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yes, the "genetic evolution" is making hormagaunts skin tougher, or, wetter, so as to resist flame weapons better. or giving genestealers acid on there scythes to cut through power armor easier. Or some form of this.

 raiden wrote:
yes, the "genetic evolution" is making hormagaunts skin tougher, or, wetter, so as to resist flame weapons better. or giving genestealers acid on there scythes to cut through power armor easier. Or some form of this.

Not really, because the nids can not waste a lot of bio-resources on evolution. if you look at the nid tendril that attacked the tau, it starved itself to evolve. Same thing will happen at almost any battle that the nids turn to evolution to win their fights. Besides, no matter what they do, orks themselves will grow, to combat the nids evolution. A gaunt now has a tougher shell, ork boys will then start to hit them harder, yes there will be more casualties on the ork side initially but in the long run, then entire ork force will grow stronger from this, thus making them harder to kill, and harder hitters, thus the nids have to pour in more bio resources to either give their troops more muscle, or give them tougher skin. Which will make the orks grow bigger, and hit harder.

Honestly it becomes a slow downhill battle for the nids if they lose one major battle. Nids need to win big victories at a constant rate to keep evolving, if not then they will kill themselves. Thus evolutionary tactics are out of the battle.

Nid's would only win if they could assimilate the Orks ability to grow via combat. If they can get that, then eventually the average Nob will be able to beat the snot out of a Carnifex.

but thats assuming the Orks survive the battle, when you loose a battle to the Nids dont they eat any survivors?

Tyranids.

They're smarter than Orks are, but also as numerous. Battles between the two generally go as a bloody stalemate for a period of time until the Hive Mind recognizes Ork nature and uses it against them, securing the critical victory.

I.E. Skarfang.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Tyranids.

They're smarter than Orks are, but also as numerous. Battles between the two generally go as a bloody stalemate for a period of time until the Hive Mind recognizes Ork nature and uses it against them, securing the critical victory.

I.E. Skarfang.

Either that or the Tyranids figure out an airborne spore of their own that targets and eliminates Ork spores.

They already release all sorts of nastiness into the atmosphere (to the point where late on in a Tyranid invasion if a human doesn't have breathing gear his lungs will be liquid within hours of exposure), so it's not too much of a stretch. This would deny the Orks the only thing that lets them compete with the Tyranids, and lead to their extinction.

Face it, with a foe like the Orks that's about the only hope you have of actually winning outright. Proper scorched earth "not even one cell survives" tactics. The Necrons could do a good job of this too if left to their own devices, as they are more than capable of sterilizing a world in full.

If Tyranids scorch the earth, they'd not have much less to eat later, thus - a wasteful battle.

More orks arrive at OCtarius than are "born" there. Orks are streaming into the battlezone by the millions. The genetic stalemate on the ground is exactly that.

As far as Tyranids being smarter, where does anyone get that impression? They are instinct based with a Hivemind that is brilliant on the genetic level, but hasn't shown itself to be terribly effective in battles where the opposition has comparable or even fewer numbers. The hivefleets that have been defeated so far vastly outnumbered the defenders.

 koooaei wrote:
If Tyranids scorch the earth, they'd not have much less to eat later, thus - a wasteful battle.

The Tyranids already do a scorched earth policy on every planet they visit. When the Tyranids leave a planet, all that remains is a small barren rock, devoid of everything, including atmosphere. Here's a good little quote.

 morganfreeman wrote:
I mean Tyranids leave -nothing- behind. No precious metals, no water, no atmosphere, no dirt, no nothing. There's literally just rock; they take everything else.

Orks are hardy, but I'm skeptical of their ability to ekk out a living on literally rock alone. At absolute best they'd be able to salvage and re-use what they came to the planet with, but the fact that they have nothing on the planet to use means that they'd eventually just be stuck there bashing eachothers heads in whilst running around butt naked.

Basically they wouldn't be common Orkish low tech, they'd be no tech. Not even rock weapons; just rocks.

 PhillyT wrote:
More orks arrive at OCtarius than are "born" there. Orks are streaming into the battlezone by the millions. The genetic stalemate on the ground is exactly that.

As far as Tyranids being smarter, where does anyone get that impression? They are instinct based with a Hivemind that is brilliant on the genetic level, but hasn't shown itself to be terribly effective in battles where the opposition has comparable or even fewer numbers. The hivefleets that have been defeated so far vastly outnumbered the defenders.

Think of the stalemate of the setting. You really think we are allowed to truly win? #TyranidVictories=GrandSweepingChangesAndPlotProgression. Tyranid victory at Macragge? No more Ultramarines and loss of most used space marine model line and end of GW, Way to go. Tyranid victory in the T'au Septs? End of the Tau Empire. Tyranid victory at Octarius after the stalemate? End of existence as Tyranids officially have beaten the Orks in a resounding route. We aren't allowed to win. Tyranid players don't play for grand stories of victory and massacres. We play to watch the galaxy get eaten.

Xyptc wrote:The Valedor novel suggests that this may actually be (more or less) the reason behind the vanguard Tyranid fleets we have at the moment. They arrive in the galaxy, consume worlds and document resistance. They then link up, combine genetic resources and build a crop of Tyranids specifically designed using the genetics of the opposition to beat the enemy at their own game.

Quite what Tyranids inspired by Eldar, Ork and human genetics taken to eleven would look like... I have no idea :p

Outdated fluff, but the 3rd and 4th edition codices had assumptions that the Zoanthrope was grown from Eldar genes, the Biovore from Ork genes and the Tyrant Guard from Space Marine genes. Humans have nothing special to give them really, they're just gruel for the masses. The idea was they would grow a bioform from each race they conquered to do one special thing. Eldar - be hugely psychic. Space Marines - be tough fethers and guard our leaders. Orks... be artillery? They kind of just threw that one in, I think. Though the 4th edition Biovore definitely had the physiolog of an Ork.

Then Cruddace went and gak all over it, giving Tyranids everything they have now way back at Tyran, and rarely creating new bioforms since. If they needed a new bioform, it was retconned all the way to Tyran or was a one off super bug.

feth I hate what Cruddace did to the fluff.

 -Loki- wrote:
Then Cruddace went and gak all over it, giving Tyranids everything they have now way back at Tyran, and rarely creating new bioforms since. If they needed a new bioform, it was retconned all the way to Tyran or was a one off super bug.

feth I hate what Cruddace did to the fluff.

I don't recall the newer codices firmly stating that the Zoanthrope, Biovore, or Tyrant Guard originated from before Tyran's doom. So hopefully, that bit of fluff should still be considered firmly accurate.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If Tyranids scorch the earth, they'd not have much less to eat later, thus - a wasteful battle.

The Tyranids already do a scorched earth policy on every planet they visit. When the Tyranids leave a planet, all that remains is a small barren rock, devoid of everything, including atmosphere.

That happens after they feed. Not before. In this case it was assumed that Tyranids 'scorch the earth' as a means of battle without gaining anything out of it.

 PhillyT wrote:
As far as Tyranids being smarter, where does anyone get that impression? They are instinct based with a Hivemind that is brilliant on the genetic level, but hasn't shown itself to be terribly effective in battles where the opposition has comparable or even fewer numbers. The hivefleets that have been defeated so far vastly outnumbered the defenders.

Yeah, never seen the hive mind as some kind of peerless tactician myself.

It has like two tricks, and either of those are unique.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
If Tyranids scorch the earth, they'd not have much less to eat later, thus - a wasteful battle.

The Tyranids already do a scorched earth policy on every planet they visit. When the Tyranids leave a planet, all that remains is a small barren rock, devoid of everything, including atmosphere. Here's a good little quote.

 morganfreeman wrote:
I mean Tyranids leave -nothing- behind. No precious metals, no water, no atmosphere, no dirt, no nothing. There's literally just rock; they take everything else.

Orks are hardy, but I'm skeptical of their ability to ekk out a living on literally rock alone. At absolute best they'd be able to salvage and re-use what they came to the planet with, but the fact that they have nothing on the planet to use means that they'd eventually just be stuck there bashing eachothers heads in whilst running around butt naked.

Basically they wouldn't be common Orkish low tech, they'd be no tech. Not even rock weapons; just rocks.

 PhillyT wrote:
More orks arrive at OCtarius than are "born" there. Orks are streaming into the battlezone by the millions. The genetic stalemate on the ground is exactly that.

As far as Tyranids being smarter, where does anyone get that impression? They are instinct based with a Hivemind that is brilliant on the genetic level, but hasn't shown itself to be terribly effective in battles where the opposition has comparable or even fewer numbers. The hivefleets that have been defeated so far vastly outnumbered the defenders.

Think of the stalemate of the setting. You really think we are allowed to truly win? #TyranidVictories=GrandSweepingChangesAndPlotProgression. Tyranid victory at Macragge? No more Ultramarines and loss of most used space marine model line and end of GW, Way to go. Tyranid victory in the T'au Septs? End of the Tau Empire. Tyranid victory at Octarius after the stalemate? End of existence as Tyranids officially have beaten the Orks in a resounding route. We aren't allowed to win. Tyranid players don't play for grand stories of victory and massacres. We play to watch the galaxy get eaten.

How is that any different from any other "evil" race? This isn't a woe is me issue for Tyranids. But within the setting, you can still discuss the how and why. CLaiming it is a storyline issue isn't fair or accurate, nor is it all that useful. Most evil races have their "but wait, if they all get their act together the Galaxy burns/gets eaten!"

It is like the lazy evolution concept. There are only so many ways you can evolve a set of claws or a bio gun. The idea that there are endless opportunities to create new ways to kill things ignores basic laws of biology. Claws are claws. But the evolutionary conceit explains the different biomorphs available to the tyranids. The other portions of the fluff about evoultionary processes isn't really much other than the same hyperbolic fluff that says orks have potentially no limit to their size.

 PhillyT wrote:
It is like the lazy evolution concept. There are only so many ways you can evolve a set of claws or a bio gun. The idea that there are endless opportunities to create new ways to kill things ignores basic laws of biology. Claws are claws. But the evolutionary conceit explains the different biomorphs available to the tyranids. The other portions of the fluff about evoultionary processes isn't really much other than the same hyperbolic fluff that says orks have potentially no limit to their size.

I have always imagined Tyranid "evolution" on the battlefield to simply mean the fine tuning of the organisms deployed in successive waves to better suit the battlefield at hand. A good example in the fluff itself would be the Hierodule Bio-titan. Initially it was deployed as a line-breaker unit, a sort of extreme Carnifex to plough through the heaviest of enemy fortifications. As Kraken rampaged around, the Imperium started to deploy their own Titans and super-tanks, and the melee-focused Hierodules were often brought down before they could get into combat. In response, the Hive Mind started to develop long-ranged versions of the Hierodule that could engage enemy super-heavies at range. The Biovore and Exocrine follow this trend as well; facing an enemy gunline means bringing your own gunline to pound it from range (while you find ways to circumvent it if possible).

Going back to Octarius and the Orks, what are the possible options for the Tyranids?

Spore-based reproduction is key for Orks, so finding a way to prevent that is a good start. Venomthropes with necrotising spore clouds that seek and kill Ork spores? That could be worked into any Tyranid with the toxic vents on its back. Tyranid toxins on claws and inside bio-weapons could be developed with the same sort of thing as well.

Orks come on in great masses, but often break and fall apart if their leaders are killed in front of them. Solution? Hard melee monsters like the Dimachaeron that can take the Orks in melee, single out a leader, kill him violently and then decimate the survivors.



All this really translates into is looking at your enemy, understanding said enemy and bringing the right tools to the field. It's no different than a squad of Sternguard bringing the right sort of ammo.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:


Think of the stalemate of the setting. You really think we are allowed to truly win?

You can say that about everyone. Everyone either get's victories and is then defeated (Tyranids, sometimes Orks), get victories and then don't do much (Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Imperium) or get just don't get victories (Orks and Eldar quite a bit).

Tyranid victory at Octarius after the stalemate? End of existence as Tyranids officially have beaten the Orks in a resounding route. We aren't allowed to win.

Octarius is only one Ork empire. It's defeat does not mean that the Tyranids would win.

 PhillyT wrote:
More orks arrive at OCtarius than are "born" there. Orks are streaming into the battlezone by the millions. The genetic stalemate on the ground is exactly that.

As far as Tyranids being smarter, where does anyone get that impression? They are instinct based with a Hivemind that is brilliant on the genetic level, but hasn't shown itself to be terribly effective in battles where the opposition has comparable or even fewer numbers. The hivefleets that have been defeated so far vastly outnumbered the defenders.

Didn't some space marine chapter challenge the Swarmlord to a duel once, then blow it up with a bunch of terminators and tanks lying in ambush?

 Wyzilla wrote:
Didn't some space marine chapter challenge the Swarmlord to a duel once, then blow it up with a bunch of terminators and tanks lying in ambush?

The only match that has ever included the swarmlord was between Calgar and the Swarmlord after Calgar healed up and headed back to Macragge. I believe the end result was that he did defeat it.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
More orks arrive at OCtarius than are "born" there. Orks are streaming into the battlezone by the millions. The genetic stalemate on the ground is exactly that.

As far as Tyranids being smarter, where does anyone get that impression? They are instinct based with a Hivemind that is brilliant on the genetic level, but hasn't shown itself to be terribly effective in battles where the opposition has comparable or even fewer numbers. The hivefleets that have been defeated so far vastly outnumbered the defenders.

Didn't some space marine chapter challenge the Swarmlord to a duel once, then blow it up with a bunch of terminators and tanks lying in ambush?

Some tyrants have shown an ability to execute at a limited capacity, but they aren't terribly sophisticated with their execution on the battle field. It is more of a paper rock scissor. They also require a serious numerical advantage to win. They can't/Don't have that on Octarius.

As far as orks requiring spores to repopulate, I think the rate of reproduction is so slow that it isn't really the manner by which they are replenishing on Octarius. It is a slow process. Octarius is being replenished by the millions of orks rushing to the planet for a good fight.

I can't recall where it was stated, but the rate or production from spore to ork isn't a fast process. It would require a pretty stable, untouched area for the orks to mature, be "educated" and move into the class of boyz. If I recall, Octarius doesn't really afford much of an opportunity for that, nor are the spores really able to take hold because they are fighting tyranid spores.

Another thing to keep in mind, as tyranids try to kill ork spores, the ork spores get bigger/better as they "fight" which is the natural progression of orks. It isn't as though tyranids are the only ones who change through the conflict. Nobz are being produced on Octarius at an absurd rate.

 PhillyT wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 PhillyT wrote:
More orks arrive at OCtarius than are "born" there. Orks are streaming into the battlezone by the millions. The genetic stalemate on the ground is exactly that.

As far as Tyranids being smarter, where does anyone get that impression? They are instinct based with a Hivemind that is brilliant on the genetic level, but hasn't shown itself to be terribly effective in battles where the opposition has comparable or even fewer numbers. The hivefleets that have been defeated so far vastly outnumbered the defenders.

Didn't some space marine chapter challenge the Swarmlord to a duel once, then blow it up with a bunch of terminators and tanks lying in ambush?

Some tyrants have shown an ability to execute at a limited capacity, but they aren't terribly sophisticated with their execution on the battle field. It is more of a paper rock scissor. They also require a serious numerical advantage to win. They can't/Don't have that on Octarius.

As far as orks requiring spores to repopulate, I think the rate of reproduction is so slow that it isn't really the manner by which they are replenishing on Octarius. It is a slow process. Octarius is being replenished by the millions of orks rushing to the planet for a good fight.

I can't recall where it was stated, but the rate or production from spore to ork isn't a fast process. It would require a pretty stable, untouched area for the orks to mature, be "educated" and move into the class of boyz. If I recall, Octarius doesn't really afford much of an opportunity for that, nor are the spores really able to take hold because they are fighting tyranid spores.

Another thing to keep in mind, as tyranids try to kill ork spores, the ork spores get bigger/better as they "fight" which is the natural progression of orks. It isn't as though tyranids are the only ones who change through the conflict. Nobz are being produced on Octarius at an absurd rate.

Actually the Book Shadow Captain of the Overfiend trilogy has the Ravenguard fighting orks that are from Octavius. Their Tanks are tougher and almost unstoppable in the book, and the Orks are also bigger and tougher. There is even a part where Ork Boys are seen being able to almost keep up with Bikers. Although they do say it might be because of something on the plant, it's not clear and I think it's just the orks that have been fighting against tyranids

Exactly. This idea that Tyranids are out evolving ignores the fact that all of the fluff for the conflict gives as many examples of orks becoming super powered by it as Tyranids become super nasty.

The fluff also seems to implies that the huge quantities of biomass from all the orks is at least as big a deal as any evolutionary advantage tyranids would gain from the experience.

Many an IG commander has made the fatal mistake of thinking that Orks being simple minded is the same thing ad them being stupid. Orks are far from stupid, there are many examples of their tactical flexability and inginuity taking enemy commanders by surprise. Its not that Orks don't or are incapable of things like pincer movements, but why bother when a full frontal attack usually works and is hella fun to boot.

Just think about what happens if the Orks win that conflict...
How large can Orks get? Do they grow infinitely? Otherwise we might get Orks the size of Titans coming out of Octavius 0_0

The largest ork WH40K fluff knows was a size of a deff dread and almost murderized Emps + Horus. Only Horus's desperate: "NO, DON'T KILL MY DADDY" move and Emperror's surprise strike managed to stop him.

Orks can get really big and nasty but they're limited to their surroundings. An ork can get as big as he needs to be to kill the largest things around. But not bigger. At least the growth is hugely diminished by that time.

In a new ork book there's some reference to whyrmkillaz who are snakebites that love fighting tyranids.

Btw, do you know that the largest Earth's organism is a mushroom. It's root system covers almost 900 akres - 5.6 km wide.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/oregons-monster-mushroom-is-worlds-biggest-living-thing-710278.html

I'm glad our mushrooms ain't too orky. Yet.

I think Tyranids win. They actually seem like the perfect counter to Orks, since they strip worlds of all organic matter and atmosphere. I doubt spores would survive, and if they did the planet would be inhospitable to life.

Orks do hordes and fighting pretty well, but Tyranids are like 'every inch of your planet covered in razor sharp scythes and flailing hooks'. I think Orks would just get chopped up. They probably don't even have fun.

Draw unless GW bothers to advance the fluff.

 Smacks wrote:
I think Tyranids win. They actually seem like the perfect counter to Orks, since they strip worlds of all organic matter and atmosphere. I doubt spores would survive, and if they did the planet would be inhospitable to life.

Orks do hordes and fighting pretty well, but Tyranids are like 'every inch of your planet covered in razor sharp scythes and flailing hooks'. I think Orks would just get chopped up. They probably don't even have fun.

I think it is the opposite. Even a scrubbed dead world will be terra formed by ork spores. As the hive moves through, orks will replenish the dead worlds, making them ork worlds. Granted, the tyranids could then turn around and re consume the galaxy, but it would sort of be a perpetual motion machine. And that is of course assuming that tyranids could win in the first place.

I think the addition of Ghaz indicates the balance will switch.

Goes like this:

Spores cause fungus to grow, eventually with enough fungus, Squigs begin to grow from the spores instead to eat the mushrooms and provide a food source for later Orkoids, eventually with enough squigs, snotlings begin to grow to herd the squigs, and then with enough snotlings, grots begin to grow now that there's the infrastructure needed to support them, and they create the infrastructure needed for the last portion of hte Orkoid life cycle, the Orks, whom become dominant as time goes on, but still rely on (and produce spores for) the other kinds of Orkoids.

Orks, the green Nids. They are their own food chain.

 Frazzled wrote:

Goes like this:

Spores cause fungus to grow, eventually with enough fungus, Squigs begin to grow from the spores instead to eat the mushrooms and provide a food source for later Orkoids, eventually with enough squigs, snotlings begin to grow to herd the squigs, and then with enough snotlings, grots begin to grow now that there's the infrastructure needed to support them, and they create the infrastructure needed for the last portion of hte Orkoid life cycle, the Orks, whom become dominant as time goes on, but still rely on (and produce spores for) the other kinds of Orkoids.

Orks, the green Nids. They are their own food chain.

They may be able to repopulate a world to a degree, but they will be worse than feral. They cannot reseed a world with the raw materials of industry. At which case, the orks auto-lose from lack of materials.

Except who says the orks are using the octavius sector to repopulate?

what if they conquer a nearby planet and use that to get more and more orks to join the fight as a steady stream of reinforcements? They already have millions of orks joining the fight.

and you talk like Tyranids only have physical stuff to outmatch. Orks have strange and random tech that allows the construction of almost anything they can think of, wether it be a bigger gun or a crazy giant mega dread train thing. even if they run out of supplies they can just bring said super weapons to planets that never saw the things and conquer to get more supplies