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2014/09/07 10:04:32
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to parade Tomb Raider as an example of sexism, but at least for a time being the series was obviously twisting Lara into a sex-symbol. Official promo-art I'm glad that the reboot represents a more "serious" approach that does the original game more justice than its sequels, in terms of character design. Still, for every Tomb Raider- or Remember Me-style positive AAA example you can find, I think I can name two negative ones. Games with a female protagonist are ridiculously rare, anyways, given that we have devs on record stating they have trouble selling such ideas to the publishers. TotalBiscuit commented on this lack in his Remember Me-review as well. Aliens Colonial Marines attracted a bit of attention here as well, as female characters initially were not planned - which was ridiculous enough to have even some of the original actors of the multi-gendered Aliens2 Marines add their signatures to an online petition to at least make them available in multiplayer.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Asherian Command wrote:I would like to see women fighting against me.
Because currently I feel evil for only killing men.
Which kind of games are you playing? Because many, many of them will allow you to fight and kill women.
That applies mostly to ones set in a sci-fi setting, I think. The majority of historical or modern ones tend to omit them - I believe because a lot of devs are still unaware of women even participating as combatants in such scenarios. Take "War of the Roses", for example, where the studio stated female characters would not be playable for historical reasons. I mean, it's not like there's a muster roll of that era in the UK Royal Armoury archives serving as proof that that women got enrolled into combat formations. But how many people are actually aware that there were female knights or female samurai? Stuff like that isn't discussed, so it's no wonder that you don't see it in games. It's like a vicious cycle where absence of exposure leads to absence of exposure.
Another issue is of course that it creates an additional strain on a game's budget, though here the studio would have to decide how much it values realism and/or wishes to promote equality. It's certainly not impossible to let such considerations flow into the planning stage, especially if you wish to advertise on one of those factors (like the various FPS that feature WW2 Stalingrad, for example). Considering what else cash is being spent on, people will just have to excuse me for not buying into that "too expensive" argument as being a valid cop-out in all cases.
And even in a sci-fi setting ... I cannot remember encountering a single female cop or merc in Deus Ex-HR for example, two named exceptions (one of whom was a detective being undercover as a whore) aside.
[edit] Damn this thread has picked up pace ...
CthuluIsSpy wrote:I mean games that feature women as a generic enemy type that actively try to kill you. Not as neutrals, not as civilians, I mean they will find you and shoot you.
I thought we were discussing those only, too. And I'm pretty sure this is what Asherian Command meant.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/09/07 10:11:56
2014/09/07 10:06:06
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
It is going to be pretty long. I am going to start with every fighting game with a female character (i.e. almost all of them), all moba with a female character (i.e. almost all of them), all multiplayer FPS with a female character. Then, Diablo, Diablo II, Diablo III, Path of Exile, Streets of Rage, Warcraft III, Starcraft, Starcraft II, the Hitman series ( ), every GTA game, the Saint Row's series, the Postal series, the Left 4 dead series (well, zombie women anyway), every Elder's scroll game I guess, every Heroes of Might and Magic I guess …
BS.
EDIT: @Lynata Why do you call sexy negative?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/07 10:13:20
Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.
If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in.
2014/09/07 10:37:24
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Lynata wrote: That applies mostly to ones set in a sci-fi setting, I think. The majority of historical or modern ones tend to omit them - I believe because a lot of devs are still unaware of women even participating as combatants in such scenarios. Take "War of the Roses", for example, where the studio stated female characters would not be playable for historical reasons. I mean, it's not like there's a muster roll of that era in the UK Royal Armoury archives serving as proof that that women got enrolled into combat formations. But how many people are actually aware that there were female knights or female samurai? Stuff like that isn't discussed, so it's no wonder that you don't see it in games. It's like a vicious cycle where absence of exposure leads to absence of exposure.
I'd call it more a "vicious cycle of being exceedingly rare" than anything.
Another issue is of course that it creates an additional strain on a game's budget, though here the studio would have to decide how much it values realism and/or wishes to promote equality.
I'd rather they focused on how much it wishes to promote good game play rather than equality, which I think is part of where this big divide is coming from.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/07 10:37:54
2014/09/07 10:55:27
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Okay, scratch the multiplayer games then. Still Diablo, Diablo II, Diablo III, Path of Exile, Streets of Rage, Warcraft II, Starcraft, Starcraft II, some Hitman games I guess, Postal (2 at least, I have not played the other), the Left 4 dead games, Heroes of Might and Magic
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/07 11:00:56
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Yes. Tomb Raider never aimed at shock value. It is “Indiana Jones with a sexy lead instead”. No more violence than in a movie that was never considered particularly violent to begin with. But it was aiming at sexy, clearly.
And it was a very big, mainstream game.
Lynata wrote: Aliens Colonial Marines attracted a bit of attention here as well, as female characters initially were not planned - which was ridiculous enough to have even some of the original actors of the multi-gendered Aliens2 Marines add their signatures to an online petition to at least make them available in multiplayer.
Vasquez. Just Vasquez. The only marine from Alien 2 whose name is remembered .
Lynata wrote: That applies mostly to ones set in a sci-fi setting, I think.
Or fantasy. See Diablo and PoE for instance.
I cannot really comment on historical and modern settings, I tend to avoid them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Technically the women in the -craft games aren't really enemies either, since you can use them yourself.
They are NPCs with no name trying to kill you, that you can kill in return. What is your problem there?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/07 11:05:08
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/07 11:27:29
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Technically the women in the -craft games aren't really enemies either, since you can use them yourself.
They are NPCs with no name trying to kill you, that you can kill in return. What is your problem there?
Just a couple of technicalities. The first is that they are not NPCs; you may control an Ultralisk in Starcraft at some point in the game, for example, but you may not control a Big Daddy in Bioshock. You may not play as a unit in a strategy game, but you do exery enough control over it for it to be considered playable. Now, if the -craft games featured an unplayable warrior-women faction, you may have a point.
The second is that they are not trying to kill the player character, as in a strategy game there is no player character, so "trying to kill you" in this context is false.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/07 11:42:12
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2014/09/07 11:57:16
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Because currently I feel evil for only killing men.
Which kind of games are you playing? Because many, many of them will allow you to fight and kill women.
May we have a list? I can only think of 8 games where women are a standard enemy, along with their male counterparts. That's not many; that's actually quite tiny compared to the majority of games out there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/07 11:58:58
Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.
If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in.
2014/09/07 11:58:56
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
H.B.M.C. wrote: What's wrong with women being enemies in a game, exactly?
I'd kind of like an answer to this, too, myself.
I mean gak, the Knives of Artemis ripped players apart in CoH/V....
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/07 14:00:51
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Like how everyone who played Resident Evil 5 just wanted to shoot black people?
That's the reason I bought it! Is there something wrong with this?
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
2014/09/07 14:03:03
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
H.B.M.C. wrote: What's wrong with women being enemies in a game, exactly?
You completely missed the discussion .
Some people complained about not enough enemies being women. Nobody wants less enemies being women.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/07 14:23:06
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
It's not negative if you just deliver it with a bit of taste and awareness instead of going all-out in order to appeal to people's junk more than their brains. The original Lara Croft was sexy. Gradually increasing her boobs, shortening her clothes, and having her pose in seductive positions more suitable to an issue of Playboy, however, turns the character from a heroine into a pin-up girl. And that's objectification.
I like sexy characters. I build them myself in the games I play. I have posters of sexy characters in my room. I have little statues of sexy characters on my desk in the office.
But there's a thin line between "sexy" and "porn", and whilst there is also a place for the latter I don't want to have it feel forced in the games I play as I think it reduces the badassness of the character and (possibly) my immersion. Taking the sequels to the original Tomb Raider as an example, Eidos went from "play this cool-looking heroine's adventures" to "LOOK AT THOSE BOOBS, LOOK AT THEM".
Seaward wrote:I'd rather they focused on how much it wishes to promote good game play rather than equality, which I think is part of where this big divide is coming from.
To me, variety and (depending on the game) realism are part of good gameplay. Also, obviously it's not like you can't have both. Having female characters does not reduce a game's chance to be fun, nor does their absence increase it.
Here's a challenge: name any game that didn't feature female characters where they could be expected, and I'll suggest something else that could have been cut first.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Technically the women in the -craft games aren't really enemies either, since you can use them yourself.
Now, now - they are valid examples. Of course, there is that weirdness in how the StarCraft series forces them mostly into noncom-roles as medics and medevac pilots. Even the ghosts, of whom the most popular and well-known example is a girl, are all-male when you build them.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:But it was aiming at sexy, clearly. And it was a very big, mainstream game.
Well, then I wouldn't use the series as an example of how it's supposedly gotten better. Let's hope that the newest title constitutes a fresh start, though.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Or fantasy. See Diablo and PoE for instance.
Well, I don't agree here. At least from my experience those games are exceptions rather than the rule.
H.B.M.C. wrote:What's wrong with women being enemies in a game, exactly?
There's not enough of them.
illuknisaa wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:What's wrong with women being enemies in a game, exactly?
Nothing. Some poster just wanted to shoot women.
Spoiler:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Lynata wrote:Because currently I feel evil for only killing men.
Which kind of games are you playing? Because many, many of them will allow you to fight and kill women.
May we have a list? I can only think of 8 games where women are a standard enemy, along with their male counterparts. That's not many; that's actually quite tiny compared to the majority of games out there.
Psst, that wasn't me.
Though I agree with the poster, but I'm not feeling evil about it.
2014/09/07 14:43:27
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
H.B.M.C. wrote: What's wrong with women being enemies in a game, exactly?
I'd kind of like an answer to this, too, myself.
I mean gak, the Knives of Artemis ripped players apart in CoH/V....
I could see ways for it to be a problem. Like if you only had female enemies or the only women in your game were enemies and then you characterized poorly. Like if there was a game that wanted you to kill women because the game called them sluts. Actually there is a awkward level in dishonored were you are assassinating a women because she is dating the villain and that is about it. Your never told anything she dose wrong. (You actually don't have to assassinate her, you can drug her and then give her over to a man who looks and acts like a stalker...)
2014/09/07 14:43:55
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
H.B.M.C. wrote: What's wrong with women being enemies in a game, exactly?
I'd kind of like an answer to this, too, myself.
I mean gak, the Knives of Artemis ripped players apart in CoH/V....
I could see ways for it to be a problem. Like if you only had female enemies or the only women in your game were enemies and then you characterized poorly. Like if there was a game that wanted you to kill women because the game called them sluts. Actually there is a awkward level in dishonored were you are assassinating a women because she is dating the villain and that is about it. Your never told anything she dose wrong. (You actually don't have to assassinate her, you can drug her and then give her over to a man who looks and acts like a stalker...)
She's financing his army. That's why she was a target. Not to mention that she was
Lynata wrote: Of course, there is that weirdness in how the StarCraft series forces them mostly into noncom-roles as medics and medevac pilots. Even the ghosts, of whom the most popular and well-known example is a girl, are all-male when you build them.
How could you forget the valkyrie pilot and her lovely voice?
Also Banshee.
Lynata wrote: Well, I don't agree here. At least from my experience those games are exceptions rather than the rule.
Well, I find games in a fantasy setting where you get to kill male humans but not female humans rather rare. Do you have some examples?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/07 14:57:53
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
The developers later admitted via Twitter that they had been "wrongheaded" about the idea to give Lady Boyle to her stalker, and said that "she probably wrapped that pathetic adoring creep around her finger."
That's like, admitting you did something a little bit not right, and then saying it wasn't right for the completely wrong reason. Stalkers do not work that way.
Granted, with the exception of Lydia I found the Boyle sisters completely abhorrent as people, so whatever happened to them happened
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/07 15:06:36
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
H.B.M.C. wrote: What's wrong with women being enemies in a game, exactly?
I'd kind of like an answer to this, too, myself.
I mean gak, the Knives of Artemis ripped players apart in CoH/V....
I could see ways for it to be a problem. Like if you only had female enemies or the only women in your game were enemies and then you characterized poorly. Like if there was a game that wanted you to kill women because the game called them sluts. Actually there is a awkward level in dishonored were you are assassinating a women because she is dating the villain and that is about it. Your never told anything she dose wrong. (You actually don't have to assassinate her, you can drug her and then give her over to a man who looks and acts like a stalker...)
She's financing his army. That's why she was a target.
Not to mention that she was
They do actually tell you why she's a target. There's a briefing before each mission.
I don't recall any of that being talked about in the briefing, so I went and looked again. It's there. I guess I must have missed it the first time. (I also forgot that was the level with the peeking thing.)
2014/09/07 19:48:59
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
It's not negative if you just deliver it with a bit of taste and awareness instead of going all-out in order to appeal to people's junk more than their brains. The original Lara Croft was sexy. Gradually increasing her boobs, shortening her clothes, and having her pose in seductive positions more suitable to an issue of Playboy, however, turns the character from a heroine into a pin-up girl. And that's objectification.
While I will admit I don't care either way for Lara (Only game of hers I've really enjoyed was the last one), the idea of sexualization/objectification isn't inherently bad (Look at Duke Nukem) taken in moderation. The real problem with the industry is that the moderation doesn't exist, and the idea of sexualization/objectification is woefully one sided.
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2014/09/07 19:53:27
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
It's not negative if you just deliver it with a bit of taste and awareness instead of going all-out in order to appeal to people's junk more than their brains. The original Lara Croft was sexy. Gradually increasing her boobs, shortening her clothes, and having her pose in seductive positions more suitable to an issue of Playboy, however, turns the character from a heroine into a pin-up girl. And that's objectification.
While I will admit I don't care either way for Lara (Only game of hers I've really enjoyed was the last one), the idea of sexualization/objectification isn't inherently bad (Look at Duke Nukem) taken in moderation. The real problem with the industry is that the moderation doesn't exist, and the idea of sexualization/objectification is woefully one sided.
Is sexualization permanently linked to objectification?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/07 19:57:40
2014/09/07 19:55:51
Subject: Re:What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
That does not fall within the purview of my thoughts on the matter; if it does and/or doesn't, it doesn't matter that it's all one sided. That Guy Raider that was posted in one of the threads we've had going on this is a good example (I think, I dunno what the ladies like).
I've never feared Death or Dying. I've only feared never Trying.
2014/09/08 00:28:35
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
It's not negative if you just deliver it with a bit of taste and awareness instead of going all-out in order to appeal to people's junk more than their brains. The original Lara Croft was sexy. Gradually increasing her boobs, shortening her clothes, and having her pose in seductive positions more suitable to an issue of Playboy, however, turns the character from a heroine into a pin-up girl. And that's objectification.
Objectification makes no sense. It is so easy to do a 180 with it.
Every time I hear "in my opinion" or "just my opinion" makes me want to strangle a puppy. People use their opinions as a shield that other poeple can't critisize and that is bs.
If you can't defend or won't defend your opinion then that "opinion" is bs. Stop trying to tip-toe and defend what you believe in.
2014/09/08 00:29:46
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?