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Exergy wrote:Is there something wrong with having a living Ferrus Mannis,

I hate to disappoint you, but Ferrus is VERY much alive, thank you.

THAT is why we shouldn't clone him.

(OOC: See signature, it should explain it. )

Another big obstacle for Chaos Lords cloning Primarchs is motivation. Why the heck would they want to create someone who will likely just end up taking their role as leader, possibly killing them in the process?

Fabulous Bile was attempting to clone Horus when Abbadon flipped out and destroyed the body and clones, so it is possible. Later one of the Ultramarine Commanders is cloned by Honsu.

I would assume that the AdMech could perform such an operation, but it would be fraught with peril. What if the new Primarch turned renegade? What if he decided as the last primarch that he deserved to rule the imperium?

These are not small problems.

In addition, the Emperor could have resumed the Primarch Experiment but did not, for "lack of resources" and "difficulty". Yet Bile didn't seem to lack for either even after Horus's forces were forced to flee to the eye.

So perhaps the difficulty doesn't lie within the cloning process at all, but in the shielding of the clones from interference by the Warp. Something that probably is not possible in the current Imperium.

It says in the HH novel where Corax cloned his legion that the emperors lab where he made the primarchs with all the info n tech was perfectly intact.

After he finished trying to clone his legion it was still perfectly intact.

I dont think the bombing would have reached that far into the palace - unless they write that in eventually.

Its probably possible to do so, the problem is imperial ideology would be against it and if they were to turn renegade there is no emperor or loyal primarchs left to fight/kill them.

There is The Lion but he his hiding deep down his rock.

ALso the first time they made 20 primarchs it was easy for choas to steal them even when emperor was at full health. now he is wounded and dying....

 sumi808 wrote:
It says in the HH novel where Corax cloned his legion that the emperors lab where he made the primarchs with all the info n tech was perfectly intact.

After he finished trying to clone his legion it was still perfectly intact.

I dont think the bombing would have reached that far into the palace - unless they write that in eventually.

Its probably possible to do so, the problem is imperial ideology would be against it and if they were to turn renegade there is no emperor or loyal primarchs left to fight/kill them.

There is The Lion but he his hiding deep down his rock.

ALso the first time they made 20 primarchs it was easy for choas to steal them even when emperor was at full health. now he is wounded and dying....

The First Heretic shows that the cause of the scattering is

Durandal wrote:
I would assume that the AdMech could perform such an operation, but it would be fraught with peril. What if the new Primarch turned renegade? What if he decided as the last primarch that he deserved to rule the imperium? These are not small problems.

Aye, I'd imagine there are many really good reasons not to try as long as everything works without a Primarch. What if your new clone Primarch decides to gather the Space Marine Legions again? Depose the High Lords and the Inquisition because he's closer to the Emperor's Will than them? Disband the Ecclesiarchy since the Emperor didn't want to be worshipped?

Ofc, assuming you just make a clone body without trying to get the original soul back the problems might be less. But still huge ones. Even ordinary marines at times have difficulties understanding why they're supposed to protect and sometimes obey baseline humans, filthy lesser beings. A super-marine with the power of a demigod could go really bad.

 Psienesis wrote:
Fulgrim doesn't know jack about the science of genetics. He's a warrior, not a doctor. The only one on that team that would have a chance of doing it is Fabius, but whether or not he would is an entirely different matter.

I think Fabulous Bill would do it, just to get his hands on some pure primarch DNA


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 fallinq wrote:


Chaos on the other hand doesn't care, but for them it's a problem of skill. Creating a being like the Emperor is basically Fabius Bile's life's work. But he hasn't succeeded yet, and he's by far the most skilled geneticist alive today, except perhaps for the Haemonculi. He tried to clone Horus, but the clone was killed by Abaddon, and he seems to have regarded it as failure. The clone was probably defective. He has successfully cloned Space Marines, and is the only one who has successfully done so, however, his process seems to have "kinks" that saner individuals would consider unsuitable. Bile's "new men" seem to all be sociopathic, more than a bit crazy, and prone to genetic meltdowns. And cloning a Primarch is implied to be much harder then cloning normal Astartes. Perhaps their DNA is more complex, so there's more chance for defects to get into the code during the cloning process, producing nothing more than a mindless monstrosity or big pile of goo. Bile has come the closest but hasn't succeeded, and no other servant of Chaos is nearly is skilled as he is in that field.

I am sure there are kinks, it took the emperor to make the primarchs, they were very different from humans or space marines. They were fully engineered beings. But they did grow from a seed into a huge man like thing. Seems something that would be worth trying again.

My point is if he tried with Horus, and failed becasue Abaddon, why not try again with a different primarch(one that wasnt psykically obliterated) and preferably far from Abbaddon(I hear he is kind of stuck on Cadia at the moment)

As to Fabius teaching the Haemonculi, it seems at best to be a two way street. They taught him a few things too, and i would argue that the heamonculi are still the foremost experts at cloning.

They can clone a new body (soul, personality, skills etc restored and all) from a random blown off body part.

Hell, Urien has died and come back so many times that it's become his HOBBY, ffs

Fabius's best bet would be to get a research grant from Urien, and have them both work on the project. Still wouldn't work on Horus (beyond the physical as the soul went kablooie), but it would probably work on the others.

 Ascalam wrote:
As to Fabius teaching the Haemonculi, it seems at best to be a two way street. They taught him a few things too, and i would argue that the heamonculi are still the foremost experts at cloning.

They can clone a new body (soul, personality, skills etc restored and all) from a random blown off body part.

Hell, Urien has died and come back so many times that it's become his HOBBY, ffs

Fabius's best bet would be to get a research grant from Urien, and have them both work on the project. Still wouldn't work on Horus (beyond the physical as the soul went kablooie), but it would probably work on the others.

so where is Dorn's Hand? Sounds like something worth raiding

There's plenty of Primarch clones running around as it is. They're called Space Marines though.

Well...

I vaguely recall cloning to be "heresy" and mostly forbidden, although the dark eldar know how to do it.

As technology is so lost most people think it is magic in the imperium even with the astartes it is unlikely many know, if any at all, how to clone something.

Even if they dead its certainly heresy.

Cloning an embodiment of the emporer such as a primarch is probably a heresy that results in a punishment worse then death.

There are several reasons why neither side would attempt it.

For Chaos: The Emperor created the Primarchs for the "Greater Good" of mankind. Chaos is not about one greater goal, it is about fulfilling selfish desires. Sure a big powerful Primarch would help win the war against the Imperium but it would make an unbeatable future rival. In Void Stalker Variel says something to Talos along the lines of "I do not envy you, living in the shadows of your father" as in, most Chaos marines love the free for all, that is the 41st Millennium,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are several reasons why neither side would attempt it.

For Chaos: The Emperor created the Primarchs for the "Greater Good" of mankind. Chaos is not about one greater goal, it is about fulfilling selfish desires. Sure a big powerful Primarch would help win the war against the Imperium but it would make an unbeatable future rival. In Void Stalker Variel says something to Talos along the lines of "I do not envy you, living in the shadows of your father" as in, most Chaos marines love the free for all, that is the 41st Millennium,

Fabius has already "successfully" cloned primarchs. In body anyway.

His current plan is to clone the emperor after he stole some of the blood of sanguinius from the blood angels. Something about that being the last he needed for his research to continue.

There is a novel about it from BL.

The Emperor comes back and appoints Fabius to recreate the Legions, ah that would be great.