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Also, I actually would think that good human judgment would be better than the "coin flip" system. But it's clear that a lot of people are worried that they can't trust their judgment. Which is fine. So it's an alternative.

I think that we have to move away from the elitism in games. The smart phone is the most popular console for video games. Why someone playing Titanfall more worthy of the title 'gamer' than someone playing candy crush? The Wii made so much money because it aimed at making games accessible to a wide range of people. And they all should be considered gamers.

I am glad that games have made progress over time. I was glad that in Gears of War 3 that Anya picked up a gun and played the same as everyone else. It was definitely a step forward.

 illuknisaa wrote:
Melissa you have the exact same choises as everybody else.

That's like telling a gay man "you have the same choices on who to marry as everyone else, why do you demand equal rights? So either marry a woman or don't marry at all."

 illuknisaa wrote:
The reason why women don't get attention from publishers is because women make gakky mobile games.

Not true at all-- plenty are developing games for the PC as well, and a few even have managed to get games on places like XBox Live. Furthermore, mobile games are the easiest market for indie devs to enter in to to begin with, so it shouldn't be a surprise that new developers, with limited funds and little support from big name companies, would enter in to that market first. It's just good business sense.

 illuknisaa wrote:
Nobody is interested in gakky mobile games.

While I personally am not interested in them, I would like to point out that mobile games make up two thirds of all phone application revenue. Last year, the worldwide gaming market netted $93 billion US dollars in profit; of that, $22 billion was made in mobile games, which is by far the fastest growing segment of games. By the standard definition of supply and demand, this indicates that there is a massive demand for mobile games.

My only problem with women in videogames is how disgustingly the male half of the audience react to women asking for more representation in games.

 Lynata wrote:
It makes me think how much different movies and games would be if the writers would roll dice for such things, instead of defaulting to the same archetype again and again.

As I mentioned above, I am pretty sure that is how SMBC is working. Or close enough. The main result is that you stop caring about the gender or race of the characters, in my experience. Because it just does not give you any kind of preconceptions on who they are.

Also, I actually would think that good human judgment would be better than the "coin flip" system. But it's clear that a lot of people are worried that they can't trust their judgment. Which is fine. So it's an alternative.

I mean, there are different philosophies to approaching characters. I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say 1 way is the right way, but to me, part of a character is getting into that character's head. When I write female characters, it is a struggle because I'm a man not a woman but in that respect I'd rather try and fail than not try at all. Who a character is (as well as what they are) is an important part of their person. I doubt I'd be able to write a character and then pick their sex at random afterwards. I've certainly at times flipped a character's sex because it dawned on me the story and character would function better that way, but I usually sit down and say "Bob is *writes out character premise*"

If this results in a story that contains no women, I'm libel to just bite the bullet and deal with it than think "better add a chick." Though I can't say that's ever happened to me I usually come up with diverse casts. Probably about my only real talent as a writer, cause it sure as hell ain't prose.

AdeptSister wrote:I think that we have to move away from the elitism in games. [...]

Elitism will probably always be an issue - it's not just a gaming problem, but evolutionary baggage that still has us think in a "we vs them" mentality in many situations. It's why we as a species are still so fond of generalisations and placing people in neatly pre-labelled boxes instead of judging them as individuals.

Melissia wrote:Also, I actually would think that good human judgment would be better than the "coin flip" system. But it's clear that a lot of people are worried that they can't trust their judgment. Which is fine. So it's an alternative.

Ironically, just today I read this. The last paragraph in particular sounds related to the discussion at hand.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:As I mentioned above, I am pretty sure that is how SMBC is working.

SMBC?

Only saw your reply after I posted, btw. I did notice you were going about the same point.

 Ashiraya wrote:

That said, could some of you guys explain to me why, in the history of gaming, I have never seen a female character of this type beyond the one I created myself?

Spoiler:

I mean, sure, it's a stereotypically male role, but surely there could be at least a few?

'Behemoth' armour is surely not reserved for men?

In my attempt to stay positive this time around I've seen something rougly along those lines a couple of times. I'm assuming by "Behemoth" armor you mean heavy armor with a large face-concealing helmet with some variety of horn-like protrusion coming from it. Judge Drace from FF12 is the most recent example I can think of:



It was a nice surprise, considering the games other designs... (ugh, staying positive...)

I'll admit it's rare to the point I cannot think of an example the "Evil" version of this, what with the glowing dark energy and KillingYouAxe. I swear I saw something in the early or mid-90s on the Sega Genesis or the like, but it's escaping me at the moment.

 LordofHats wrote:
I mean, there are different philosophies to approaching characters. I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say 1 way is the right way, but to me, part of a character is getting into that character's head. When I write female characters, it is a struggle because I'm a man not a woman but in that respect I'd rather try and fail than not try at all.

Perhaps the solution here, since most games are created by teams, is to have more than one writer.

Also, how do you determine who should be male and who should be female to begin with? Because you could easily flip a coin to determine their gender BEFORE you write them, if you think gender needs to play a role in how they act.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bullockist wrote:


If I was a developer atm I would actually be putting less female characters in. The easiest way to introduce new characters is as enemies and in the current climate as soon as you make many female enemies you are going to be media slammed for encouraging violence against women. It's kind of a catch 22

I dunno, punching Talia's all-female henchmen in Batman: Arkham City seemed entirely decent to me.

Though I still have a few gripes with that game (Catwoman's boobwindow for example) despite its otherwise excellent quality.

That said, could some of you guys explain to me why, in the history of gaming, I have never seen a female character of this type beyond the one I created myself?

Spoiler:

I mean, sure, it's a stereotypically male role, but surely there could be at least a few?

'Behemoth' armour is surely not reserved for men?

Right?

Right?

all the time on city of heroes, i seem to remember seeing some obese female heroes- or as close as you could make them anyways- lets go with chunky. City of heroes had such a variable character creation that you literally saw characters of all types, and having 5 costumes meant much variation, mine normally had - normal superhero, variation 1, battler armour, evening wear and variation 3.Not saying i didn't make some sexualised heroes, because I sure did, but mostly got comments like nice costume rather than hot or would bang

Lynata- I was talking about the fear execs would have against portraying violence against women (I don't know how sexualised costumes would have any effect on percieved violence on women in games ) when it would simply be a case of making violence against women the same as vs men in video games.

 Asherian Command wrote:




The door is to your left.

That is completely and utterly sexist of a comment.

I suggest you take back your entire argument as it is completely flawed in its logic and delivery.

WE do not say that in the industry.

The fact you say that about a million dollar making industry is appaling.

Do you know what game makes the most money per a year other than World of Warcraft?

Candy Crush. And guess what.... The most used device is a mobile phone. They make over 1.6 Billion Dollars per a year.

So if I say gakky mobile games are gakky I'm sexist? lolwut?

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:
Melissa you have the exact same choises as everybody else. You buy and play the same games as everybody else.

She do not have games that cater to her interests as much as you do.

 illuknisaa wrote:
The reason why women don't get attention from publishers is because women make gakky mobile games. Nobody is interested in gakky mobile games.

This is false.

Skydiving doesn't cater to people who are afraid of heights.

How it is false. Last time I looked companies that are mostly female develop mainly mobile games.
Lets be fair here. Mobile games made by men are gakky too.

Candy crusher is making money? That doesn't make it "not gakky" or interesting.

 Melissia wrote:
Not true at all-- plenty are developing games for the PC as well, and a few even have managed to get games on places like XBox Live. Furthermore, mobile games are the easiest market for indie devs to enter in to to begin with, so it shouldn't be a surprise that new developers, with limited funds and little support from big name companies, would enter in to that market first. It's just good business sense.

Name one game that was/is made by women. Even a failed kickstarter is good enough.

 Chongara wrote:
stuff

Well, it's something!

It does not have to have horns, or anything at all. I was just referring to 'evil-looking armour big enough to significantly increase the user's size'.

Something I never see, which is why I made it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bullockist wrote:

all the time on city of heroes, i seem to remember seeing some obese female heroes- or as close as you could make them anyways- lets go with chunky. City of heroes had such a variable character creation that you literally saw characters of all types, and having 5 costumes meant much variation, mine normally had - normal superhero, variation 1, battler armour, evening wear and variation 3.Not saying i didn't make some sexualised heroes, because I sure did, but mostly got comments like nice costume rather than hot or would bang

Lynata- I was talking about the fear execs would have against portraying violence against women (I don't know how sexualised costumes would have any effect on percieved violence on women in games ) when it would simply be a case of making violence against women the same as vs men in video games.

I want bulk, not obesity!

 LordofHats wrote:

Didn't say developed. Said rounded (there is actually a difference, not being rude mind you). Careful ambiguity is one the great lost arts of modern characters.

In a very twisted way, the best example of a 'rounded character' that is not a 'developed character' is Alucard from Hellsing. Very little of the story is actually spent developing him at all (actually, pretty much none of the story is), but the story gives us a man who at first appears sadistic, arrogant, and unapologetic about anything he does. Story goes on, and the facade is torn away, revealing a broken man who loathes himself and desperately seeks a worthy death. The Hidden Depths behind that character are shocking when revealed, rounding him out greatly while giving him no real development at all; Alucard at the end of Hellsing, is essential the same person he was at the beginning, more or less.

I'm not necessarily asking every game to be a masterpiece of story telling, merely wishing they weren't so damned lazy.

Oh well, let us just say that from time to time, I enjoy games where the main character is (or could as well be) a 0-dimensional cardbox. Like Daniel from Painkiller. I mean, you literally never see him outside of rare and useless cutscenes, I am not even sure you hear him, and the levels are awesome from a visual point of view, but there is absolutely no continuity behind them. Alucard appears sadistic arrogant and unapologetic, Daniel (or Doomguy, I guess, or a bunch of early FPS game main character) is a gun that you move and use to shoot at demon monster things.
Also that is certainly the characters that are the most easily genderswap, because their whole identity is just a goddamn skin, and solo FPS means nobody is ever going to see it anyway.

 Lynata wrote:
SMBC?

Only saw your reply after I posted, btw. I did notice you were going about the same point.

"Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal", a comedy webcomic.

 Melissia wrote:
Also, how do you determine who should be male and who should be female to begin with?

Huh, suppose I do technically flip for sex at the beginning of working on I suppose XD Usually I just start with the male protagonist then add a second who is random (most of the time I juggle at least 2 POV's), but I usually do detailed character histories. I mean, what adolescent, male or female, doesn't have a childhood crush? Or a parents, even if they don't know who their parents are. I tend to fill out all the back story for someone and a lot of my extras come from there, so I guess in many ways I initially start out with societal defaults and mix it up as I go.

So if I say gakky mobile games are gakky I'm sexist? lolwut?

The reason why women don't get attention from publishers is because women make

Ahem That is sexist.

Because women do it, because woman can't make games.

THAT IS SEXIST.

That is entirely sexist.

Name one game that was/is made by women. Even a failed kickstarter is good enough.

There are quite a few games. Diablo 3 reaper of souls was written by woman.

Bullockist wrote:Lynata- I was talking about the fear execs would have against portraying violence against women (I don't know how sexualised costumes would have any effect on percieved violence on women in games ) when it would simply be a case of making violence against women the same as vs men in video games.

Hmmh, do you have an example for this? I can't recall anyone raising a fuss about Fallout 3, for example, and you can blow scantly-clad people up by the limbs there. Dragon Age can get pretty bloody as well. And in ME3 I had a lot of fun popping those female Cerberus assassins' heads off with my heavy pistol.

Melissia wrote:"Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal", a comedy webcomic.

Aaah! Okay, now I remember. Got it in my FB feed.

Hm, interesting detail!

Because women do it, because woman can't make games.

Sexist, not to mention untrue.

Someone needs to be reminded of Vivian James presents Corrinne Yu

nomotog wrote:


My kind of pet peeve is the Women=Dex/Magic Men=Str/Con trope.

Well, to be fair, that's closer to reflecting sexual dimorphism than it would be the other way around.

 SneakyMek wrote:
Well there where so called cantinières that where females that had followed regiments to the battlefield,they did however not take part in the battles themselves.

Each French regiment had women authorized to accompany it on campaign. Designated cantinières or vivandières, they wore clothes of at least partly military design. Their official function within the regiment was to sell tobacco and refreshments such as cognac from their carts and care for the wounded. In the latter role, some inevitably ventured into harm's way and became casualties. Marie Tête-du-bois, the cantinière of the 1st Grenadiers of the Guard, was cut in two by a cannonball at Waterloo.


Anyone is of course free to provide facts that proves that there where female soldiers in the front like during Waterloo and during the Russian expedition.


In any case..lets not get too side tracked from the main focus on this thread.

There is a fairly long list here of military cross-dressers, which of course includes men who disguised themselves as women but mostly is women who disguised themselves as men in order to fight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wartime_cross-dressers

So there it is, proof of women soldiers in many wars. Not sure if this is useful given that they were disguised as men in order to fight, but it could be used for a game plot in which you play a woman who wants to fight and must find ways to conceal your femininity from the rest of the soldiers.

There was also a Carry On film that had this as a plot, in which a young woman disguises herself as a new midshipman to join a warship. Royal Navy ships often carried women in non-direct combat roles since some officers had the privilege of bring their wives on voyages.

Back on topic, computer games are fictions, so it seems to me it is not a major problem to insert ahistorical characters into their plots.

 illuknisaa wrote:
Name one game that was/is made by women. Even a failed kickstarter is good enough.

3-D Tic-Tac-Toe on the Atari.

Yes, I own both an Atari and this game. Another such game was Centipede, a game still copied by a lot of phone games today.

You did ask for "one game that was/is made by women".

Others include Dear Esther (A bizarre experiment of a game; some might accuse it of not being a game at all), Monaco, Braid, Guitar Hero, Thief: Deadly Shadows, Portal, The End of Us, Legacy of Kain and Soul Reaver, Suikoden...

There's been a good number of games developed by women or with women in important or lead development roles-- and, frankly, a lot of them are the more interesting games out there to me. Thankfully, dev companies and producers are getting smarter about including more women on their teams, though it's happening quite slowly.

 Sigvatr wrote:

nomotog wrote:


My kind of pet peeve is the Women=Dex/Magic Men=Str/Con trope.

Well, to be fair, that's closer to reflecting sexual dimorphism than it would be the other way around.

While true, it is nowhere near the levels that it is often portrayed as. The difference between a man and a supersoldier is colossal compared to the difference between a man and a woman.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Also, how do you determine who should be male and who should be female to begin with?

Huh, suppose I do technically flip for sex at the beginning of working on I suppose XD Usually I just start with the male protagonist then add a second who is random (most of the time I juggle at least 2 POV's), but I usually do detailed character histories. I mean, what adolescent, male or female, doesn't have a childhood crush? Or a parents, even if they don't know who their parents are. I tend to fill out all the back story for someone and a lot of my extras come from there, so I guess in many ways I initially start out with societal defaults and mix it up as I go.

Well, at least you're thinking about the process you use. Perhaps you'll refine the process and make it better because if it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
While true, it is nowhere near the levels that it is often portrayed as. The difference between a man and a supersoldier is colossal compared to the difference between a man and a woman.

Also?

Bows take a TON of upper body strength to use, meaning it does NOT reflect the supposed gender dimorphism that Sigvatr refers to.

Ashiraya wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:

nomotog wrote:My kind of pet peeve is the Women=Dex/Magic Men=Str/Con trope.

Well, to be fair, that's closer to reflecting sexual dimorphism than it would be the other way around.

While true, it is nowhere near the levels that it is often portrayed as. The difference between a man and a supersoldier is colossal compared to the difference between a man and a woman.

Not to mention that averages should never constitute a rule. Else you arrive at the very essence of cliché.

 Lynata wrote:

Ashiraya wrote:

Sigvatr wrote:

nomotog wrote:My kind of pet peeve is the Women=Dex/Magic Men=Str/Con trope.

Well, to be fair, that's closer to reflecting sexual dimorphism than it would be the other way around.

While true, it is nowhere near the levels that it is often portrayed as. The difference between a man and a supersoldier is colossal compared to the difference between a man and a woman.

Not to mention that averages should never constitute a rule. Else you arrive at the very essence of cliché.

Indeedy. The strongest woman is far stronger than the average man, and you rarely play average characters.

 Lynata wrote:
SMBC?

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3470
Browse it a bit. Not only most of the strips are awesome, but try to find any pattern in the use of male/female or race, I dare you .

 illuknisaa wrote:
How it is false.

First, publishers are interested in mobile games, because those makes tons of money.
Second, there are many women that work on non-mobile game and many mobile games that are made by men.

 illuknisaa wrote:
Name one game that was/is made by women.

Only by women? Do you have any idea of the number of people it takes to make a game? What about I ask you to name any AAA title made only by men?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I want bulk, not obesity!

You should definitely try DC Universe Online, it has tons of character costume option (well, many are not available from the start and need to be gained, though). I will try to get a few nice costume on my character to screenshot for you later if I have time before leaving the lab.

 illuknisaa wrote:

Name one game that was/is made by women. Even a failed kickstarter is good enough.

Roberta Williams was the developer of the KQ games and the cofounder of Sierra. I believe the later games were codeveloped by another woman, though her name escapes me.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3470
Browse it a bit. Not only most of the strips are awesome, but try to find any pattern in the use of male/female or race, I dare you .

Yeah, as mentioned before I even know and regularly read it (well, whenever it pops up in my feed) - the abbreviation just totally escaped my mind.
And I didn't know that rather interesting bit about the characters. I guess I just assumed they were established characters.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:You should definitely try DC Universe Online, it has tons of character costume option (well, many are not available from the start and need to be gained, though). I will try to get a few nice costume on my character to screenshot for you later if I have time before leaving the lab.

Or Champions Online! *shameless plug*

Okay, personally I only play it in phases of a couple weeks every few months. But I do remember a rather cool character design that was some paraplegic woman who wore a suit of bulky, menacing power armour she interfaced with via a series of painful spikes drilled into her spine - her hero name was "Iron Maiden".

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 SneakyMek wrote:
Well there where so called cantinières that where females that had followed regiments to the battlefield,they did however not take part in the battles themselves.

Each French regiment had women authorized to accompany it on campaign. Designated cantinières or vivandières, they wore clothes of at least partly military design. Their official function within the regiment was to sell tobacco and refreshments such as cognac from their carts and care for the wounded. In the latter role, some inevitably ventured into harm's way and became casualties. Marie Tête-du-bois, the cantinière of the 1st Grenadiers of the Guard, was cut in two by a cannonball at Waterloo.


Anyone is of course free to provide facts that proves that there where female soldiers in the front like during Waterloo and during the Russian expedition.


In any case..lets not get too side tracked from the main focus on this thread.

There is a fairly long list here of military cross-dressers, which of course includes men who disguised themselves as women but mostly is women who disguised themselves as men in order to fight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wartime_cross-dressers

So there it is, proof of women soldiers in many wars. Not sure if this is useful given that they were disguised as men in order to fight, but it could be used for a game plot in which you play a woman who wants to fight and must find ways to conceal your femininity from the rest of the soldiers.

There was also a Carry On film that had this as a plot, in which a young woman disguises herself as a new midshipman to join a warship. Royal Navy ships often carried women in non-direct combat roles since some officers had the privilege of bring their wives on voyages.

Back on topic, computer games are fictions, so it seems to me it is not a major problem to insert ahistorical characters into their plots.

Agreed. I mean there was a game recently called wolfenstien the new order where one of the main villains was an old woman. Actually the entire cast was mixed race. They all were americans, brits, french, deutsch, polish etc.

 Lynata wrote:
And I didn't know that rather interesting bit about the characters. I guess I just assumed they were established characters.

It has never been officially stated, as far as I know. It is just an observation I have made.

 Lynata wrote:
Or Champions Online! *shameless plug*

If we play different superhero MMO, how are we going to meet online ?

Damn long update, since I have not played the game for quite a while.