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2014/09/16 17:30:33
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
You're asking women to justify our existence in games, while never ONCE demanding men justify their existence. That I'm willing to call you out on your misogynistic double standard doesn't mean I can't see your logic. I see your logic, and I think it's CRAP.
Let me turn your "logic" around on you: So what if I can be a guy? What does that add to the game? Nothing . Therefor, there's no reason for the character to be male.
Take Final Fantasy 7. There is no benefit to Final Fantasy 7 that Cloud Strife is male rather than female. There is nothing that the game can do in FF7 with a male Cloud that could not be done with a female Cloud. It doesn't discuss "men's issues" or anything male-specific for Cloud's character There's nothing that him being male adds to the game. So using your logic, he shouldn't be male.
If you're tired of your double standard being called out, you should own up to it stop pushing the fething double standard.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/16 17:33:27
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/16 17:32:37
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
You're asking women to justify our existence in games, while never ONCE demanding men justify their existence. That I'm willing to call you out on your misogynistic double standard doesn't mean I can't see your logic. I see your logic, and I think it's CRAP.
Let me turn your "logic" around on you: So what if I can be a guy? What does that add to the game? Nothing . Therefor, there's no reason for the character to be male.
Take Final Fantasy 7. There is no benefit to Final Fantasy 7 that Cloud Strife is male rather than female. There is nothing that the game can do in FF7 with a male Cloud that could not be done with a female Cloud. It doesn't discuss "men's issues" or anything male-specific for Cloud's character There's nothing that him being male adds to the game. So using your logic, he shouldn't be male.
Probably because I think Men are automatically in because the Designers are usually male and they usually throw in a male because thats who they can identify as.
I am saying they should go the extra mile.
They can simply share a narrative through mechanics.
IF you fail to see that logic I say that is your own fault.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/16 17:34:36
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I made his same argument at some point as well, but I'm going to reverse a little and say that "it depends". If you want something rooted somewhat in the real world, then yes, and you should probably strive for some strain of believability. If you're going for dark and gritty, yeah, oppression could exist in the forms of many -isms, not that everyone would need to subscribe to such things, and there should be a least a few people fiercely opposed to it.
Otherwise, for a fantastical enough world, I don't think it would be hard to attain some sort of otherworld things where the genders ARE truly equal, or even some sort of matriarchy at work.
By simply having characters that oppose the status quo set by the universe is actually addressing the issue the world-builder is setting forward. If females are being oppressed in a setting, then having a group that fiercely opposes it would be addressing the gender issue (on top of creating drama, a relatable struggle, and a hook for the players if they choose to be a part of it)
Even in a fantastical world, I'd argue that players (and DM's) are still colored by our human experiences in the real world. IMO, a good world-builder will be able to take their player's experiences and personalities and create a frame for an outrageous world. Alice in Wonderland, for example, was considered pretty wacky, which is the point. We're so used to trying to create logical reasons for certain things existing or acting a particular way, and Wonderland opposes those thought processes.
I'm not saying that a fantastical world can't be done well, I just believe that the distinction between a well constructed setting, and a VERY well constructed setting, is being able blend and address our own human experiences into the setting / narrative.
Actions define a person.
2014/09/16 17:35:53
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
If you refuse to see how assuming women should have to justify our existence while men should not is a massive double standard, frankly, you're too blind to your own misogyny to have anything resembling logic to begin with.
You said it yourself-- you assume male is default, and you have no objections to that. You've never raised an objection, in fact, you enforce it by saying women should only exist if we can justify our existence.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/16 17:36:50
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/16 17:36:51
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: So what? So what I can be female? What does that add to the game? If I am a woman do you really think a brawny man is going to treat my like a male guy? No not exactly. If at all they won't treat me the same.
If your game involves just running around killing tons of demons/aliens, like in
Spoiler:
or in
Spoiler:
or in
Spoiler:
or in
Spoiler:
or in tons of other games, how does it matter?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote: Probably because I think Men are automatically in because the Designers are usually male and they usually throw in a male because thats who they can identify as.
And you do not see the problem with that? Namely that for the very same reason, it makes it harder for female player to identify with the character?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/16 18:23:25
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/16 17:40:00
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: So what? So what I can be female? What does that add to the game? If I am a woman do you really think a brawny man is going to treat my like a male guy? No not exactly. If at all they won't treat me the same.
If your game involves just running around killing tons of demons/aliens, like in
or in
or in
or in
or in tons of other games, how does it matter?
WE are talking about RPGs or open world games.
There it doesn't matter you can be a female, but they should at the very least recognize you as a female.
Spoiler:
And you do not see the problem with that? Namely that for the very same reason, it makes it harder for female player to identify with the character?
Does no one read my comments? And you know think?
Do you just respond and say oh Misogynist!
Misogynist! Look he's a misogynist because he thinks it is misrepresentation to have women in the game and not to have other characters identify the female as a female.
Or wait is he pointing out the fact that it happens in this society and he is merely thinking overall and not approaching it in a sexist manner. Maybe he is pointing out the fact that human beings react to different genders and that should be the case in all games. Ever since most designers are male that lead teams and they usually write male characters first and think about females second. Maybe he is pointing that out?
"NAHHHH" EDITED BY REDS8N
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/09/16 17:58:02
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/16 17:40:20
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/16 17:40:34
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I am saying, either allow for gender customization, or use the SBMC way to determine your characters gender.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/16 17:44:16
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I have no idea what you are talking about, AC. Like, really.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/16 17:45:44
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: I think because not all things that affect males can happen to females.
Games with those things are pretty damn rare. They will just fall into the fixed gender category.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/16 17:57:38
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
To be honest? In a game world, there is not a single situation that men and women cannot both experience. Given magic or technology, even motherhood-- the only thing that men and women cannot mutually experience or simulate in the real workd given modern technology (and I'm fairly certain we're working on that)-- could be simulated enough that there's no reasonable difference.
If you want games to take on social issues more, you're going about it in a really backwards ass way. By demanding that men be default and women only exist if we can justify our existence, you're just arguing for the continuation of the status quo.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/16 18:01:54
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: There is no benefit to Final Fantasy 7 that Cloud Strife is male rather than female.
Completely disagree. Like it or not, manhood implicates different meaning than womanhood. Cloud tries (and fails) to "be a man" in a conventional sense. That is a big part of his character.
If gender was actually so interchangeable then there would be no point in arguing that there should be more women characters because all it would amount to is "female skins." This in turn is about as significant as arguing that devs should use the color orange more often.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/16 18:02:27
Melissia wrote: To be honest? In a game world, there is not a single situation that men and women cannot both experience. Given magic or technology, even motherhood-- the only thing that men and women cannot mutually experience or simulate in the real workd given modern technology (and I'm fairly certain we're working on that)-- could be simulated enough that there's no reasonable difference.
If you want games to take on social issues more, you're going about it in a really backwards ass way. By demanding that men be default and women only exist if we can justify our existence, you're just arguing for the continuation of the status quo.
No I am arguing for change, so that way it promotes it through good behavior. Showing who is more admirable and more heroic. If we show someone bad who is a misgoynist or evil and cast them into a bad light, and show this is bad don't do that. It would slowly start to change peoples minds to do good instead of be against women.
It would make people think.
It would make people think about how they treat women, because how poorly they are being treated. That right then would make a world of a difference. It wouldn't make people want to do that.
But at some point in the game I would switch the roles, make it so men would be treated like women, you know a one time event.
Make it creepy and atmosphereic and boom you got a point to point out to the general public and have fourth wall bending.
It should be a point that is hammered home onto players. You can't just say lets add a gender customization, because what else does that add other than a feature, it doesn't say anything it's just a feature thrown in. It doesn't help with representation it was thrown in without a second thought, and uses them same features as a male.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/16 18:03:53
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: There is no benefit to Final Fantasy 7 that Cloud Strife is male rather than female.
Completely disagree. Like or not, manhood implicates different meaning than womanhood. Cloud tries (and fails) to "be a man" in a conventional sense. That is a big part of his character.
While I never got this insinuation at all when I played FF7, you're kind of agreeing with the point I was making in that post, that Asherian's argument was crap, because the argument you responded to was just a parody of his flipped around.
Except... you're not. You're still working on the assumption of male default, women only sometimes.
Whether or not you intend to, that's the argument you're pushing forth.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote: You can't just say lets add a gender customization, because what else does that add other than a feature, it doesn't say anything it's just a feature thrown in. It doesn't help with representation it was thrown in without a second thought, and uses them same features as a male.
Also? Yes I fething can.
I enjoy games more just playing as a woman character even if there is no substantial story change. Therefor, I can demand it, because I play games for MY enjoyment. Not for yours.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/09/16 18:07:30
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/16 18:08:30
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: you're kind of agreeing with the point I was making in that post, that Asherian's argument was crap, because the argument you responded to was just a parody of his flipped around
Suits me.
But to be clear, I am saying that whether a character is a man or a woman or something else can be very important.
To me, FemShep is not really that positive of a development.
Melissia wrote: There is no benefit to Final Fantasy 7 that Cloud Strife is male rather than female.
Completely disagree. Like or not, manhood implicates different meaning than womanhood. Cloud tries (and fails) to "be a man" in a conventional sense. That is a big part of his character.
While I never got this insinuation at all when I played FF7, you're kind of agreeing with the point I was making in that post, that Asherian's argument was crap, because the argument you responded to was just a parody of his flipped around.
Except... you're not. You're still working on the assumption of male default, women only sometimes.
Whether or not you intend to, that's the argument you're pushing forth.
No its not you always get caught up like two words, and don't read the whole picture.
Read it like you would a whole canvas. You absorb the whole canvas. What do you see?
What is his point?
My points are irregular and I raise up several points and counter arguments.
I am merely saying that if you make females and males so interchangeable there is no point to having either. That is my whole point. There is no point in saying justifying males. Why can't we have transgender folks?
Why can't we have that? Why can't we have more representation of women, i think they should all be justifiable and they should address the gender and societal pressures and how they react to a situation.
Also? Yes I fething can.
I enjoy games more just playing as a woman character even if there is no substantial story change. Therefor, I can demand it, because I play games for MY enjoyment. Not for yours.
But its not the step in the right direction it doesn't show people in the right light. Its just a throw away. saying oh we added a female skin that you can play as?
What does that add to it? Nothing its just a throw away. It doesn't help the game it doesn't help the image of the game. It doesn't help gaming as a whole.
I am looking at it long term and what it says about games.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/16 18:10:22
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/16 18:10:17
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Manchu wrote: To me, FemShep is not really that positive of a development.
I think FemShep is a positive aspect. Because FemShep is better than there being no option at all and all the characters being male because "you have to justify women existing otherwise assume male"-- the very attitude that Asherian is advocating for.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote: I am merely saying that if you make females and males so interchangeable there is no point to having either.
There is a point-- the enjoyment of the players.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/16 18:11:20
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/16 18:11:51
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: I am merely saying that if you make females and males so interchangeable there is no point to having either.
This is closer to what I am arguing, at least regarding character-driven games like Red Dead Redemption.
In games where the player "generates" the character (e.g., Skyrim), however, I think being able to choose to play a woman character is not only important but pretty much should be standard.
Arkham City made it creepy to play Catwoman. I don't think that made it a better game.
Some people play games for fantasy. Do I really wish to play a game that reminds me of the ick that some have to deal with IRL? Being able to play as a woman in a game can be just cosmetic. And that's ok.
2014/09/16 18:12:32
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
When the alternative is the "exclude women unless women can justify our existence" you've advocated, yes, it is a step in the right direction.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/16 18:12:35
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Manchu wrote: To me, FemShep is not really that positive of a development.
I think FemShep is a positive aspect. Because FemShep is better than there being no option at all and all the characters being male because "you have to justify women existing otherwise assume male"-- the very attitude that Asherian is advocating for.
She is a positive development but its not like it is a huge push. It is in the right direction but it doesn't help the cause or gamers as a whole.
IF you want to add something like a female skin thats fine, but you need to address them like a female would be.
Woman are talked to differently and that has to be shown. You can't have Fill in pronoun here and just expect it to work. It doesn't help. I felt awkward when I played Femshepherd because they were only treating me like a man. Not as a woman.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/16 18:14:24
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: I felt awkward when I played Femshepherd because they were only treating me like a man. Not as a woman.
I rather liked it. It was quite empowering compared to the norm.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/16 18:14:40
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
AdeptSister wrote: Arkham City made it creepy to play Catwoman. I don't think that made it a better game.
Some people play games for fantasy. Do I really wish to play a game that reminds me of the ick that some have to deal with IRL? Being able to play as a woman in a game can be just cosmetic. And that's ok.
Why not? I didn't find it distasteful. Lets also remind ourselves those are criminals, the worst of the worst.
Thats not sexist. That is a criminal saying those things. Is it wrong for the designer to make you feel creeped out?
To make you think? No. Its not!
Games are not supposed to always be an escapism fantasy.
I think people need to learn that sooner than later.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/16 18:15:16
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: all the characters being male because "you have to justify women existing otherwise assume male"
Whether or not you can play a female-skinned Shepherd has nothing to do with whether there can be any other female characters. As I have argued before, hiring a woman to read a script written for a man is not the same thing as writing a female character. Ideally, Mass Effect would have been playable by two characters rather than a reskinnable male character. I am sure that kind of expense would simply bounce off the minds of EA execs who already believe women are just men with boobs and vaginas instead of penises anyway.
"She's a woman character therefor let's insinuate she's going to get raped every five minutes yeah this is a great idea let's roll with it!"
Yeah, that's distasteful.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/16 18:15:50
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: I felt awkward when I played Femshepherd because they were only treating me like a man. Not as a woman.
I rather liked it. It was quite empowering compared to the norm.
I would agree, but there are certain things that didn't make sense as a guy to hear another guy say to a girl. Would you address a female in perfect ways. That seems a little off to me. Like something is going on.
That didn't seem right and it actually threw me out of the experience.
Melissia wrote: all the characters being male because "you have to justify women existing otherwise assume male"
Whether or not you can play a female-skinned Shepherd has nothing to do with whether there can be any other female characters. As I have argued before, hiring a woman to read a script written for a man is not the same thing as writing a female character. Ideally, Mass Effect would have been playable by two characters rather than a reskinnable male character. I am sure that kind of expense would simply bounce off the minds of EA execs who already believe women are just men with boobs and vaginas instead of penises anyway.
Hahha couldn't of said it any better.
They need to be two different people. Shepherd would be different than a male shepherd. That is not saying the femshepherd would be a different person, but they would react differently to situations. Genders react differently to certain situations. And they act differently.
A male ENTJ and a female ENTJ do not act the same way. They react to certain situations different. It is just their genders playing a role as well as societal pressures.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/16 18:18:39
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/16 18:16:09
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I just was playing as FemShep for the first time in ME1, and while "accurate," having to deal with the creep Harkin seriously challenged my Paragon rating...
