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If our brains were so simple we could understand them completely, they'd be so simple we couldn't.

Fun times.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Fighting games don't really count; those women are not enemy NPCs as you can play as them, not to mention that they are actual characters
I mean games that feature women as a generic enemy type that actively try to kill you. Not as neutrals, not as civilians, I mean they will find you and shoot you. The saints row games where indeed among the 8 I was thinking of. Well, 2 and 3 anyway. Never played 1 though.

Gender wars.

(runs for cover)

No seriously though. It was a real game from some 20 years ago. Look it up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
If our brains were so simple we could understand them completely, they'd be so simple we couldn't.

Fun times.

So they ARE that simple then.

 daedalus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Fighting games don't really count; those women are not enemy NPCs as you can play as them, not to mention that they are actual characters
I mean games that feature women as a generic enemy type that actively try to kill you. Not as neutrals, not as civilians, I mean they will find you and shoot you. The saints row games where indeed among the 8 I was thinking of. Well, 2 and 3 anyway. Never played 1 though.

Gender wars.

(runs for cover)

No seriously though. It was a real game from some 20 years ago. Look it up.

Oh yeah, I heard of that game.
That's the one that's meant to be a parody of that whole "War of the Sexes" nonsense, isn't it?

I remember that game. Never played it though, but did see write-ups in gaming magazines (remember them?) back in the day.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
May we have a list?

It is going to be pretty long. I am going to start with every fighting game with a female character (i.e. almost all of them), all moba with a female character (i.e. almost all of them), all multiplayer FPS with a female character. Then, Diablo, Diablo II, Diablo III, Path of Exile, Streets of Rage, Warcraft III, Starcraft, Starcraft II, the Hitman series ( ), every GTA game, the Saint Row's series, the Postal series, the Left 4 dead series (well, zombie women anyway), every Elder's scroll game I guess, every Heroes of Might and Magic I guess …

Can I just reply to this with a couple of issues.

As far as I know most of these games actually are a problem.

The Diablo games, for the most part, only show sexy female enemies. Andariel exposes her breasts. The most common female monsters are the spites(or whatever you call them) which just cast magic, a typical "female ability", and are scantily clad. Next most common are the act 1 Rogues who are all wearing thongs and boob plates. The message in those games (up until Leah and D3) is that if you are a woman who has power, you must be sexy. Also your power is not directly physical, as even Andariel, the most physical focused female combatant has poison as her main attack power.

The hitman series. That's the game where you can assasinate people, and in some levels you enter a sexy bunny club, or a sexy nun club where the enemies are female. For the most part the enemies are either sexy women, or men in normal clothes. The levels where you have to kill a drug lord have no female combatants that i saw, only unarmed women.

I have no experience with Path of Exile, but I assume it is similar to Diablo.

Streets of Rage. There were a lot of sexy costumes, but some of the men had sexy costumes. Your first female enemy has high heels, all leather and a whip with a visible thong. You first male enemies are just dressed as street gang members. Not terrible, not good though.

Warcraft 3. The only female enemy I remember is the sorceress who had a somewhat sexualised costume (high boots are totally impractical, as is a top which you will constantly pop out of on the battle field). Again, magic attacker, there's no female with physical prowess.

Starcraft games, as far as I know, are ok. Might have some armour issues, but don't remember anything that was stand out.

GTA:
So killing prostitutes who hardly ever have guns, and innocent women counts as enemies? The number of female enemies that don't fit in the below categories are so few and far in number that I'm not sure it's worth mentioning.
-sexualised much more than male counter parts
-prostitutes
-spoiled two dimensional daddies girls who just want sex with protagonist/some other guy
-sexy assasins
-useless in combat
-weaponless

Plus the advertising of GTA does not help the female cause at all.

Out of the others I've only played the Heroes of Might and Magic series, and those are actually good. Queen in command, doing her thing. Not needing sex or sexiness to do so.

 bertnernie wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
May we have a list?

It is going to be pretty long. I am going to start with every fighting game with a female character (i.e. almost all of them), all moba with a female character (i.e. almost all of them), all multiplayer FPS with a female character. Then, Diablo, Diablo II, Diablo III, Path of Exile, Streets of Rage, Warcraft III, Starcraft, Starcraft II, the Hitman series ( ), every GTA game, the Saint Row's series, the Postal series, the Left 4 dead series (well, zombie women anyway), every Elder's scroll game I guess, every Heroes of Might and Magic I guess …

Can I just reply to this with a couple of issues.

As far as I know most of these games actually are a problem.

The Diablo games, for the most part, only show sexy female enemies. Andariel exposes her breasts. The most common female monsters are the spites(or whatever you call them) which just cast magic, a typical "female ability", and are scantily clad. Next most common are the act 1 Rogues who are all wearing thongs and boob plates. The message in those games (up until Leah and D3) is that if you are a woman who has power, you must be sexy. Also your power is not directly physical, as even Andariel, the most physical focused female combatant has poison as her main attack power.

The hitman series. That's the game where you can assasinate people, and in some levels you enter a sexy bunny club, or a sexy nun club where the enemies are female. For the most part the enemies are either sexy women, or men in normal clothes. The levels where you have to kill a drug lord have no female combatants that i saw, only unarmed women.

I have no experience with Path of Exile, but I assume it is similar to Diablo.

Streets of Rage. There were a lot of sexy costumes, but some of the men had sexy costumes. Your first female enemy has high heels, all leather and a whip with a visible thong. You first male enemies are just dressed as street gang members. Not terrible, not good though.

Warcraft 3. The only female enemy I remember is the sorceress who had a somewhat sexualised costume (high boots are totally impractical, as is a top which you will constantly pop out of on the battle field). Again, magic attacker, there's no female with physical prowess.

Starcraft games, as far as I know, are ok. Might have some armour issues, but don't remember anything that was stand out.

GTA:
So killing prostitutes who hardly ever have guns, and innocent women counts as enemies? The number of female enemies that don't fit in the below categories are so few and far in number that I'm not sure it's worth mentioning.
-sexualised much more than male counter parts
-prostitutes
-spoiled two dimensional daddies girls who just want sex with protagonist/some other guy
-sexy assasins
-useless in combat
-weaponless

Plus the advertising of GTA does not help the female cause at all.

Out of the others I've only played the Heroes of Might and Magic series, and those are actually good. Queen in command, doing her thing. Not needing sex or sexiness to do so.

Warcraft 3. The only female enemy I remember is the sorceress who had a somewhat sexualised costume (high boots are totally impractical, as is a top which you will constantly pop out of on the battle field). Again, magic attacker, there's no female with physical prowess.

AS a WC3 Map maker, I find that completely false.

The entire Night elf race is made up of women. O.O

There are custom units that are female. The Ranger, The Villager, The dark ranger, Slyvanas Windrunner, Jaina Proudmoore, Lady Vashj, Naga Sirens, Naga Summoners, Succubus, Wraiths, Banshees, and then finally the high eleven villager.

There are tons of units that are female.

Please do proper research before you talk about it.

Plus the Sorceress Character. Is probably the most overpowered unit in the game with polymorph and slow. She floats around, she uses magic. She really doesn't give two craps about anything, because... Well. She kind of kicks a lot of ass if put in a proper position

All of WC3 is about positioning and micro. And intense almost OCD microing but still. A group of 15 sorceresses can change an entire army into bloody sheep and kill them with ease. Or they make the entire army invisible and sneak into someones base and kill everyone there.

The Diablo games, for the most part, only show sexy female enemies. Andariel exposes her breasts. The most common female monsters are the spites(or whatever you call them) which just cast magic, a typical "female ability", and are scantily clad. Next most common are the act 1 Rogues who are all wearing thongs and boob plates. The message in those games (up until Leah and D3) is that if you are a woman who has power, you must be sexy. Also your power is not directly physical, as even Andariel, the most physical focused female combatant has poison as her main attack power.

The Assassin and Amazon want a word with you.

All those were succubus's. They are succubus. Lets repeat that. They are succubus's. ITs sort of their job to be sexy. Andariel is the Queen of all Succubus's. So no duh she would do that. She is known to be beautiful, but also scary as gak.

GTA-

Prostitutes are actually thought to be actually in control of situations. Do you pay them to do things? No, you are required to pay them. They control you.




Who cares how they are dressed it really matters on their setting.
Does it make sense. Is it within reason?

If it doesn't. Then they didn't do a good job.

 Asherian Command wrote:

The entire Night elf race is made up of women. O.O

 Asherian Command wrote:

Please do proper research before you talk about it.

I'm an active anti-fan of blizzard and yet I still knew that wasn't true

 Melissia wrote:
I'm an active anti-fan of blizzard and yet I still knew that wasn't true

Which bit?

The majority of the Night Elves in wc3 are women. The Sentinels were extremely active during Warcraft 3. There are only 4 playable men in the night elf army.

They were half and half. The man were simply in their long sleep cycle during the opening half of WC3, and were in the process of waking up. By the time of WoWCraft, they had all awoken.

Also, you said the ENTIRE race was made up of women, not the majority

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I'm an active anti-fan of blizzard and yet I still knew that wasn't true

Which bit?

The majority of the Night Elves in wc3 are women. The Sentinels were extremely active during Warcraft 3. There are only 4 playable men in the night elf army.

I do believe you forgot about the Druids, who are men.
So the entirety (which is what you claimed) of the Night Elves faction is not, in fact, composed of women...just about 95%, though that's only because the rest of the men were sleeping...
Lazy buggers.

I believe that according to WoW, it's roughly half and half, though WoW is further along the timeline than WC3 was I think?

fethed if I know, the 'craft series lore got lame after Tides of Darkness.

 Melissia wrote:
They were half and half. The man were simply in their long sleep cycle during the opening half of WC3, and were in the process of waking up. By the time of WoWCraft, they had all awoken.

Also, you said the ENTIRE race was made up of women, not the majority

Whoops my bad

I corrected my statement. But what is playable is mostly women.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
They were half and half. The man were simply in their long sleep cycle during the opening half of WC3, and were in the process of waking up. By the time of WoWCraft, they had all awoken.

Also, you said the ENTIRE race was made up of women, not the majority

Whoops my bad

I corrected my statement. But what is playable is mostly women.

I think examples like the Night Elves are.... not the best. I've always found the idea of having the "Female Action" feels shaky. It's like

"Let's add some female warriors!"
"OK. Do we fully integrate them into one of our faction's armies, showing them as soldiers like any other?"
"Hmm. Naw. It's going to be like a whole faction of them on their own."
"Why... that way?"
"Oh. Like all the dudes are spellcasters and asleep . So of course they're the warriors."
"That doesn't feel like it cheapens it a bit to you?
"Oh no. Not all."
"Uh.. sure. Ok. So how what were you thinking about thematically? Maybe a dwarf off-shoot with heavy bruisers and stone-manipulation or a race of giants focused on having only a few elite units"
"Naw. New kind of elf. They're all stealthy, fragile and agile. With a moon goodness and battle bikinis and cats, and sexy battle quotes.
"Hmm. Well it wasn't really what I was thinking of when you brought up the idea. You're sure none of this feels a bit awkward or overdone?"
"No way man. This like totally fresh and totally badass"
"OK. If you're sure then I'm sure. Let's run with it."

 Chongara wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
They were half and half. The man were simply in their long sleep cycle during the opening half of WC3, and were in the process of waking up. By the time of WoWCraft, they had all awoken.

Also, you said the ENTIRE race was made up of women, not the majority

Whoops my bad

I corrected my statement. But what is playable is mostly women.

I think examples like the Night Elves are.... not the best. I've always found the idea of having the "Female Action" feels shaky. It's like

"Let's add some female warriors!"
"OK. Do we fully integrate them into one of our faction's armies, showing them as soldiers like any other?"
"Hmm. Naw. It's going to be like a whole faction of them on their own."
"Why... that way?"
"Oh. Like all the dudes are spellcasters and asleep . So of course they're the warriors."
"That doesn't feel like it cheapens it a bit to you?
"Oh no. Not all."
"Uh.. sure. Ok. So how what were you thinking about thematically? Maybe a dwarf off-shoot with heavy bruisers and stone-manipulation or a race of giants focused on having only a few elite units"
"Naw. New kind of elf. They're all stealthy, fragile and agile. With a moon goodness and battle bikinis and cats, and sexy battle quotes.
"Hmm. Well it wasn't really what I was thinking of when you brought up the idea. You're sure none of this feels a bit awkward or overdone?"
"No way man. This like totally fresh and totally badass"
"OK. If you're sure then I'm sure. Let's run with it."

I mean they do have some spellcasters. I mean the Dryads are a pain, and the Priestess of the Moon Rides a giant tiger and can call down stars falling from the sky.

I mean its pretty cool. But its farther than most games go.

 bertnernie wrote:
As far as I know most of these games actually are a problem.

I did not say there was no problem with the representation of women in games, just that “you never get to kill women, only men” was not so true.

 bertnernie wrote:
Andariel exposes her breasts.

I would be much more concerned about the rogues that wear actual sexy clothing than with some demon that just happens to wear no clothes. Naked breasts are okay for children movies, so they are okay for me too. Sexy clothing are not really okay for children movies.

 bertnernie wrote:
The most common female monsters are the spites(or whatever you call them) which just cast magic, a typical "female ability", and are scantily clad.

The spites?
For me, the most common female monsters are the rogues, that come in spear, hammer and shield, or archer category.
The other female enemy I remember were catwomen that attacked you either with lashes, throwing spears, or throwing flasks of poison, and harpies that used spell and kicks you with their talons.

 bertnernie wrote:
The message in those games (up until Leah and D3) is that if you are a woman who has power, you must be sexy. Also your power is not directly physical, as even Andariel, the most physical focused female combatant has poison as her main attack power.

Assassins can be either focused on traps or on hitting stuff very hard until it dies. Amazon can focus on either bow/javelin, or just on hitting stuff very hard with a spear. I do not really agree here.

 bertnernie wrote:
I have no experience with Path of Exile, but I assume it is similar to Diablo.

It is a bit different. Not outright better, though, just different. Your own character, if female, will not be sexualized at all, for instance, and you get a bunch of NPCs and tons of enemies that are not either. But you also have some that are ridiculously so, and, most prominently, you have the HUD itself, with naked women in lascivious position chained to your health and mana globe. Yeah, I know, that is pretty bad, and totally out of tone with the game.
Also female character tend to be more focused on magic or shooting too. For player classes, the female one are the full intelligence Witch designed mainly for magic, the full dexterity Ranger designed mainly for bows, and the Scion which is the hybrid, 1/3 strength 1/3 dexterity 1/3 intelligence, can-become-anything jack of all trade character.
As for enemies, the female ones tend to be more about magic/shootiness, but thankfully there are exception.

 bertnernie wrote:
Warcraft 3. The only female enemy I remember is the sorceress

As mentioned above, you forgot about half of the night elves units. But yeah, sadly all in sexualized outfits. The huntress and the warden being the only one hitting stuff in close combat.

 bertnernie wrote:
Starcraft games, as far as I know, are ok. Might have some armour issues, but don't remember anything that was stand out.

The medics had the same huge armor as the marines. The banshee pilots wear one of the most ridiculous boob armor ever. The female ghost armor is painted on them rather than put on, I guess. We only see the head of that awesome, awesome valkyrie pilot of awesome, so it is left to us to imagine some awesome armor.

 Asherian Command wrote:
All those were succubus's. They are succubus. Lets repeat that. They are succubus's. ITs sort of their job to be sexy.

Why do we always get tons of sexy succubus and no sexy incubus ever?

 Melissia wrote:
I'm an active anti-fan of blizzard

What?

Mel will take any opportunity to bash Blizzard, right or wrong.

I'm saying I have generally been bored by or even actively disliked just about everything Blizzard has produced after Warcraft 2: Tides of Darkness and Diablo 2.

Why do we always get tons of sexy succubus and no sexy incubus ever?

Incubus's are hard to create. I mean they are just terrifying.

They are described as being succubus, but also terrifying.

They are basically rape professionals who make you think that you enjoy it.

Plus everyone would probably yell at you for thinking that incubus are interesting.

(Which they kind of are interesting, they are rarely dealt with)

The night elves get a little better in the expansion. It adds another female hero unit and they are melee too.

nomotog wrote:
The night elves get a little better in the expansion. It adds another female hero unit and they are melee too.

And half of the characters in the night elf campaign are female.

 Melissia wrote:
I'm saying I have generally been bored by or even actively disliked just about everything Blizzard has produced after Warcraft 2: Tides of Darkness and Diablo 2.

Not liking any Starcraft? Damn.

 Asherian Command wrote:
[Incubus] are basically rape professionals who make you think that you enjoy it.

But that is exactly the same as succubus, right?
Also, please, only quote the part your are responding too in case of a huge wall of text like that .

I would have liked starcraft if it weren't for the fact that Total Annihilation had been released months before, but was massively better in every way

 Asherian Command wrote:
I mean its pretty cool. But its farther than most games go.

This is a fair point. It certainly did have female characters with their own stories and ones in leadership positions at that. It's a definitely solid in that regard. It also had aspects that grated on me. I certainly wouldn't give it a failing grade by any means. Games in general struggle so much the curve is pretty low.

Still It would have be nice if it'd taken approach to the difference in male/female character design that something like Final Fantasy Tactics does:



Distinct, but generally not [Concept] and sexy Halloween costume of [Concept].

Not liking any Starcraft? Damn.

 Asherian Command wrote:
[Incubus] are basically rape professionals who make you think that you enjoy it.

But that is exactly the same as succubus, right?
Also, please, only quote the part your are responding too in case of a huge wall of text like that .

Yeah that is true. Succubus are basically known to women placed in that bit of being the extreme sexy but also being omg I hope that never happens to me.

They are kind of scary in everything.

I liked Total Annihilation, but if I recall correctly I like Starcraft better. But the soundtrack from Total Annihilation was absolutely awesome.

Starcraft couldn't even do nukes right. TA could though

 Chongara wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I mean its pretty cool. But its farther than most games go.

This is a fair point. It certainly did have female characters with their own stories and ones in leadership positions at that. It's a definitely solid in that regard. It also had aspects that grated on me. I certainly wouldn't give it a failing grade by any means. Games in general struggle so much the curve is pretty low.

Still It would have be nice if it'd taken approach to the difference in male/female character design that something like Final Fantasy Tactics does:

Spoiler:

Distinct, but generally not [Concept] and sexy Halloween costume of [Concept].

I remember final fantasy tactics, most final fantasy games until recently had great female characters that were not sexualized.

Final fantasy 5 had a main cast of mostly females.

Three female, two male, IIRC. eventually became three female one male, WITHOUT being a harem game. Which was nice.

Hey! Some of us enjoy Ship Wars