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 Chongara wrote:

 cyphersbootlick wrote:
now think about the stereotypical man you think women find attractive.

I'm thinking stuff like this:

Spoiler:

[img]http://i.imgur.com/mDKVi.jpg
[/img]

Certainly not the muscle-bound manly-men of gaming and comics. Like not at all:

Spoiler:

This:



or this


or this


or this

as I already said I didn't necessarily mean it was sexualised for women im saying that these fantasies are overlooked by those who see only the sexualisation of women. note also I said stereotype, I.e. it is not a valid example and is instead drawn upon by experiences from the media

 cyphersbootlick wrote:
my apologies for not explaining myself what I meant is that they are made this way as a male "power fantasy" and yet this tends to be ignored in favour of the fantasies female sexualisation stems from.

Well, you clearly spoke about sexualization. Power fantasy is not sexualization. Male characters are usually not sexualized.
Also, you kind of explicitly wrote “now think about the stereotypical man you think women find attractive.”…


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cyphersbootlick wrote:
im saying that these fantasies are overlooked by those who see only the sexualisation of women.

Because why would feminists say that power fantasy are bad or hurtful, really? Most of them are actually calling for female characters to also become power fantasies rather than sexualized cheesecake.

18% out of the $200 million gross profit is $36 million bucks.

Obviously, not all of the 18% would not have purchased ME3 if they did not have the option to play a FemShep, but even if just every tenth customer of those that rolled a female Shepard would have said "nah" that would have still been $3.6 million less.

So yeah, I have a feeling that the investment did pay off. It's kind of evident in how BioWare began marketing FemShep with posters and figures.

Sigvatr wrote:When a genre / game is largely dominated by a certain demographic and another potential demographic is neglible, then the entire effort is uneconomical and should be scrapped.

Or perhaps you could try to increase the demographic by making games more inclusive.

Really, it's like years ago people being like "lol, comics are for children". Suddenly, manga.

Melissia wrote:Regardless, ME3 did kind of bother me for a different reason-- basically, they depicted every matriarchal or woman-only race to be politically incompetent when the chips are down, while the male-only ones were ready and willing to fight.

I didn't get that vibe at all. Asari in particular I would consider extremely skilled in negotiations, based on how it was them who organised the entire Citadel Council and the treaty region. Some individuals who allow their actions to be guided by bias/thirst for power/whatever for the sake of a currently ongoing narration do not negate the history of an entire species.

What male-only race was there, anyways, apart from (effectively) the krogan? And they are certainly not what I'd consider "politically competent"...

cyphersbootlick wrote:E.g. The gears from gears of war. I mean come on, extremely large muscled men being all masculine and grouchy with gravel for vocal chords. now think about the stereotypical man you think women find attractive.
Even better, just look at every space marine ever or what about all the male super heroes in Western comics? women aren't the only ones sexualised

The purpose of all of those designs are to appeal to a male demographic. Women are made pretty and attractive to appeal to the base urges of a male consumer, whilst the men are made strong and powerful to appeal to the power fantasies of a male consumer, and underline his role (or that of his gender) as a "mover and shaker" in the setting.

The Turians are an openly patriarchal society (their leader is even called the Patriarch) and I don't think its until ME3's DLC that a female Turian is even seen.

I do get what she means about the Asari though. They basically had something that should have provided them foreknowledge of the Reapers, among other things, and not only did they not warn anyone, they didn't even prepare themselves. When the Reapers come, the Asari basically do little, if anything, to fight them other than retreat to Thessia. The Turians and the Krogans both pledge troops to fight the Reapers on Earth (the Krogans even gamble their entire species in exchange).

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 cyphersbootlick wrote:
my apologies for not explaining myself what I meant is that they are made this way as a male "power fantasy" and yet this tends to be ignored in favour of the fantasies female sexualisation stems from.

Well, you clearly spoke about sexualization. Power fantasy is not sexualization. Male characters are usually not sexualized.
Also, you kind of explicitly wrote “now think about the stereotypical man you think women find attractive.”…


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cyphersbootlick wrote:
im saying that these fantasies are overlooked by those who see only the sexualisation of women.

Because why would feminists say that power fantasy are bad or hurtful, really? Most of them are actually calling for female characters to also become power fantasies rather than sexualized cheesecake.

Again i apologise, if i have caused any offense then doubly so. I dont always communicate so well i must admit i blended the two together somewhat. I also meant from a male perspective when i said stereotypical and i meant it in all meanings of the word including its voracious lack of validity and reliability.

 Lynata wrote:
Really, it's like years ago people being like "lol, comics are for children". Suddenly, manga.

Well, we are Europeans, and I am pretty sure it was different in the U.S.A.
But certainly here in France, comics are almost non-existent, most people only knows the superheroes thanks to movies, and manga are extremely popular, notably among girls as well as boys.


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 cyphersbootlick wrote:
Again i apologise, if i have caused any offense then doubly so.

No need to apologize. But do you understand why feminists do no complain about it, and why they have no reason to?

One of the ironies of manga in the west is that most of the Manga we read, despite being considered more mature, is children's series'. Most adult oriented manga never makes out of Japan.

I am not sure what you mean. By adult-oriented, are you speaking about manga's like A distant neighborhood? Or adult-oriented as in pornographic, even though those are I guess most of the time not exactly what I would call mature?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am not sure what you mean. Are you speaking about manga's like A distant neighborhood?

I mean Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball, and Naruto etc. These series if made in the US would be PG-13 at the least (some aspects of Sailor Moon would get the series an R rating) but despite that they're openly sold as children series here and in Japan. They contain levels of violence no western children's series would ever feature. Sometimes they surpass American comics in this respect. Sailor Moon, especially later on, contains generous amounts of "as you can tell in this scene they just finished making love."

Some Seinen series make it here; Black Lagoon, Hellsing, Sekirei for example, but these series tend to only be popular with enthusiasts, and don't make it to the mainstream like Bleach, which includes;



Good luck finding anything on that level in a children's series in the US (granted, I've seen Wakfu, and I know your French types don't shy away from rather gratuitous fan service ). But while Bleach is a series directed at children 8-12 in Japan, it only airs at min-night in the US on Adult Swim.

 cyphersbootlick wrote:
what I find interesting is that people, feminists especially, are quick to notice any form of sexualisation of female characters and yet not males.

E.g. The gears from gears of war. I mean come on, extremely large muscled men being all masculine and grouchy with gravel for vocal chords. now think about the stereotypical man you think women find attractive.

Even better, just look at every space marine ever or what about all the male super heroes in Western comics? women aren't the only ones sexualised

The hyper macho style of Gears of War is a thing, It's not really done for the women though. It's done for the men.

LordofHats wrote:The Turians and the Krogans both pledge troops to fight the Reapers on Earth (the Krogans even gamble their entire species in exchange).

The asari do so as well - at least they did in my game. I saw several Commandos in various cutscenes fight and die in the final mission. Also: http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/War_Assets/Asari

As for the prothean beacon, it's important to consider that it is a "dirty secret" that must not be revealed even to fellow asari, and much less to anyone else, as it affects their galactic reputation and even their very religion. So the species as a whole is innocent to begin with - it's a small caste of confidants that have passed this knowledge on from generation to long-living generation, most likely carefully picked by their predecessors and sworn never to reveal this in order to maintain the status quo. I don't consider this unique to that species, and it's certainly a popular scheme for human governments in a lot of fiction, too. MJ12, anyone?

So it must have actually been a pretty big step for the asari Councilor to give up knowledge of this relic - if she actually was privy to this knowledge all the time, instead of revealing it as soon as it was brought to her attention.

Yeah everyone gives assets, but in cut scenes the Asari and Salarians both say they can't help (even though they give assets anyway). The Turians and the Krogan on the other hand fully commit to helping fighting the Reapers at Earth once you do some favors for them. If I remember right, the only assistance the Asari councilor commits to is giving access to the beacon.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 cyphersbootlick wrote:
what I find interesting is that people, feminists especially, are quick to notice any form of sexualisation of female characters and yet not males.

E.g. The gears from gears of war. I mean come on, extremely large muscled men being all masculine and grouchy with gravel for vocal chords. now think about the stereotypical man you think women find attractive.

Even better, just look at every space marine ever or what about all the male super heroes in Western comics? women aren't the only ones sexualised

http://www.shortpacked.com/2011/comic/book-13/05-the-death-of-snkrs/falseequivalence/

The perfect rebuttal to that link:

 Melissia wrote:
I got on it,but I've kind of always liked Hale.

Regardless, ME3 did kind of bother me for a different reason-- basically, they depicted every matriarchal or woman-only race to be politically incompetent when the chips are down, while the male-only ones were ready and willing to fight.

Salarians (matriarchal) were total dicks, and Asari were basically denialists whose government was unwilling to fight, even if individual Salarians (the STG) and Asari (Aethyta and Aria) were different-- compare that to Krogan or Turian, patriarchal societies where they were willing to cooperate early on given reasonable favors.

Hell, even the egalitarian race of Quarians was depicted as just trying to take advantage of the situation without really caring for the greater whole, with the women leaders being depicted as either amoral donkey-caves or generally moral but having no real pull on their government-- which is generally how women leaders are depicted in any media really.

It... was some very unfortunate implications that I doubt the writers really thought very carefully about. Can't we get some more variety in how women leaders are depicted rather than just either virgin/noble/good or whore/greedy/evil? At least Aria was reasonable, mind you... but she wasn't really much of a leader to begin with.

I think part of this is that the female lead races are less military oriented then the male lead ones. (Ya that can be an issue all in itself.) Masseffect has always kind of had a undertone of aggressive militarily is good. It leaks out of the setting, gameplay, and main character.

LordofHats wrote:Yeah everyone gives assets, but in cut scenes the Asari and Salarians both say they can't help (even though they give assets anyway). The Turians and the Krogan on the other hand fully commit to helping fighting the Reapers at Earth once you do some favors for them. If I remember right, the only assistance the Asari councilor commits to is giving access to the beacon.

Isn't that more because of both the asari and the salarians having rather small and very specialised militaries in general, and thus finding it hard to spare anyone when their own world get overrun?

It's been quite some time since I played it, though, so I cannot remember all the dialogues. I only remember that I did have asari troops on the ground during the final fight, so someone must have provided them. Maybe they changed their minds?

nomotog wrote:I think part of this is that the female lead races are less military oriented then the male lead ones

For the salarians that may be true, but Asari Commandos are held in respect even by the turians - that's gotta say something. Plus, it seems to be a popular profession for asari in their maiden stage to play merc for a hundred years or so (apparently the others become dancers ).

Unless you are implying that it's just the leadership that favours a less aggressive approach, and that the Huntresses are more like a separate society, akin to the Justicars - meaning that the politicians prevent them from deploying, even if they feel they should. Hmmh.

 Lynata wrote:
Isn't that more because of both the asari and the salarians having rather small and very specialised militaries in general, and thus finding it hard to spare anyone when their own world get overrun?

Yeah, but Mel was talking about the unfortunate implications, which exist regardless of how sensible the in universe justifications are.

Maybe they changed their minds?

Liara, Samara, and some other Asari both help you acquire help from the Asari throughout the game, and some stuff just happens regardless of what was said in the cut scenes.

 LordofHats wrote:
They contain levels of violence no western children's series would ever feature.

Let me introduce you to “Chainsaws, bazookas and characters dressed up as nazis” Kaeloo. Certainly in a more light-hearted fashion than Dragon Ball Z, but you will still get zombies mass amputation via chainsaw in that show. I should mention we had Hokuto No Ken as a child series over here, while it was considered for teenagers in Japan, so this was the opposite of what you described . But back then, things were… special.

 LordofHats wrote:
Some Seinen series make it here; Black Lagoon, Hellsing, Sekirei for example

Are those adults, or more late teenagers?

 LordofHats wrote:
(granted, I've seen Wakfu, and I know your French types don't shy away from rather gratuitous fan service )

Wakfu? Never watched it, not sure how it is. Apparently, from press release, the audience is around 4-14 years old.
http://press.ankama.com/fr/communiques/1207-une-journee-totalement-wakfu-sur-france-televisions-et-une-operation-cross-gaming-inedite-pour-feter-la-fin-de-la-saison-1-le-5-juin-.html
Anyhow, if you want to see French animation Japanese-style, there is only this dominating everything else!

sirlynchmob wrote:
The perfect rebuttal to that link:

Cannot watch now, no sound, care to provide a summary?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
Some Seinen series make it here; Black Lagoon, Hellsing, Sekirei for example

Are those adults, or more late teenagers?

Seinen, and its female equivalent Josei, are marketed to the 18-35 age demographic and are basically R rated (though the publishers in Japan generally view demographics more dynamically than we do, and they know adults read the children's series the publish and children probably the adult ones as well).

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
The perfect rebuttal to that link:

Cannot watch now, no sound, care to provide a summary?

Ya lets not simply ost videos or links as a replacement for writing out your own response. Again this thread is about what you think, not what youtube videos think.

I can watch it now.
I went through 1:30, and then decided having a video with a voice reading something I can read, what, 5 time faster was clearly an elaborated way of trolling me by making me loose me time .
Text is great, use it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Text

Seriously guys, try this, it's really underrated.

Videos are fine in arguments, as long as they don't become the arguments.

People do always say the book is better

 Ashiraya wrote:
Seriously guys, try this, it's really underrated.

Okay, I listened to the section of the video relevant to the strip I had posted. I can sum it up in three words. Strawmaning, strawmaning, strawmaning.
Nothing about the comics is in any way addressed, or even alluded too. I mean, that guy goes on about shaving armpits and beard, how dumb must you be to think this is answering the comic in any way? Does this show that Batman, or any other superhero, was designed to be attractive to women? Nope. Does this show that if they were designed to be attractive to women, they would look like that? No. Does this shows that female characters in comics are not designed to be attractive to men? No. Does is address any of the point in the strip? No. Was this video a total waste of time? Sure yes.

Just want to say anyone who reads my previous reply could you also look at the people who quoted me, i kinda wrote it poorly and came across as trying to say that they were made that way to appease women whereas i was trying to say that that kind of character tends to be overlooked in comparison to those of women.

Not sure it does. Like people have mentioned, Gears of War characters are usually male power fantasies. A lot of game protagonists have been. They can be macho (Marcus), Powerful (Kratos), Witty (Nathan Drake), or many other types. There has been a lot of talk about that.

Women characters have the unfortunate tendency to be written/created for titillation of a heterosexual male. Which by its self is alright, but becomes annoying when you see it everywhere.

An example of a male character created for heterosexual women may be Vaan from FF, but since I did not play it, I might be totally wrong. I do know there was a lot of hate directed towards his design, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Oh course this may apply to FF XV as well. )

 AdeptSister wrote:

An example of a male character created for heterosexual women may be Vaan from FF, but since I did not play it, I might be totally wrong. I do know there was a lot of hate directed towards his design, though.

I had to look up Vaan. Other than the bare chest, the character seems pretty feminine as far as physical features.

...women are into that?

 daedalus wrote:

 AdeptSister wrote:

An example of a male character created for heterosexual women may be Vaan from FF, but since I did not play it, I might be totally wrong. I do know there was a lot of hate directed towards his design, though.

I had to look up Vaan. Other than the bare chest, the character seems pretty feminine as far as physical features.

...women are into that?

Japanese Women are, apparently.
Hence Bishounens.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Japanese Women are, apparently.
Hence Bishounens.

I'm not writing Japanese culture off, but I'd like to call attention to Exhibit A:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Japanese Women are, apparently.
Hence Bishounens.

Also see Malus' post on page 51.

daedalus wrote:I'm not writing Japanese culture off, but I'd like to call attention to Exhibit A:

Of course, it's also debatable whether a cultural focus on sex is really that much worse than the cultural focus on violence that seems common in western society these days...

 Lynata wrote:
]Of course, it's also debatable whether a cultural focus on sex is really that much worse than the cultural focus on violence that seems common in western society these days...

Well, now I want to see a vending machine that dispenses handguns.