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0001/01/15 04:11:49
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Ashiraya wrote: I found the Sanguinary Guard funny because of the irony.
But I prefer appropriately androgynous armour; when you wear lots of metal the gender differences become hard to see.
I would agree but I think if we want people to be comfortable we should also have characters that don't wear the normal type of armor, like armor specifically made for them. (Like the rose knight picture, because it looks quite badass)
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/07 16:00:29
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Ashiraya wrote: I wouldn't mind a suit of 'Black Queen' armour.
Spoiler:
I have a character who is a female and she wears full leather armor. And wears her hood when scouting.
Then there is another woman who wears a suit of armor shaped to look like a bear. And it is absolutely terrifying. And she is married and has two kids, and she is a princess. She is fifteenth in line to the throne. But she doesn't really care. Good character.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/07 18:06:32
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
What specifically do you want to see changed, then?
I've explained this numerous times in this thread.
But if you insist on me reiterating (can't blame you with something like seventy pages to read through), I want games to stop lazily defaulting to male when writing characters (I have offered solutions on how to do this in an unbiased manner, in fact); I also desire for games to allow for more customization of the player character, especially (but not exclusively) RPGs and multiplayer-only or multiplayer-heavy games like most first-person shooters, two genres I'm more heavily invested in (but there's no reason that this could not be expanded to other genres; the RTS genre, for example, would need to do little more than to change pronouns when referring to "the commander", similar to how Stronghold 2's greeting changes to "Greetings, Lady Mel" when I enter my name at the start).
That's the topic I have focused on in this thread, and the topic that I find most important. The sexualization/sexuality in games topic I find to be a secondary (but still important) concern; certainly I believe developers need to stop focusing on sexuality as the only personality trait women have; the woman should be defined by what badass/good/evil/etc thing she does, not what she looks like-- that's just lazy and boring. A good step in that is to stop using cheap and lazy titillation tactics in character design in every single major release game, but that alone won't do everything that needs to be done.
I don't see much disagreeable with this, but I feel like that's because you're intentionally framing it in a limited way that doesn't represent what you actually want. If all you're asking for is more female characters and more customization where it's sensible, then sure I can get behind that. But what makes it suspect is the latter portion of your post, where you attack simple aesthetics. I don't want to see the Sorceress from Dragon's Crown or the HDD Neps be censored out of existence or stigmatized to eroge.
Go and check out the CYOA thread for some escapist fun
Kali wrote: I don't want to see the Sorceress from Dragon's Crown or the HDD Neps be […] stigmatized to eroge.
Why?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/07 18:44:15
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
So if you don't have barely covered tits shoved in your face every time you're looking at a female character, you instantly assume there's censorship going on?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/07 18:44:24
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Kali wrote: Because I like them and want development resources to support them,
There can be development resources spent on eroge.
Kali wrote: and because I do not want to be socially damaged by enjoying the things I like.
Then you should complain about how people should not be socially damaged for enjoying eroge, rather than complain that what you like is conflated with eroge, no ?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/07 19:01:03
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/07 19:22:04
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote:So if you don't have barely covered tits shoved in your face every time you're looking at a female character, you instantly assume there's censorship going on?
See it's statements like this that reveal your true intent. You don't simply want new things, you want to destroy those that are already present. You are campaigning against perceived evils rather than on the merits of your perceived goods.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:There can be development resources spent on eroge.
Right, and there should be, but that's not what I'm concerned about. These games clearly aren't eroge but according to the feminist paradigm they should be demonized as such.
Then you should complain about how people should not be socially damaged for enjoying eroge, rather than complain that what you like is conflated with eroge, no ?
I'm concerned with both.
Go and check out the CYOA thread for some escapist fun
Kali wrote: You don't simply want new things, you want to destroy those that are already present.
I haven't advocated for hte censorship of past video games, and if you insist on claiming that I have, you are a liar.
I have no patience for this sort of nonsense.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/07 20:20:49
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/07 19:34:56
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Kali wrote: These games clearly aren't eroge but according to the feminist paradigm they should be demonized as such.
These designs are clearly in between what belongs to porn games and to “normal” games. They ought to go to specific games rather than be mainstream. That is what they say. And, if there is no problem with porn games, there should be no problem with, well, let us call them pin-up games. They will just not be present in mainstream games along with mainstream characters.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/07 19:38:49
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: I haven't advocated for hte censorship of past video games, and if you insist on claiming that I have, you are a liar.
Only future ones, right?
This heavily reminds me of 'The Cafe' episode of Seinfeld
Jerry, fascinated by an empty and failing eclectic restaurant called "The Dream Café," offers his patronage to the restaurant, and convinces its owner, Babu Bhatt (Brian George), to restyle his menu and decor. He suggests that Babu make his restaurant the only authentic Pakistani eatery in the neighborhood. Unfortunately, the restaurant still lacks customers and Babu loses a lot of money. He becomes very upset with Jerry and blames him for causing his failure, yelling, "You're a very, very bad man!", waving his index finger.
The best of intentions, advice based on no business knowledge, leading to business failure a la Remember Me.
. . . which I can get behind. The AAA industry is dying anyway due to bloated budgets and unrealistic sales expectations, might as well see if a phoenix or two can rise from the ashes
So asking for additional content is censorship? Because I have asked for more future games to have character designs that appeal to me, not for ALL future games to tailor themselves specifically to my tastes and mine alone.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm now reminded of this:
AdeptSister wrote: I just want games that aren't so embarrassing to play due to their usage of women characters and design. Or that cling to certain image of their audience. I also like personalization of my PCs when appropriate.
But I would love to get to the time when feminism stops being used as a four letter word. Being as gamer and a feminist is not mutually exclusive. It's not "censorship" to ask for something new or ask for your hobby to be more inclusive. Why is this so vilified? Does removing sexualization really hurt a game experience for some people?
Largely because a lot folks would see your post and somehow interpret the words to mean this:
AdeptSister(Interpreted) wrote: I demand all games star only unappealing women. Anyone who wants to play games about something other than hypermasculine women are so embarrassing. They shouldn't play due to their attraction to women. I'm angry there are men in audience. I demand personalization of PCs in every game with the only options being minoirties.
I would love to get to the time when "Man" starts being used as a four letter word. Being a good person and a man is mutually exclusive. It's not "censorship" to ask for no men new or ask for your hobby to be more exclusive. Why is this so vilified? Does never allowing any sexualization and knowing how smarter I than you really hurt your fee-fees so much?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/07 19:59:12
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/07 20:30:32
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
So asking for additional content is censorship? Because I have asked for more future games to have character designs that appeal to me, not for ALL future games to tailor themselves specifically to my tastes and mine alone.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm now reminded of this:
AdeptSister wrote: I just want games that aren't so embarrassing to play due to their usage of women characters and design. Or that cling to certain image of their audience. I also like personalization of my PCs when appropriate.
But I would love to get to the time when feminism stops being used as a four letter word. Being as gamer and a feminist is not mutually exclusive. It's not "censorship" to ask for something new or ask for your hobby to be more inclusive. Why is this so vilified? Does removing sexualization really hurt a game experience for some people?
Largely because a lot folks would see your post and somehow interpret the words to mean this:
AdeptSister(Interpreted) wrote: I demand all games star only unappealing women. Anyone who wants to play games about something other than hypermasculine women are so embarrassing. They shouldn't play due to their attraction to women. I'm angry there are men in audience. I demand personalization of PCs in every game with the only options being minoirties.
I would love to get to the time when "Man" starts being used as a four letter word. Being a good person and a man is mutually exclusive. It's not "censorship" to ask for no men new or ask for your hobby to be more exclusive. Why is this so vilified? Does never allowing any sexualization and knowing how smarter I than you really hurt your fee-fees so much?
Yeah people misread things. I am not surprised.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
2014/10/07 20:44:22
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
AdeptSister wrote: I just want games that aren't so embarrassing to play due to their usage of women characters and design. Or that cling to certain image of their audience. I also like personalization of my PCs when appropriate.
But I would love to get to the time when feminism stops being used as a four letter word. Being as gamer and a feminist is not mutually exclusive. It's not "censorship" to ask for something new or ask for your hobby to be more inclusive. Why is this so vilified? Does removing sexualization really hurt a game experience for some people?
Well you have the choice of not playing that types of games, just like I choose to not play games that requires Origin.
Being inclusive isn't being vilified from what ive observed, its what comes next that is the hypocritical double standard that people react to, Its the claims of wanting equality but then demanding special treatment for female characters in the next breath, finally culminating in total oppression of female charactisation in appearance, personality followed by the constant denial of the gaming industry is improving. And this is the same pattern every single time this issue crops up.
Like all media gaming is not exempt from exaggeration, just like the worst soap show imaginable to the humblest of documentaries they are all exaggerated to make them more intresting.
So your first line sounds like "Deal with it or Leave." Which if I am misconstruing your statement, I apologize. But, you know that this reminds me of the arguments that are used against someone who complains about GW. People usually complain about something because they care.
And when did I say the gaming industry was not getting better? I think that most people agreed that it has. And "total oppression of female characterization?" What do you mean by this? I thought I was asking for greater characterization. Like using women differently in games instead of making them the same token "woman " role. What special treatment am I asking for over male characters? I just am hoping for the same character diversity for women as there are for men. No special treatment.
2014/10/07 21:16:43
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: So asking for additional content is censorship? Because I have asked for more future games to have character designs that appeal to me, not for ALL future games to tailor themselves specifically to my tastes and mine alone.
Your words, not mine. 'Past' video games. Sounds suspiciously specific, but I'll admit I didn't give you the benefit of the doubt.
Also, the situation in general reminded me of 'The Cafe' episode of Seinfeld, not you in particular.
I believe you when you say you want more video games produced with female protagonists that cater to your tastes, which is great. Your money is as good as anyone else's and you have a voice.
However as Kali pointed out:
That's the topic I have focused on in this thread, and the topic that I find most important. The sexualization/sexuality in games topic I find to be a secondary (but still important) concern; certainly I believe developers need to stop focusing on sexuality as the only personality trait women have; the woman should be defined by what badass/good/evil/etc thing she does, not what she looks like-- that's just lazy and boring. A good step in that is to stop using cheap and lazy titillation tactics in character design in every single major release game, but that alone won't do everything that needs to be done.
Smacks of "change these things I'm not the target audience of"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/07 21:19:15
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/07 21:23:53
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Melissia wrote: So asking for additional content is censorship? Because I have asked for more future games to have character designs that appeal to me, not for ALL future games to tailor themselves specifically to my tastes and mine alone.
Your words, not mine. 'Past' video games. Sounds suspiciously specific, but I'll admit I didn't give you the benefit of the doubt.
Also, the situation in general reminded me of 'The Cafe' episode of Seinfeld, not you in particular.
I believe you when you say you want more video games produced with female protagonists that cater to your tastes, which is great. Your money is as good as anyone else's and you have a voice.
However as Kali pointed out:
That's the topic I have focused on in this thread, and the topic that I find most important. The sexualization/sexuality in games topic I find to be a secondary (but still important) concern; certainly I believe developers need to stop focusing on sexuality as the only personality trait women have; the woman should be defined by what badass/good/evil/etc thing she does, not what she looks like-- that's just lazy and boring. A good step in that is to stop using cheap and lazy titillation tactics in character design in every single major release game, but that alone won't do everything that needs to be done.
Smacks of "change these things I'm not the target audience of"
You're really not supposed to go doing things after somebody has called out that you're going to do it. It makes them look very clever, or at minimum feel very smug.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/07 21:24:11
2014/10/07 21:23:59
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
Quote me then, where I stated I advocated censoring future games instead of asking for more games that match what I want.
(I'll save you the trouble and inform you that you will not be able to)
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2014/10/07 21:28:30
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/07 21:33:29
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/10/07 21:39:21
Subject: What problems do gamers have with how women are represented in games?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
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~4100
~1660
