, I will literally add a second war alter to my banishment list, and more peg heroes. Just to make the game as boring as possible.

50% lords and 50% heroes are only legal in the End Times campaign.
IMO, it doesn't matter, spending that many points on characters less effective.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Personally, I mostly play tournament practise now, to get up to speed after a while out of the game. And if anyone comes up to me with a 50% lord, I will literally add a second war alter to my banishment list, and more peg heroes. Just to make the game as boring as possible.

50% lords and 50% heroes are only legal in the End Times campaign.
IMO, it doesn't matter, spending that many points on characters less effective.

Sure. A castled up Empire army with 3 Banishments and various 1+ chaff characters is less effective.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Personally, I mostly play tournament practise now, to get up to speed after a while out of the game. And if anyone comes up to me with a 50% lord, I will literally add a second war alter to my banishment list, and more peg heroes. Just to make the game as boring as possible.

50% lords and 50% heroes are only legal in the End Times campaign.
IMO, it doesn't matter, spending that many points on characters less effective.

Sure. A castled up Empire army with 3 Banishments and various 1+ chaff characters is less effective.

And you're casting 1 at +4, and the rest at no bonus, for 830 points, not counting those 1+ chaff characters (with 2 level 1's to boost the strength of the banishment). That's doesn't leave very much left over to "castle up."
The first 1+ save peg hero is 123 points, the second is 130 points. Those guys aren't cheap.

On the other hand, undead can show up with 2 saved dice, dispel at +5 and make you cast at -1. All the while, dumping out lots of free undead who are worth no points. Turn 2, I crapped out a terrorghiest.
Banishment is awesome against a daemon prince, or another single hard target or elite unit. But if that empire army runs into a summoning army, or a horde army, you're in trouble.
I'm far more worried about high elves with lore of undeath. You could do some awesome modeling of the elf fallen ancestors called back to the battle field (hey, my kids were watching Mulan today).
A castled up army really doesn't like troops getting summoned onto them (run 1 block of banner of the world dragon, and a big block of phoenix guard with a character with MR2).

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Personally, I mostly play tournament practise now, to get up to speed after a while out of the game. And if anyone comes up to me with a 50% lord, I will literally add a second war alter to my banishment list, and more peg heroes. Just to make the game as boring as possible.

50% lords and 50% heroes are only legal in the End Times campaign.
IMO, it doesn't matter, spending that many points on characters less effective.

Sure. A castled up Empire army with 3 Banishments and various 1+ chaff characters is less effective.

And you're casting 1 at +4, and the rest at no bonus, for 830 points, not counting those 1+ chaff characters (with 2 level 1's to boost the strength of the banishment). That's doesn't leave very much left over to "castle up."
The first 1+ save peg hero is 123 points, the second is 130 points. Those guys aren't cheap.

On the other hand, undead can show up with 2 saved dice, dispel at +5 and make you cast at -1. All the while, dumping out lots of free undead who are worth no points. Turn 2, I crapped out a terrorghiest.
Banishment is awesome against a daemon prince, or another single hard target or elite unit. But if that empire army runs into a summoning army, or a horde army, you're in trouble.
I'm far more worried about high elves with lore of undeath. You could do some awesome modeling of the elf fallen ancestors called back to the battle field (hey, my kids were watching Mulan today).
A castled up army really doesn't like troops getting summoned onto them (run 1 block of banner of the world dragon, and a big block of phoenix guard with a character with MR2).

Having run a TK castle gun(bow)line against Nagash, I can safely say that the summoning isn't that great, He got zero summoning spells off in three games.

The summoning is heavily dice dependent, and the thing about the walter is that the banishment is always six diced. Chances are, it'll go off most times.

As for armies with Lore of Undeath, I'm worried about Chaos Dwarves with access to it.

But, out of real armies, Empire with Lore of Undeath just makes the game unfun.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

50% lords and 50% heroes are only legal in the End Times campaign.
IMO, it doesn't matter, spending that many points on characters less effective.

I was under the impression this was not the case and that 50% lords/heroes was for everything? The book certainly makes it appear that way "Along with all the other sections of this book, it is intended for use both with the scenarios presented herein, and in any other games of Warhammer you would like to use it for. "

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Personally, I mostly play tournament practise now, to get up to speed after a while out of the game. And if anyone comes up to me with a 50% lord, I will literally add a second war alter to my banishment list, and more peg heroes. Just to make the game as boring as possible.

50% lords and 50% heroes are only legal in the End Times campaign.
IMO, it doesn't matter, spending that many points on characters less effective.

Sure. A castled up Empire army with 3 Banishments and various 1+ chaff characters is less effective.

And you're casting 1 at +4, and the rest at no bonus, for 830 points, not counting those 1+ chaff characters (with 2 level 1's to boost the strength of the banishment). That's doesn't leave very much left over to "castle up."
The first 1+ save peg hero is 123 points, the second is 130 points. Those guys aren't cheap.

On the other hand, undead can show up with 2 saved dice, dispel at +5 and make you cast at -1. All the while, dumping out lots of free undead who are worth no points. Turn 2, I crapped out a terrorghiest.
Banishment is awesome against a daemon prince, or another single hard target or elite unit. But if that empire army runs into a summoning army, or a horde army, you're in trouble.
I'm far more worried about high elves with lore of undeath. You could do some awesome modeling of the elf fallen ancestors called back to the battle field (hey, my kids were watching Mulan today).
A castled up army really doesn't like troops getting summoned onto them (run 1 block of banner of the world dragon, and a big block of phoenix guard with a character with MR2).

Having run a TK castle gun(bow)line against Nagash, I can safely say that the summoning isn't that great, He got zero summoning spells off in three games.
The summoning is heavily dice dependent, and the thing about the walter is that the banishment is always six diced. Chances are, it'll go off most times.

Undead armies should be showing up with both the Casket of Souls and the Black Periapt. It's a huge advantage in in the magic phase for both offense and defense.
With -1 for you to cast and +5 for me to dispel, I rarely if ever see bound spells go off. You're basically left with hoping for 6's, which is only 25% on 6 dice.

I'm liking the Mortarchs, even if it is obvious which one is the best. Mannfred is just amazing for his points I think, Arkhan and Neferata are good in their own right but just don't compare to Manny. I'll be trying out Nagash and hopefully Neferata soon!

Caederes wrote:
I'm liking the Mortarchs, even if it is obvious which one is the best. Mannfred is just amazing for his points I think, Arkhan and Neferata are good in their own right but just don't compare to Manny. I'll be trying out Nagash and hopefully Neferata soon!

I didn't notice before that all the Mortach monsters have flying.
Hmm, flying with double summoning points might make Arkhan worth it. 16+ to get 300 points of monstrous infantry is pretty good.

What sort of stats and rules do the Mortach's have, if you don't mind me asking?

The most interesting thing is that they use a combined profile. I hope that becomes the new approach as extending your defenses to your mount (in a sense) would make monster lords more viable.

They just had to bring summoning to Fantasy. Couldn't leave it in the Psychic phase could they.

 FenrisianStuart21 wrote:
They just had to bring summoning to Fantasy. Couldn't leave it in the Psychic phase could they.

You know how Vampire Counts work, right?

Yes, considering I actually play Vampire Counts. I should have been more specific. It's one thing to summon units of Zombies, or Skeletons. That's them just rising from the ground, fluffy if you will. Blood Knights? Vargheists?

And giving every faction the Lore of Undeath?

I don't know It just doesn't sit well with me.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Caederes wrote:
I'm liking the Mortarchs, even if it is obvious which one is the best. Mannfred is just amazing for his points I think, Arkhan and Neferata are good in their own right but just don't compare to Manny. I'll be trying out Nagash and hopefully Neferata soon!

I didn't notice before that all the Mortach monsters have flying.
Hmm, flying with double summoning points might make Arkhan worth it. 16+ to get 300 points of monstrous infantry is pretty good.

Yep, all three of them can pretty much just choose where they want to go and get into combat on Turn 2 at the latest. Makes Neferata a bit more appealing than she seems at first glance at least, but still how can anyone go past Mannfred? The guy is so obviously better than the other two I think GW must have been stoned when they wrote their rules out. I'm trying to figure out why Neferata is as weak as she is, in the various books about her she is commonly described as the most powerful Vampire with only Abhorash (and I guess now Mannfred) having a hope of competing against her. Oh well, she's back at least and may get better rules in four years...

Madmatt wrote:What sort of stats and rules do the Mortach's have, if you don't mind me asking?

I won't quote specifics but here's a general idea:
Mannfred is the best wizard of the bunch and the most survivable.
Arkhan is the best summoner/user of the Lore of Undeath, but the weakest in combat.
Neferata is the best in combat but the least survivable and the worst wizard.

Neferata and Arkhan are decent but not great characters, Mannfred on the other hand is just amazing for his points. Unless your opponent has Heroic Killing Blow or several pinpoint accurate cannons that get very lucky on the Multiple Wounds (D6) rolls, Mannfred may as well be impossible to stop. He's not quite as survivable as Nagash but he draws pretty darn close given how much cheaper he is. Mannfred is practically a mini-Nagash and is possibly the best special character in the game at just flat out controlling both players' Magic Phases.

Stumbled across this idea last night.
Night Goblins. Lore of Undead.

The magic mushrooms give you a free D6 casting power with every spell. With the little waaaagh, you have no way to take advantage of that, as the signature spell is a very situational augment. But now that goblins get a signature spell that's useful, having 3 or 4 night goblins cracking out Ryze to bring up some throw-away fanatic sling shots is awesome.
Might even be good enough try out the catchweb shrine.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Stumbled across this idea last night.
Night Goblins. Lore of Undead.

The magic mushrooms give you a free D6 casting power with every spell. With the little waaaagh, you have no way to take advantage of that, as the signature spell is a very situational augment. But now that goblins get a signature spell that's useful, having 3 or 4 night goblins cracking out Ryze to bring up some throw-away fanatic sling shots is awesome.
Might even be good enough try out the catchweb shrine.

I KNEW I bought those undead gobbos from Titan forge for something!!!

Caederes wrote:

I won't quote specifics but here's a general idea:
Mannfred is the best wizard of the bunch and the most survivable.
Arkhan is the best summoner/user of the Lore of Undeath, but the weakest in combat.
Neferata is the best in combat but the least survivable and the worst wizard.

Neferata and Arkhan are decent but not great characters, Mannfred on the other hand is just amazing for his points. Unless your opponent has Heroic Killing Blow or several pinpoint accurate cannons that get very lucky on the Multiple Wounds (D6) rolls, Mannfred may as well be impossible to stop. He's not quite as survivable as Nagash but he draws pretty darn close given how much cheaper he is. Mannfred is practically a mini-Nagash and is possibly the best special character in the game at just flat out controlling both players' Magic Phases.

To agree and sum up what he just said:

Arkhan - Good at summoning, decent wizard
Nefereta - Good in melee, less good at being a wizard
Mannfred - GW loves VC and made him better than both of the previous characters for the same cost.

Because common sense...

I haven't played with them in a lot of games, but so far, Arkhan is doing better than I thought he would.
Arkhan recovers wounds faster then the other two (7 attacks, each wound inflicted recovers a lost wound, up to 4 per phase).

Arkhan does have a hidden buff. He's only Ld9. That means I can take a hero choice Wight King, and make the king the general. This lets the whole army keep marching (near the Wight king) and lets Arkhan do what he really wants to do (fly up a flank and summon tons of models). On the other hand, Manfred is Ld10 which means unless you take a Vampire Lord or Tomb King (big investment), Manfred is your general.
The summon double points is really, really good. 14+ makes 4 wraiths. 16+ makes 6 Varghiests or 3 Morgast Archai.
What's really awesome is casting the Harbinger to summon a 130 points character (like a necromancer with a hex scroll).

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I haven't played with them in a lot of games, but so far, Arkhan is doing better than I thought he would.
Arkhan recovers wounds faster then the other two (7 attacks, each wound inflicted recovers a lost wound, up to 4 per phase).

Arkhan does have a hidden buff. He's only Ld9. That means I can take a hero choice Wight King, and make the king the general. This lets the whole army keep marching (near the Wight king) and lets Arkhan do what he really wants to do (fly up a flank and summon tons of models). On the other hand, Manfred is Ld10 which means unless you take a Vampire Lord or Tomb King (big investment), Manfred is your general.
The summon double points is really, really good. 14+ makes 4 wraiths. 16+ makes 6 Varghiests or 3 Morgast Archai.
What's really awesome is casting the Harbinger to summon a 130 points character (like a necromancer with a hex scroll).

I mean, yeah. My main beef is I just feel the vampires yet again get something better at the same points cost. (If you can't tell, I'm a big Tomb King fan)

Why do I get the feeling everything is now fethed up with Warhammer, anything goes, no structure, all random and with the background torn to shreads for cheap expediency.

With regards to tactics: as you can mix just another anythijng together into a stew combo-chasing is going to be an annoying staple, and everything will either end up shelved or broken outside of self policed friendly games.

Your thoughts on this please because I have been invested in this game and would like to be wrong.

 Orlanth wrote:
Why do I get the feeling everything is now fethed up with Warhammer, anything goes, no structure, all random and with the background torn to shreads for cheap expediency.

With regards to tactics: as you can mix just another anythijng together into a stew combo-chasing is going to be an annoying staple, and everything will either end up shelved or broken outside of self policed friendly games.

Your thoughts on this please because I have been invested in this game and would like to be wrong.

Umm, there's plenty of structure. There still isn't any Unbound, or combining numerous CAD to get around the FoC pretty much.

Yeah, 50% points on a lord or hero, cool. That means less points towards other things to help/support that character, and means that when it dies, you've lost a bigger investment of points.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Why do I get the feeling everything is now fethed up with Warhammer, anything goes, no structure, all random and with the background torn to shreads for cheap expediency.

With regards to tactics: as you can mix just another anythijng together into a stew combo-chasing is going to be an annoying staple, and everything will either end up shelved or broken outside of self policed friendly games.

Your thoughts on this please because I have been invested in this game and would like to be wrong.

Umm, there's plenty of structure. There still isn't any Unbound, or combining numerous CAD to get around the FoC pretty much.

Yeah, 50% points on a lord or hero, cool. That means less points towards other things to help/support that character, and means that when it dies, you've lost a bigger investment of points.

You do know with Nagash you can summon Arkhan t1 at 2k points right?

You can maybe summon Arkhan turn 1
and then you have to split your limited power dice between two dice-hungry wizards

You're better off summoning a Khemric Titan or units that will punch the opponent in the face

 TanKoL wrote:
You can maybe summon Arkhan turn 1
and then you have to split your limited power dice between two dice-hungry wizards

You're better off summoning a Khemric Titan or units that will punch the opponent in the face

This.
I really doubt that Nagash will get through his 3 to 4 summons spells and still have dice left over.
What you need to bring in ASAP is some beat-sticks to take the heat of Nagash. I'm a fan of bringing in the big hitters; 7 blood knights with the flag of blood keep, 11 crypt horrors, 8 Sepulchral Stalkers, 9 ubshati. You want to be spending as many of those summon points as possible. Summoning a unit of up to 600 points and bringing in a 190 point Colossus is a waste.
Bringing in 300 points of infantry? Sounds like 18 Graveguard with greatweapons, full command and banner of the barrows or a unit of 6 wraiths.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 TanKoL wrote:
You can maybe summon Arkhan turn 1
and then you have to split your limited power dice between two dice-hungry wizards

You're better off summoning a Khemric Titan or units that will punch the opponent in the face

This.
I really doubt that Nagash will get through his 3 to 4 summons spells and still have dice left over.
What you need to bring in ASAP is some beat-sticks to take the heat of Nagash. I'm a fan of bringing in the big hitters; 7 blood knights with the flag of blood keep, 11 crypt horrors, 8 Sepulchral Stalkers, 9 ubshati. You want to be spending as many of those summon points as possible. Summoning a unit of up to 600 points and bringing in a 190 point Colossus is a waste.
Bringing in 300 points of infantry? Sounds like 18 Graveguard with greatweapons, full command and banner of the barrows or a unit of 6 wraiths.

-Matt

Not to mention I just realized that this is actually kinda pointless. As wizards generate their spells prior to first turn, even if you summon Arkhan or any of the other casters who don't know preset spell lists, they cant generate spells and can only be used for their innate army buffs and any combat ability they have.

TanKoL wrote:You can maybe summon Arkhan turn 1
and then you have to split your limited power dice between two dice-hungry wizards

You're better off summoning a Khemric Titan or units that will punch the opponent in the face

Maybe turn 1. Definitely turn 2. You only need 2 raise dead counters. Especially if you have a Hierotitan (Why would you not have a Hierotitan) So if you roll a 8+ on WoM, adding in the extra dice from a Casket of Souls, you can throw 2 dice at a Ryze on the Necromancer, throw one to two dice at a Ryze on Nagash (These two spells also just straight up net you 200 points worth of Infantry), and then throw 6 dice at Kadorak in Monster mode. Bam, up to 660 points worth of Monster. It almost might be better to summon Mannfred first then Archon.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 TanKoL wrote:
You can maybe summon Arkhan turn 1
and then you have to split your limited power dice between two dice-hungry wizards

You're better off summoning a Khemric Titan or units that will punch the opponent in the face

This.
I really doubt that Nagash will get through his 3 to 4 summons spells and still have dice left over.
What you need to bring in ASAP is some beat-sticks to take the heat of Nagash. I'm a fan of bringing in the big hitters; 7 blood knights with the flag of blood keep, 11 crypt horrors, 8 Sepulchral Stalkers, 9 ubshati. You want to be spending as many of those summon points as possible. Summoning a unit of up to 600 points and bringing in a 190 point Colossus is a waste.
Bringing in 300 points of infantry? Sounds like 18 Graveguard with greatweapons, full command and banner of the barrows or a unit of 6 wraiths.

-Matt

quickfuze wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 TanKoL wrote:
You can maybe summon Arkhan turn 1
and then you have to split your limited power dice between two dice-hungry wizards

You're better off summoning a Khemric Titan or units that will punch the opponent in the face

This.
I really doubt that Nagash will get through his 3 to 4 summons spells and still have dice left over.
What you need to bring in ASAP is some beat-sticks to take the heat of Nagash. I'm a fan of bringing in the big hitters; 7 blood knights with the flag of blood keep, 11 crypt horrors, 8 Sepulchral Stalkers, 9 ubshati. You want to be spending as many of those summon points as possible. Summoning a unit of up to 600 points and bringing in a 190 point Colossus is a waste.
Bringing in 300 points of infantry? Sounds like 18 Graveguard with greatweapons, full command and banner of the barrows or a unit of 6 wraiths.

-Matt

Not to mention I just realized that this is actually kinda pointless. As wizards generate their spells prior to first turn, even if you summon Arkhan or any of the other casters who don't know preset spell lists, they cant generate spells and can only be used for their innate army buffs and any combat ability they have.

Do we even have a precedent for summoning Wizards? I'd wait for the FAQ on that one.

 TheMind wrote:

TanKoL wrote:You can maybe summon Arkhan turn 1
and then you have to split your limited power dice between two dice-hungry wizards

You're better off summoning a Khemric Titan or units that will punch the opponent in the face

Maybe turn 1. Definitely turn 2. You only need 2 raise dead counters. Especially if you have a Hierotitan (Why would you not have a Hierotitan) So if you roll a 8+ on WoM, adding in the extra dice from a Casket of Souls, you can throw 2 dice at a Ryze on the Necromancer, throw one to two dice at a Ryze on Nagash (These two spells also just straight up net you 200 points worth of Infantry), and then throw 6 dice at Kadorak in Monster mode. Bam, up to 660 points worth of Monster. It almost might be better to summon Mannfred first then Archon.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 TanKoL wrote:
You can maybe summon Arkhan turn 1
and then you have to split your limited power dice between two dice-hungry wizards

You're better off summoning a Khemric Titan or units that will punch the opponent in the face

This.
I really doubt that Nagash will get through his 3 to 4 summons spells and still have dice left over.
What you need to bring in ASAP is some beat-sticks to take the heat of Nagash. I'm a fan of bringing in the big hitters; 7 blood knights with the flag of blood keep, 11 crypt horrors, 8 Sepulchral Stalkers, 9 ubshati. You want to be spending as many of those summon points as possible. Summoning a unit of up to 600 points and bringing in a 190 point Colossus is a waste.
Bringing in 300 points of infantry? Sounds like 18 Graveguard with greatweapons, full command and banner of the barrows or a unit of 6 wraiths.

-Matt

quickfuze wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 TanKoL wrote:
You can maybe summon Arkhan turn 1
and then you have to split your limited power dice between two dice-hungry wizards

You're better off summoning a Khemric Titan or units that will punch the opponent in the face

This.
I really doubt that Nagash will get through his 3 to 4 summons spells and still have dice left over.
What you need to bring in ASAP is some beat-sticks to take the heat of Nagash. I'm a fan of bringing in the big hitters; 7 blood knights with the flag of blood keep, 11 crypt horrors, 8 Sepulchral Stalkers, 9 ubshati. You want to be spending as many of those summon points as possible. Summoning a unit of up to 600 points and bringing in a 190 point Colossus is a waste.
Bringing in 300 points of infantry? Sounds like 18 Graveguard with greatweapons, full command and banner of the barrows or a unit of 6 wraiths.

-Matt

Not to mention I just realized that this is actually kinda pointless. As wizards generate their spells prior to first turn, even if you summon Arkhan or any of the other casters who don't know preset spell lists, they cant generate spells and can only be used for their innate army buffs and any combat ability they have.

Do we even have a precedent for summoning Wizards? I'd wait for the FAQ on that one.

result 11 on the Reign of Chaos. Says generate spell when placed, however it skips it for 12 on new horror unit. most events say the fact that 11 allows it means 12 allows it as well.