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2014/09/29 22:33:41
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
LordofHats wrote: Progress would be more convincing without stories like how Rockstar had to fight tooth and nail to get a ten year old girl (who is the center of the story) on the box art. The box art, of all things.
'Injustice: -Gods Among Us' had a similar problem IIRC. Fighting to get Wonder Woman on the box because marketing thought she would drive sales down.
There was also another game, ('Remember Me' I think) the dev spent a lot of time trying to find a studio/publisher for the game, but over and over again he got "We're very interested, but can you change the protagonist's gender?"
Look, many of the problems with how women are represented in games is not a product of creators simply expressing their (rightful) artistic freedom, it is, in fact the opposite. Devs are being told; "No, you can't do that, our audience/target demographic wont like it."
LordofHats wrote: Progress would be more convincing without stories like how Rockstar had to fight tooth and nail to get a ten year old girl (who is the center of the story) on the box art. The box art, of all things.
'Injustice: -Gods Among Us' had a similar problem IIRC. Fighting to get Wonder Woman on the box because marketing thought she would drive sales down.
There was also another game, ('Remember Me' I think) the dev spent a lot of time trying to find a studio/publisher for the game, but over and over again he got "We're very interested, but can you change the protagonist's gender?"
Look, many of the problems with how women are represented in games is not a product of creators simply expressing their (rightful) artistic freedom, it is, in fact the opposite. Devs are being told; "No, you can't do that, our audience/target demographic wont like it."
I think I have made that point before.
I think more people who join the publishing scene who are into games and understand that innovation in this industry breeds more sales will understand.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/29 22:37:13
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Remember, things are not black/white or all-or-nothing.. No one is saying there has not been any progress. Just that it's not as much as they would like. Some legacies hold on.
2014/09/29 22:39:07
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
AdeptSister wrote: Remember, things are not black/white or all-or-nothing.. No one is saying there has not been any progress. Just that it's not as much as they would like. Some legacies hold on.
Yes but acknowledging it should happen. And so far some have not. There are tons of games that are coming out that are like that. They do represent women in a positive light.
WE have games dealing with sensitive subjects.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/29 22:41:24
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Pendix wrote: 'Injustice: -Gods Among Us' had a similar problem IIRC. Fighting to get Wonder Woman on the box because marketing thought she would drive sales down.
Wonder Woman? Like the third biggest DC hero?
(Or at least, that is apparently what they thought when they made DCUO)
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/29 22:43:17
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Pendix wrote: 'Injustice: -Gods Among Us' had a similar problem IIRC. Fighting to get Wonder Woman on the box because marketing thought she would drive sales down.
Wonder Woman? Like the third biggest DC hero?
(Or at least, that is apparently what they thought when they made DCUO)
Its the publisher or the PR group that think they know what is best for the game.
For example I got cautioned not to name my book The Bastard Descendant. Because it was seen as an insult.
I mean shesh group up people.
You want it to be what
The Illegimate Descendant?
Yeah that sounds appealing -.-
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/29 22:44:31
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
I do think things are going in the right direction. I think I've brought it up a couple of times before, but in Dragon Age 2, Aveline was a completely non-sexualised character with her own wishes and motivations throughout the 10 years the game lasted.
Yeah, the amount of... shall we say, guff, that 'The Last of Us' had to go through was terrible and yeah, rather shameful. However it managed to get through it all and was massively well received by pretty much everyone.
The trick I think, would be to build on that. Companies should be able to go to the publishers and say, "well, you were wrong about Last of Us. This one, with a female protagonist this time, might be the next smash hit."
2014/09/29 22:49:10
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Compel wrote: I do think things are going in the right direction. I think I've brought it up a couple of times before, but in Dragon Age 2, Aveline was a completely non-sexualised character with her own wishes and motivations throughout the 10 years the game lasted.
Yeah, the amount of... shall we say, guff, that 'The Last of Us' had to go through was terrible and yeah, rather shameful. However it managed to get through it all and was massively well received by pretty much everyone.
The trick I think, would be to build on that. Companies should be able to go to the publishers and say, "well, you were wrong about Last of Us. This one, with a female protagonist this time, might be the next smash hit."
Ha good luck.
The publishers sometimes only see it for the money, and they revenue they garner.
It is a problem that will keep happening.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/29 22:51:45
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Compel wrote: I do think things are going in the right direction. I think I've brought it up a couple of times before, but in Dragon Age 2, Aveline was a completely non-sexualised character with her own wishes and motivations throughout the 10 years the game lasted.
American McGee's Alice had a completely non-sexualized main character 14 years ago. And I am pretty sure we could go further than that.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/29 22:52:40
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Well, you'd know better than me but... It stands to reason that, if (hah, IF) a company does only see it for the money, and The Last of Us made money and it provides an opportunity for the publishers to get the leg up on a new IP that another publisher doesn't.
Then yeah, I can see this scenario happening. Eventually. - Risk avoidance as opposed to risk management and all that, after all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/29 22:54:00
2014/09/29 22:54:18
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
AdeptSister wrote: Remember, things are not black/white or all-or-nothing.. No one is saying there has not been any progress. Just that it's not as much as they would like. Some legacies hold on.
Yes but acknowledging it should happen. And so far some have not. There are tons of games that are coming out that are like that. They do represent women in a positive light.
WE have games dealing with sensitive subjects.
I am confused by your first sentence. Could you please expand.
Also, "tons of games" seems...excessive. There are more options, sure. But there are also a large amount that support the status quo.
Also while publishers have some blame, designer contribute to sexualization culture well. Skullgirls was made for a specific audience (hardcore fighting game enthusiasts who like some "fan service"). The designers were not trying to be inclusive, which is their right. They made the game they wanted to play. But creating things like DoA and Skullgirls are limiting their games to a smaller audience.
2014/09/29 23:07:04
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Asherian Command wrote: I think more people who join the publishing scene who are into games and understand that innovation in this industry breeds more sales will understand.
Honestly; I really don't think that more women in marketing/publishing will be enough. There will need to be a shift in perception and culture. As long as the target demographic is still "14 year old boys" it wouldn't matter if every member of staff, from CEO to janitor was a woman, the game would still have to bend to that idea of what the 'audience' wants. It's why we need discussions like this, and people willing to get up and let their preferences be known, and pundits calling companies out on it. We need to break the idea that Gamers are just "14-year-old-boys-&-the-shrill-manchildren-who-act-like-them". We need to let the people in the positions of power, the people who hold the purse strings know that the audicnce can be so much larger, so much broader, that there is real value in games that don't just pander to the lowest common denominator, hell, we need to break the idea of what that denominator even is.
And until we do that, change will slow and easily reversed.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Wonder Woman? Like the third biggest DC hero?
(Or at least, that is apparently what they thought when they made DCUO)
Yup. Remember if you are a fan of fight games and comic books, Marketing knows that you are also terrified of women.
AdeptSister wrote: Remember, things are not black/white or all-or-nothing.. No one is saying there has not been any progress. Just that it's not as much as they would like. Some legacies hold on.
Yes but acknowledging it should happen. And so far some have not. There are tons of games that are coming out that are like that. They do represent women in a positive light.
WE have games dealing with sensitive subjects.
I am confused by your first sentence. Could you please expand.
Also, "tons of games" seems...excessive. There are more options, sure. But there are also a large amount that support the status quo.
Also while publishers have some blame, designer contribute to sexualization culture well. Skullgirls was made for a specific audience (hardcore fighting game enthusiasts who like some "fan service"). The designers were not trying to be inclusive, which is their right. They made the game they wanted to play. But creating things like DoA and Skullgirls are limiting their games to a smaller audience.
I meant that some users have not used examples of games that can demean their message they are talking about.
Talking about the opposition and confirming its legitimacy.
Skullgirls wasn't really as sexualized. I saw it more as animeaish that happens in japan. its what japan does too garner interest.
I mean look at the television show Black Lagoon.
This Revy the main female in the series. She wears sexy things but that is just what she is. But she is absolutely terrifying,
Does it mean she is pandering to a large audience? Maybe but then you have to think.
Does it fit the setting? Yes. Yes it does.
The problem is not the people who pander to a smaller audience those games are quite rare.
But games that apply to a larger audience and do mis-justice to women are a big problem. Those that make light of the material and do not research it well. Those are bigger issues.
I think we need to add more female characters overall and make them better. But I think pandering to a smaller audience games should not be changed.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/29 23:40:04
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
LordofHats wrote: I think Nomo is pointing out that games have a unique position in that they put the player in the role of the actor. This gives things that happen in games a different spin than what happens in TV or books. It makes a lack of tact when it comes to certain subject matter all the more egregious.
Forcing the player to kill and eat a family is a thing. I'm not going to say you can't do that. More just that you need to be responsible when you do do it.
I'm genuinely not certain what you mean by that, or how you would do it.
Ya you have to have tact and a understanding of what your doing. It's not the kind of thing you want to do flippy because you are putting the player in a very uncomfortable position. That needs to be acknowledged and to payoff for the player. Like one game that dose the "Make player do something horrible" thing well is spec ops the line. It doesn't just have a shocking moment to shock, it draws that moment out examines it and uses it offer incite to the player. It's not just there for shocks shake.
AdeptSister wrote: Yep. The alien designer was well known for his use of sexual imagery.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's a very deep film.
Most horror films that are done right usually are.
The most famous horror game was silent hill 2.
Which its prevasive use of the pyramidhead.
It showed the characters sexuality.
It is about sexuality? I kind of think it's more about misogyny? James Sunderland sin isn't so much that he finds women sexually attractive, but that he doesn't care about them past how hot they are. At least that is my kind of take on it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/29 23:58:18
2014/09/29 23:58:53
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
It is about sexuality? I kind of think it's more about misogyny? James Sunderland sin isn't so much that he finds women sexually attractive, but that he doesn't care about them past how hot they are. At least that is my kind of take on it.
Its both.
It is up to interpretation.
Now how publishers never caught on to this. I will never know.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/29 23:59:28
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/30 01:08:54
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/30 01:11:48
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
"Relaxed" relative to what standard? I'm not sure the argument "it could have been worse" counts as an argument....
Like I said, they made the game they wanted. Which is fine. But it is sexualized.
I agree that it was aimed for a small audience and it is not supposed to be representative of a majority of games, but unfortunately certain aspects are representative of gaming in general.
2014/09/30 01:58:45
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
AdeptSister wrote: "Relaxed" relative to what standard? I'm not sure the argument "it could have been worse" counts as an argument....
Like I said, they made the game they wanted. Which is fine. But it is sexualized.
I agree that it was aimed for a small audience and it is not supposed to be representative of a majority of games, but unfortunately certain aspects are representative of gaming in general.
I would disagree the fact is that women in the game are shown to be powerful.
Hell the majority of playable characters are women.
Also just checked it up...
They are not made by that company.
Developer(s) Reverge Labs Lab Zero Games
Publisher(s) Autumn Games Konami (2012-2013) Marvelous (2013-present) CyberFront (Japan)
WHOOPS
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/30 02:09:54
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/30 02:12:27
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
What is your definition of sexualized, Ash? Because IMO, you can be both powerful and sexualized. The terms are not exclusive. There a few examples of such.
And I thought all the characters in Skullgirls were female. As that was a major point of the story.
2014/09/30 02:16:34
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
AdeptSister wrote: What is your definition of sexualized, Ash? Because IMO, you can be both powerful and sexualized. The terms are not exclusive. There a few examples of such.
And I thought all the characters in Skullgirls were female. As that was a major point of the story.
Sexualized =
That is sexualized.
this is not
Showing over a little bit of curvyness is not bad.
The skull girls are not as bad as people make them out to be.
I mean its a comicbook world. Did you expect any less?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/30 02:19:41
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/30 02:18:35
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Skull girls is alright. It is quite tamed. I mean the entire cast is female. They all come with different skins and colors.
And they are all fighters.
Some maybe sexualized to some degree, but I can only think of four that are like that.
It is not a bad thing to show off cleavage.
Sexualization is something that happens a lot and it happens in tons of games.
It is all about representation of the character on the top had a character and was more than a googly eyed sock puppet to the player then it wouldn't matter what they wore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/30 02:24:34
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/09/30 06:13:44
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Total Biscuit wrote:Perhaps one of the reasons why sites dont get taken seriously when they attempt to inject gender politics into articles about games, particularly reviews, is that their arguments are often provably false. This is a quote from the Verges article, which it claims is a "1000 hour review" of DOTA2.
"One of the artefacts of the game being designed by young males is in its presentation. Female characters tend to perform clichéd support roles while dressing in form-fitting costumes that seem to have shrunken in the wash. Most egregious for me is the case of Crystal Maiden, whose death animation involves a momentary glimpse of the character stripped down to her underwear. Maybe that’s an homage to Metroid, where a similar fate would befall Samus Aran, but it’s an unnecessary sexualization of a character that is made worse by its association with her death."
Now the facts. First lets address that female characters "tend to perform cliched support roles". Firstly this is factually wrong. Here is a list of the 17 female heroes in DOTA2 and their roles, as defined by DOTA2s own website:
This "tendency" to play cliched support roles is a total of 5 out of 17 heroes. Indeed there are far more male supports than there are female (but there are also far more male heroes in the game than female so that's to be expected). Indeed female heroes represent some of the most powerful carries in the game and are frequent top tier picks. In my personal opinion, the way that this statement is written is meant to imply that a support is somehow a weaker or lesser role than that of a carry, which is complete nonsense. Supports are vital and hold some of the most powerful abilities in the game that are crucial for getting ganks and changing the face of a team-fight. Maybe in other games the support was relegated to the role of healer and ward courier but in DOTA2, a game with very few actual healing abilities, supports have an array of powerful disables and extremely high damage nukes. Maybe I'm just reading too much into that sentence but it seems to be based on ignorance and factual inaccuracies. Now this statement.
"Most egregious for me is the case of Crystal Maiden, whose death animation involves a momentary glimpse of the character stripped down to her underwear. Maybe that’s an homage to Metroid, where a similar fate would befall Samus Aran, but it’s an unnecessary sexualization of a character that is made worse by its association with her death."
This is proveably false. It is not a deliberate implementation and is in fact an old bug, causing parts of the characters modular outfit (characters in DOTA wear items individually, which allows for visual customisation, rather than having complete "skins" like other games) to not display correctly. This Youtube video demonstrates the issue - link - you will notice her hair also disappears and she is rendered for a fraction of a second as bald. This also used to (and perhaps still?) happens with Lina every now and again. If this is the authors definition of "her underwear" then you're going to have to forgive me if I don't think that's much of an issue, since we don't live in the 1800s anymore. That's her underwear? That's three times more clothes than I'm wearing right now.
This sort of thing is why I also have problems with Anita Sarkessians videos. When she factually misrepresents games like Hitman by claiming the game is inviting you to violate the bodies of dead women, where in reality the game mechanically punishes you for doing so and the poses are simply a result of the rather dodgy havok physics engine implementation, you're gong to have to forgive me if I disagree with phrases such as "players are meant to derive a perverse pleasure from desecrating the bodies of unsuspecting virtual characters. It's a rush streaming from a carefully concocted mix of sexual arousal connected to the act of controlling and punishing representations of female sexuality".
Trying to have this discussion while basing your assertions on factual inaccuracies only succeeds in muddying the waters. You weaken your own argument with such logical leaps which are based on extremely shaky ground. Perhaps we should just stick to the facts and build our arguments from there, rather than coming up with our agenda and conclusions in advance and working backwards to try and prove our point, which will invariably lead to some cognitive and confirmation bias, cherry-picking and at worst, flagrant misrepresentation.
Asherian Command wrote: I mean the entire cast is female. They all come with different skins and colors.
And they are all fighters.
Just like in DoA Beach Volleyball .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/30 09:58:52
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
As long as I can't play a female character in really heavy armour (Space Marine+) without boobplate, mysteriously bare belly, unnecessarily slim design etc., there won't be true equality.
Ashiraya wrote: As long as I can't play a female character in really heavy armour (Space Marine+) without boobplate, mysteriously bare belly, unnecessarily slim design etc., there won't be true equality.
Gief my armour. >:c
Only if you give me a video game where you play as a man running about in High Heels, Fish Nets and Corset, while fighting zombie nazi T-Rexes with my bear hands. That is not a typo, btw. I quite literally mean bear hands.
It shall be known as Transsexual Transylvanian Rampage : Electric Booglaloo
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/30 10:13:43
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2014/09/30 11:18:39
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Why not? Sounds more interesting than the usual garbage vomited out by the industry as "AAA".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/30 11:25:27
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/09/30 13:41:52
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Heck, I said it before, I was happy with Anya in Gears of War 3. I count her advancement to front line fighter to be a great thing. And she actually looks sensible (in the context of the universe).
.
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~4100
~1660
