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That is the biggest weakness against GK: Armor and AP2 weaponry. Combine those two and you have the GKs worst nightmare. Especially the Crimson Slaughter rules with Ectoplasma rules, tears GK to shreds if they don't prepare for it and if he is running what he is, he isn't prepared for it. The Land Raiders are tough but not invincible.

 Envihon wrote:
That is the biggest weakness against GK: Armor and AP2 weaponry. Combine those two and you have the GKs worst nightmare. Especially the Crimson Slaughter rules with Ectoplasma rules, tears GK to shreds if they don't prepare for it and if he is running what he is, he isn't prepared for it. The Land Raiders are tough but not invincible.

I'll throw a different question at you then, what is a DE players strongest bet against GKs?
Technically not off topic!

Note to the OP. Win at all Costs, or WAAC, usually has a negative connotation. Just because someone runs a more competitive list than you are normally used to doesn't make that player a WAAC player. A WAAC player is also a player who wants to win so badly as to the exclusion of other people's enjoyment. It goes beyond just running a "netlist". Basically, a WAAC player is usually a poor sport, will argue rules in his favor, will semi-cheat to cheating outright, will argue if you do something that will hurt his chances to win, and will generally be rather unpleasant to play or even be around. It's really all about his attitude, not his list. There are plenty of competitive players who run tough lists, but are fair and pleasant people to play against. Ask yourself this, your GK opponent, is he a douche? Even though his list is tough to play against, did he do anything shady in the game or did he argue a lot? Was he pleasant to play against (not necessarily his army, but the person himself)? Then you will realize whether he really was a WAAC player or not. To me, it looks like your friend is just evolving as a player. It's very common. He plays. He wants to get better. Thus he starts running tougher lists. Soon enough, he will probably be going to tournaments. That's just the natural evolution of many players. You really can't expect him to stay a beers-&-pretzels type of player forever. Just as you prefer casual and friendly games using models that you enjoy, he seems to be evolving into the type of player that wants to be more competitive.

You are basically limited to what you would allow yourself to use against him. IMO, Chaos marines can absolutely compete against the Grey Knights. Honestly, the GK's are no where near as competitive as they used to be. Him running those types of units just puts him on a more equal footing against many of the more competitive armies out there. Otherwise, he'd get destroyed by some of the better armies if he were to bring just a casual GK army. My recommendation is this. You can run your usual army against the other casual players in the group. However, have a slightly more competitive army as well in the case some of your group members (like your GK opponent) want to play a little more competitively. That's what I normally do. I bring both a casual list and a more competitive one to my LGS so that I have the option of running either depending on who I meet and play against at my LGS.

 jy2 wrote:
Note to the OP. Win at all Costs, or WAAC, usually has a negative connotation. Just because someone runs a more competitive list than you are normally used to doesn't make that player a WAAC player. A WAAC player is also a player who wants to win so badly as to the exclusion of other people's enjoyment. It goes beyond just running a "netlist". Basically, a WAAC player is usually a poor sport, will argue rules in his favor, will semi-cheat to cheating outright, will argue if you do something that will hurt his chances to win, and will generally be rather unpleasant to play or even be around. It's really all about his attitude, not his list. There are plenty of competitive players who run tough lists, but are fair and pleasant people to play against. Ask yourself this, your GK opponent, is he a douche? Even though his list is tough to play against, did he do anything shady in the game or did he argue a lot? Was he pleasant to play against (not necessarily his army, but the person himself)? Then you will realize whether he really was a WAAC player or not. To me, it looks like your friend is just evolving as a player. It's very common. He plays. He wants to get better. Thus he starts running tougher lists. Soon enough, he will probably be going to tournaments. That's just the natural evolution of many players. You really can't expect him to stay a beers-&-pretzels type of player forever. Just as you prefer casual and friendly games using models that you enjoy, he seems to be evolving into the type of player that wants to be more competitive.

You are basically limited to what you would allow yourself to use against him. IMO, Chaos marines can absolutely compete against the Grey Knights. Honestly, the GK's are no where near as competitive as they used to be. Him running those types of units just puts him on a more equal footing against many of the more competitive armies out there. Otherwise, he'd get destroyed by some of the better armies if he were to bring just a casual GK army. My recommendation is this. You can run your usual army against the other casual players in the group. However, have a slightly more competitive army as well in the case some of your group members (like your GK opponent) want to play a little more competitively. That's what I normally do. I bring both a casual list and a more competitive one to my LGS so that I have the option of running either depending on who I meet and play against at my LGS.

Exalted, sigged, and applauded

As a GK player, this is COMPLETELY correct. The minimal you will see is a Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword and a Personal Teleporter and then if they can afford it a Heavy Psycannon will be the most common for sure. The best way to deal with GK is S8 AP2 weaponry. It won't help as much against the DKs but it will at least take their armor save away forcing them to use their Invul save. The best way to deal with a DK is the best way to deal with any Monstrous Creature, force weapons.

Somewhat true... The best way to deal with Gk player is DE getting first turn with venom spam and ravagers.. Like literally... DE... are the bane of GK possibly even more than Eldar..(It's just that there are more eldar players)

Considering the new points prices in the new codex, you are going to be seeing a LOT of NDK and terminator armor, and anyone that wants to transport termies is likely going to go for Land Raiders. I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that he's a WAAC gamer just because he's using more points-efficient models, but I digress.

No GK tournament players will be likely to utilize a Land Raider.. It falls hard to FMCs/MCs/(Lots of str 10 now) and takes up the choice over rather to get a DreadKnight, which is arguably better (Given the situation of course), In addition..Stormravens cost roughly the same points but are more important due to their ability to put pressure on flyers and still deal with vehicles on the ground..as well as quickly dispatch units on the table via a deepstrike rather than riding your landraider across the table into the fray of gun lines

There is no combination of units/list from the CSM codex that is capable of consistently beating that GK list, or most tourney lists for that matter. The CSM codex is outclassed by the latest BOOKS. just compare the point values for the GK units to what you get in the CSM codex for the same points. Its not even CLOSE.

The honest to God truth, that is if you are playing against a GK player that actually knows what they are doing and playing a high tier list.
Chaos
HQ
DPs
Elites
Termis- fail in comparison
zerkers- how are you going to get them there?
TSons- ap3 vs primarily 2+ now that strikes aren't prevailant... pretty much worthless... though at least they get a save so, I'd actually consider them the best csm PA unit as of the momeny
P Marines- they have crappy damage output, with ehhh survivability..
Cultist- only there to cap objectives
Raptors- worthless
Heldrake- not even that great a flier anymore now that most people use transports and Gk are becoming an army of 2+
Oblits- always going to be an ok unit, but they aren't great

Simply put... This codex was good for 6th because they had Drakes and they had un-nerfed FMCs... now they have neither... they suck in comparison to just taking a pure daemon force...

Technically, there are no "Tournament Level" GK lists. The closest they can get are 2 CADs for 6 NDKs, 2 Libbies, and 4 naked squads of GK Strikes. A GK "for fun" list will see units not listed above. GK Termies are really good right now, and have a place as Troops in any GK list, yet they are still Tac Termies that die like Tac Termies. If you load up on anti-tank, and go for Tarpitting, you can neuter a "for fun" GK list with just about any army (sorry Nids, it's not your day to shine).

Just plan on killing 1-2 Knight Titans, and you will have enough AT to burn Grey Knights.

SJ

I kind of agree with this. There are no pure GK tournament lists. The GKs unfortunately lack a lot of things to be self-sufficient like some armies can so the best Tournament list is going to be GK with Allies or the GK are the Allies. That being said, Terminators and DKs will be what you see most, so if you can take those out, you will do fine. Most of the Deathstars containing GK are GK supporting another army like Draigostar where Draigo, and a Librarian support of Grav Centurions.

These 2 hit it on the nail.. though GK can also play alongside a Biker Star and be very competitive... it's just that DraigoCenturion star is the popular take right now..

That is the biggest weakness against GK: Armor and AP2 weaponry. Combine those two and you have the GKs worst nightmare. Especially the Crimson Slaughter rules with Ectoplasma rules, tears GK to shreds if they don't prepare for it and if he is running what he is, he isn't prepared for it. The Land Raiders are tough but not invincible.

"This is Pure GKs Weakness".. now that most gk players are utilizing allies that's not going to be much of an issue when you run grav gun centurions or grav gun bikers... In addition, it's not so much just ap2 and armor.. it's field presence via mobility... however that too once again via gating and bikers to be taken as allies... is no longer a problem...

 Dezstiny wrote:

As a GK player, this is COMPLETELY correct. The minimal you will see is a Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword and a Personal Teleporter and then if they can afford it a Heavy Psycannon will be the most common for sure. The best way to deal with GK is S8 AP2 weaponry. It won't help as much against the DKs but it will at least take their armor save away forcing them to use their Invul save. The best way to deal with a DK is the best way to deal with any Monstrous Creature, force weapons.

Somewhat true... The best way to deal with Gk player is DE getting first turn with venom spam and ravagers.. Like literally... DE... are the bane of GK possibly even more than Eldar..(It's just that there are more eldar players)

As a DE player... I'm wondering how this is the case I just don't see it. Their Power Armour units are really good, other than our troops being able to bring down a Dreadknight (it still takes about 100 shots to do it), I can't think of any uniquely great tools we have to deal with GK. Our Dark Light Weaponry is overcosted, although I guess Dissies are going to be effective against most things. Not enough to really swing the advantage our way, at all.

Considering the new points prices in the new codex, you are going to be seeing a LOT of NDK and terminator armor, and anyone that wants to transport termies is likely going to go for Land Raiders. I wouldn't necessarily jump to the conclusion that he's a WAAC gamer just because he's using more points-efficient models, but I digress.

No GK tournament players will be likely to utilize a Land Raider.. It falls hard to FMCs/MCs/(Lots of str 10 now) and takes up the choice over rather to get a DreadKnight, which is arguably better (Given the situation of course), In addition..Stormravens cost roughly the same points but are more important due to their ability to put pressure on flyers and still deal with vehicles on the ground..as well as quickly dispatch units on the table via a deepstrike rather than riding your landraider across the table into the fray of gun lines

Land Raider is actually an excellent model against most armies MC's and all armies FMC's (except multiple Crones). The one smash attack does very little and is highly unreliable and hard to apply.
There is no combination of units/list from the CSM codex that is capable of consistently beating that GK list, or most tourney lists for that matter. The CSM codex is outclassed by the latest BOOKS. just compare the point values for the GK units to what you get in the CSM codex for the same points. Its not even CLOSE.

The honest to God truth, that is if you are playing against a GK player that actually knows what they are doing and playing a high tier list.
Chaos
HQ
DPs
Elites
Termis- fail in comparison
zerkers- how are you going to get them there?
TSons- ap3 vs primarily 2+ now that strikes aren't prevailant... pretty much worthless... though at least they get a save so, I'd actually consider them the best csm PA unit as of the momeny
P Marines- they have crappy damage output, with ehhh survivability..
Cultist- only there to cap objectives
Raptors- worthless
Heldrake- not even that great a flier anymore now that most people use transports and Gk are becoming an army of 2+
Oblits- always going to be an ok unit, but they aren't great

Simply put... This codex was good for 6th because they had and they had un-nerfed FMCs... now they have neither... they suck in comparison to just taking a pure daemon force...

You literally just listed a bunch of the worst units in the dex... other than the DP's who I feel are still pretty niche, and for a very specific style of build, the practically none of the rest is our Core... NOBODY uses TSons & Zerkers, Raptors are just crappy bikes most the time, Heldrake is a "1 of" in mech, still hits like a truck, obviously not as hard against 2+ though, still a GREAT flyer. Plague Marines and Oblits are two of the most overrated units in the dex, they are great at tricking people into thinking they are good, in reality they are in my eyes worse than Bezerkers ~_~ Cultists are ALWAYS only there to cap objective or throw themselves into CC, it's what their role is. As for Oblits, you are right. They are always going to do do something, but never going to be worth their points. They are the most overrated unit in the entire game IMO, something that should definitely be strayed away from.

Assuming all the models you mentioned are terrible against GK, thats news to no sensible players of CSM, we knew most these models were bad, the only real loss for me is CC Terminators. Yet I don't think they are totally useless regardless.

The real meat of CSM is Bikes, Havocs & Preds, and DS Helbrutes.



These units are still great in this match up, and the fight is far from one sided.

Technically, there are no "Tournament Level" GK lists. The closest they can get are 2 CADs for 6 NDKs, 2 Libbies, and 4 naked squads of GK Strikes. A GK "for fun" list will see units not listed above. GK Termies are really good right now, and have a place as Troops in any GK list, yet they are still Tac Termies that die like Tac Termies. If you load up on anti-tank, and go for Tarpitting, you can neuter a "for fun" GK list with just about any army (sorry Nids, it's not your day to shine).

Just plan on killing 1-2 Knight Titans, and you will have enough AT to burn Grey Knights.

SJ

I kind of agree with this. There are no pure GK tournament lists. The GKs unfortunately lack a lot of things to be self-sufficient like some armies can so the best Tournament list is going to be GK with Allies or the GK are the Allies. That being said, Terminators and DKs will be what you see most, so if you can take those out, you will do fine. Most of the Deathstars containing GK are GK supporting another army like Draigostar where Draigo, and a Librarian support of Grav Centurions.

SJ hit it on the nail.. though GK can also play alongside a Biker Star and be very competitive... it's just that DraigoCenturion star is the popular take right now..

That is the biggest weakness against GK: Armor and AP2 weaponry. Combine those two and you have the GKs worst nightmare. Especially the Crimson Slaughter rules with Ectoplasma rules, tears GK to shreds if they don't prepare for it and if he is running what he is, he isn't prepared for it. The Land Raiders are tough but not invincible.

"This is Pure GKs Weakness".. now that most gk players are utilizing allies that's not going to be much of an issue when you run grav gun centurions or grav gun bikers... In addition, it's not so much just ap2 and armor.. it's field presence via mobility... however that too once again via gating and bikers to be taken as allies... is no longer a problem...

Plague marines survivability is higher valued vs GK now that they lost psybolt (T5 FNP marines, drool) and carry double specials (drool). Their damage output is far from crappy, especially because they can reliably would a Dreadknight (helloooo plague knives) and inhibit GK damage output on the charge (blight grenades).

I'd also argue that Chaos termies, although you are correct in being inferior overall, are one of the few actually capable of stepping toe-to-toe with GK ones. With the loss of halberd +2init, Slaanesh Terminators swing first. A smart Chaos player will be toting swords and maces with them, maybe a token chainfist. Largely bounce off the GK armor, but will knock down a model or two before they get to hit. Which is huge. Then there's Kharn, who punks everybody short of Draigo.

Wouldn't write them off as a threat so quickly.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Plague marines survivability is higher valued vs GK now that they lost psybolt (T5 FNP marines, drool) and carry double specials (drool). Their damage output is far from crappy, especially because they can reliably would a Dreadknight (helloooo plague knives) and inhibit GK damage output on the charge (blight grenades).

I'd also argue that Chaos termies, although you are correct in being inferior overall, are one of the few actually capable of stepping toe-to-toe with GK ones. With the loss of halberd +2init, Slaanesh Terminators swing first. A smart Chaos player will be toting swords and maces with them, maybe a token chainfist. Largely bounce off the GK armor, but will knock down a model or two before they get to hit. Which is huge. Then there's Kharn, who punks everybody short of Draigo.

Wouldn't write them off as a threat so quickly.

Plague Marines are just terrible... They need to get 12 hits just to put a single wound on a Dreadknight, do not get fooled by the poison, S6 AP- is not a threat to Dreaknight in any form but large number of dice... which is exactly what you lose by taking PM's... They cost so much more than any other troop, as an Elite it's not even a consideration... This sounds like crazy talk to most CSM players, we've been told and read everywhere the Plague Marines are great, but... look at their cost... You get about double as many regular CSM for the price, T5 is not worth that much, and almost anything the plague Knives are relevant against are going to have at least a 3+ save to counter the effectiveness of poison just as much as the toughness raised it by (or more), and other than this there isn't a whole lot of selling points. It's a slot you do not want to be putting points into anyway, with minimum size mandatory squads being the order of the day for CSM. Take min cultists or min CSM in a Rhino, this is the best way to make use our troops.

As a DE player... I'm wondering how this is the case I just don't see it. Their Power Armour units are really good, other than our troops being able to bring down a Dreadknight (it still takes about 100 shots to do it), I can't think of any uniquely great tools we have to deal with GK. Our Dark Light Weaponry is overcosted, although I guess Dissies are going to be effective against most things. Not enough to really swing the advantage our way, at all.

Of the games I have lost... I have lost more to dark eldar than eldar as a primary Gk player... 100+ shots to bring down a Knight is pretty large overstatement... it only holds four wounds... if you put 10+ wounds on it consistently over the course of one turn to save.. there won't be a dreadknight after that turn...usually it takes about 30 forced wounds to be save or so from my experience(without lances).. bar the occasionaly horrid role of 2 1s in 5 saves or what not... In addition DE naturally play outside the 24" range of grey knights...If DE goes first... they should get at least 2 turns to put 100+ shots into them over the course of those 2 turns. I'm just stating that from my personal experience that a Dark Eldar player with knowledge of target priority can easily outmaneuver around grey knights while putting in plenty of shots. (That's not even going into whether they have eldar allies or not)

You literally just listed a bunch of the worst units in the dex... other than the DP's who I feel are still pretty niche, and for a very specific style of build, the practically none of the rest is our Core... NOBODY uses TSons & Zerkers, Raptors are just crappy bikes most the time, Heldrake is a "1 of" in mech, still hits like a truck, obviously not as hard against 2+ though, still a GREAT flyer. Plague Marines and Oblits are two of the most overrated units in the dex, they are great at tricking people into thinking they are good, in reality they are in my eyes worse than Bezerkers ~_~ Cultists are ALWAYS only there to cap objective or throw themselves into CC, it's what their role is. As for Oblits, you are right. They are always going to do do something, but never going to be worth their points. They are the most overrated unit in the entire game IMO, something that should definitely be strayed away from.
Assuming all the models you mentioned are terrible against GK, thats news to no sensible players of CSM, we knew most these models were bad, the only real loss for me is CC Terminators. Yet I don't think they are totally useless regardlessThe real meat of CSM is Bikes, Havocs & Preds, and DS Helbrutes.These units are still great in this match up, and the fight is far from one sided.

I actually just kind of went through a run down of most the codex... not a bunch of the worst. Yes, I agree with what you said about the Oblits, P.MARINES, TSONS, zerkers, and ratpors...The drake is O.K...(doesn't have strong synergy with that of the faction due to most of it being irrelevant)However, Biker CSM is inferior in almost all regards to SM Bikers, with ATSKKF, and Grav Guns with Khan...Havocs are a stationary A.V. unit that is taken down with just the slightest amount of saturated shooting. Hellbrutes are like any other Dreadnought... incapable of getting to other side of the field to make a difference.. and one shotted by a M.C. Preds... are a solid choice...but not a unit to be relied upon..DP.. need to land before they charge...and you only have 2 of them at most as HQ unless allied with daemons.. in which case I'd ask why you aren't playing the other way around.

Well actually it's still going to be just as much a weakness to the GK portion of the army as before, and you just don't have to spread it as far... assuming you took units who aren't counter by AP2 and AT weaponry.
How taking Centurions and Bikes change this weakness at all, I have no idea ~_~

Because they form the backbone of the army when it comes to dealing out ranged damage while being able to easily reposition?

GK w SM Allies (Khan)
1750

Primary Detachment
GK 786pts

HQ
Libby
MLV3 DH

Troops
5 Terminators
Incinerator
Daemon Hammer
Ward Stave
3 Halberds

Heavy Support

Nemesis DreadKnight
GS, PT, HI, H. Psycannon

Nemesis DreadKnight
GS, PT, HI, H. Psycannon

Allied Detachment
SM 964pts.

HQ
Khan
Bike

5 Command Squad
Bikes, Apothecary, 3 Stormshields, Standard, PF

Troops
4(5) Bikers
2 Grav Guns, melta bombs, Combi-Melta
Attack Bike
MM

4(5) Bikers
2 Grav Guns, meta bombs, Combi-Melta
Attack Bike
MM

Fast Attack
StormTalon
Skyhammer ML
SL

Heavy Support
Thunder Fire Cannon

26 models

The Bikes stand as a strong central core of the army able to put pressure on units from mid ranged combat while still being effective when it comes time to deal with GEQ. The dreadknight support their pushes with ranged platform popping vehicles and burning down hordes. As well as taking down M.C. Thunder Fire Cannon supports form long ranged. The Storm Talon supports the pushes and deals with fliers because it is fast enough to keep up. Libby can teleport to anywhere where Khan and his biker squad are and get in combat and easily change the outcome due to psycher buffs... In the end there is no unit that is incapable of going less than 12" in a turn except a TFC... How does that not deal with GK mobility through utilizing allies?

*Note*
If, I seem to be coming off as sniveling/rude SHUPPET, I apologize because I am not trying to..I'm just looking at this from a largely analytical unit/effecitveness/relevance point of view...

sand.zzz wrote:
There is no combination of units/list from the CSM codex that is capable of consistently beating that GK list, or most tourney lists for that matter. The CSM codex is outclassed by the latest books. just compare the point values for the GK units to what you get in the CSM codex for the same points. Its not even close.

My question is, how do you have a local community that isnt all netlisting? I have my choice of an flgs, a GW, and a small group of friends to play games with. They are all hardcore WAAC. There is occasionally a random drop in at the flgs or GW that just wants a fun game - but other than that its netlisting WAAC with no exceptions. I dont play anymore because of it. No one wants to play for fun.

Those lists are fun. That's my meta too and we all manage to have tons of fun every time we play a game. When did taking a good list become "WAAC"?

To the OP, it's going to be tough to beat that list with a pure CSM army. I would suggest taking daemon allies.

I would say that the best way to play csm competitively against this kind of list would be to effectively use cultists, and by effectively I mean tar pit. Use 1 or 2 units of 20+ cultist and single out the dread knights then you can focus your efforts at bringing the rest of your army against the other dread knight or high priority targets. Personally I would probably bring a vindicator , las pred and possibly some oblits they are always a great utility unit. Then if you like taking plauge marines at least 3 units of 7 with rhino and plasma and melta and sergeant with combi plas/melta. You could make one if these squads a dedicated dread knight kill squad and give them 2 plas combi plas and get this a POWERFIST. Because as far as I know a dreadknight is not a character it is a monsterous creature so you don't have to worry about challenges. Another good unit to consider is the 5 terminators with combi plas. Although CSM has takin some hits to be a competitive codex the right tactics can always win games. Goodluck

Hey for starters let me say you don't come off at all rude or sniveling LOL I'm just sharing my counter opinions to yours, nothing personal

 Dezstiny wrote:

As a DE player... I'm wondering how this is the case I just don't see it. Their Power Armour units are really good, other than our troops being able to bring down a Dreadknight (it still takes about 100 shots to do it), I can't think of any uniquely great tools we have to deal with GK. Our Dark Light Weaponry is overcosted, although I guess Dissies are going to be effective against most things. Not enough to really swing the advantage our way, at all.

Of the games I have lost... I have lost more to dark eldar than eldar as a primary Gk player... 100+ shots to bring down a Knight is pretty large overstatement... it only holds four wounds... if you put 10+ wounds on it consistently over the course of one turn to save.. there won't be a dreadknight after that turn...usually it takes about 30 forced wounds to be save or so from my experience(without lances).. bar the occasionaly horrid role of 2 1s in 5 saves or what not... In addition DE naturally play outside the 24" range of grey knights...If DE goes first... they should get at least 2 turns to put 100+ shots into them over the course of those 2 turns. I'm just stating that from my personal experience that a Dark Eldar player with knowledge of target priority can easily outmaneuver around grey knights while putting in plenty of shots. (That's not even going into whether they have eldar allies or not)

Well the maths says that with a 2+ save, 4 wounds takes 24 successful wounds, which takes 48 successful hits, which takes.. 72 shots? Sorry I did my calcs with DE at BS3 for some reason lol. Still, thats a lot of shooting. 6 Venoms worth to be precise. That being said, dropping a NDK or 2 a turn is probably going to give you a pretty big lead. You might be right on this one. This was a genuine question for me, I don't play my DE as often as my Nids and I have never actually played this match up.

You literally just listed a bunch of the worst units in the dex... other than the DP's who I feel are still pretty niche, and for a very specific style of build, the practically none of the rest is our Core... NOBODY uses TSons & Zerkers, Raptors are just crappy bikes most the time, Heldrake is a "1 of" in mech, still hits like a truck, obviously not as hard against 2+ though, still a GREAT flyer. Plague Marines and Oblits are two of the most overrated units in the dex, they are great at tricking people into thinking they are good, in reality they are in my eyes worse than Bezerkers ~_~ Cultists are ALWAYS only there to cap objective or throw themselves into CC, it's what their role is. As for Oblits, you are right. They are always going to do do something, but never going to be worth their points. They are the most overrated unit in the entire game IMO, something that should definitely be strayed away from.
Assuming all the models you mentioned are terrible against GK, thats news to no sensible players of CSM, we knew most these models were bad, the only real loss for me is CC Terminators. Yet I don't think they are totally useless regardlessThe real meat of CSM is Bikes, Havocs & Preds, and DS Helbrutes.These units are still great in this match up, and the fight is far from one sided.

I actually just kind of went through a run down of most the codex... not a bunch of the worst. Yes, I agree with what you said about the Oblits, P.MARINES, TSONS, zerkers, and ratpors...The drake is O.K...(doesn't have strong synergy with that of the faction due to most of it being irrelevant)However, Biker CSM is inferior in almost all regards to SM Bikers, with ATSKKF, and Grav Guns with Khan...Havocs are a stationary A.V. unit that is taken down with just the slightest amount of saturated shooting. Hellbrutes are like any other Dreadnought... incapable of getting to other side of the field to make a difference.. and one shotted by a M.C. Preds... are a solid choice...but not a unit to be relied upon..DP.. need to land before they charge...and you only have 2 of them at most as HQ unless allied with daemons.. in which case I'd ask why you aren't playing the other way around.

I have come across the same thing that Dezstiny does except I do mine with Drop Pods, Centurions and Draigo. For me, I don't like the Bikes as much but that is more personal preference than tactical decision. Bikes have a lot more reliability than Gate of Infinity.

Hmm Bike CSM are not in every way inferior... I run 2x 10 man Slaanesh BIKES IN my bio CSM... they are all hitting first when normal SM bikes are not;... both packs are lead by a Juggerlord, one with Black Mace one with Axe of Fury, and these are also I5.. that is going to take a MASSIVE chunk out of anything GK before they can return combat... they play differently to SM bikes, and while Grav would obviously be liked as an option, 3x melta shots per squad is still nice anyway, and you can do that even with a 3 man squad. I kind of agree about Helbrutes, but thats why I specifically specified the Deepstrike Helbrutes, there is a formation that allows you to take three and they all have DS... otherwise, I fully agree with you!! But because of the Deepstrike, it actually pushes them from bottom tier to one of the best mech units in our dex (if not THE best). Havocs can die, but hey you can give ablative wounds, ADL, a Rhino for mobility and cover, and they are still really cheap easy to spam AT... I either run 3 squads or none at all. They are what people should be taking, instead of Oblits. And yeah, I agree about Demon Princes, hence why I said very niche, although I personally think they always have been. Glad we agree on Oblits, PM's, TSons, Zerkers, and Raptors... but may I ask exactly WHY I can't rely on 3x AV13 FA triple Lascannon Predators?

I say that mainly because of the manner of points they take up for the number of shots they put out. Say you go the full Lascannon Pred build for like 150points or so x3... that's 9 Lascannon shots 3 of which are twinlinked... however is that really worth it given that most units are going to be relying on cover saves/behind some measure of cover...for 150 points a pop? In the fashion you are playing them (Like that of a squadron) There are so many armies that for the same amount of points get a squad capable of filling out that same role, for better and with better survivability (I look at the game from a large stand point of what stands out in a codex in relevance to other codexes) At the end of they day that 450 points is going to need to be capable of dealing with mass fliers/FMCS, serpent/venom spam, hordes, etc.. all the same. And 450 points, one could naturally get a unit/units that fulfill the same role as this ranged platform and be more well rounded (Though maybe not as Ap2 high strength dependant) Vice Versa, if you run the autocannon and heavy bolter build.. You are running what is similar (if not worse to the equivalent of a Wave Serpent, that can't transport troops, does not have a natural cover save/Jink) That is why I said, that while they are an indeed Solid choice, they are not a unit to be relied upon.

Nobody said anything about mobility, wasn't the statement you responded to, that they don't trade well against massed AP2 and AT? Bikes trade slightly better with both thanks to 3+ and jink when necessary, however, I don't think that's what I'd call "getting rid of GKs weakness".

That is certainly a respectable statement to make, and I certainly agree. Probably the best way to state things is that..it "compensates for the lack of" However, compensation I'd argue is exactly what is needed. I mean if you think about it. What would you say if this army had what it did now, with the capabilites of being able to take down vehicles and heavily armored units from downranged as well. I for one would consider them to be far and out Broken and OP. An army that can deepstrike, are naturally all psychers with force ap3 weapons that can become str 6 if they choose, with Soul blaze str 6 Incinerators, in addition to deepstrike, in addition to (say for example, a ton of ap2 grav gun like weapons for outside of combat), In addition to easy acess to allow for saturation of longranged missiles to destroy vehicles so that we can then crush them in combat, with buffs from santuary as well as damage dealing spells like cleansing flame...I mean the more and more I write... I just get a bad taste in my mouth as to how absolutely Crazyily Redonculous that would be. I mean this army when equipped to be so, is imo certainly the strongest melee faction in the game. To introduce the ability to actually FIX the ap2 problem would be in essence taking away the only weakness of this faction. Every faction needs some kind of weakness, hell I'm actually shocked that we are now battlebrothers with SM, because of how now that rift has become more like a crack in the ground. That's is how I am looking at the situation personally.

I have come across the same thing that Dezstiny does except I do mine with Drop Pods, Centurions and Draigo. For me, I don't like the Bikes as much but that is more personal preference than tactical decision. Bikes have a lot more reliability than Gate of INFINITY.

Yes, and moreover one has to always take into account the natural weaknesses of any army list build. The greatest weakness of the DraigoCenturion star is turn 1. If they dont go first, and your opponent has a nuke capable army... You will lose the game...Because you are so to speak counting on that unit to do almost everything for you. As to however, if you break that up into roles to be given out across an entire field of units, then you have more variety of options and more of a safety net given something doesn't go your way.

However, tbh I haven't really helped out the O.P. so my advice to him from a Gk player, would be to either
1. Think about starting up daemons to ally with/ Make as a primary detachment- because I honestly can't say that you will be able to get the tools needed to deal with such a list without any
2. Out fit both the Plague Marines with a plasma gun and a melta gun.
3. Get 2 Daemon Princes.. I remember when I had a chaos lord/sorcerer... then I got Daemon Princes "You'll be saying the same thing" getting daemon princes with wings dont make you automatically competitive, but they do make you more of a respectable opponent I will tell you that.
(I so badly wanna say take like Abby or kharn with some bezerkers in a landraider but... I just know that is just.... *Sigh* probably never going to reach the other side, It would still be fun, all the carnage such a squad could do but it's just so out there along the lines of aliens from outter space)
4. (Utilizing what you have. take the 5 raptors.. give 3 melta guns and use that unit primarily only as a scuicide unit to drop a land raider)
5. Defilers are really fun, but they aren't really the least bit competitive... 2 Lascannon Pred (I dont ever really recommend 3 of anything).. for roughly the same points would probably do best(Given this codexes options)
6. Get rid of the spawn... they have no way to help you in such a match up- he will force weapon all of them to death

going off a point on the previous page about using cultists to bubble wrap a corner and force his DSing further out. Now i've never done this, but would it work?

Could I place the cultists into single lines that go away from the corner? think like how you'd draw a sun, with the rays leading away? you'd end up with quite a lot of area covered, with gaps inbetween where he could potentially deepstrike, but at the risk of any scatter causing a mishap?

Plus then if he does DS somewhere between your rays and doesn't shoot your cultists, you can then use them to simply circle his units as also mentioned before

Solar Shock wrote:
going off a point on the previous page about using cultists to bubble wrap a corner and force his DSing further out. Now i've never done this, but would it work?

Could I place the cultists into single lines that go away from the corner? think like how you'd draw a sun, with the rays leading away? you'd end up with quite a lot of area covered, with gaps inbetween where he could potentially deepstrike, but at the risk of any scatter causing a mishap?

Plus then if he does DS somewhere between your rays and doesn't shoot your cultists, you can then use them to simply circle his units as also mentioned before

You certainly can. If hes going drop pod heavy, put your back stuff in the corner. He has to come to you. Otherwise his drop pods are largely wasted other than for spreading his units across the board and claiming objectives. Except with the mobility of CSM, this should be a big loss for him

GK don't have much in the way of interceptor, so you can also just leave a few squads out of line of sight/out of position and reserve the meat of your army, the refuse a flank and shoot the killy, kill the shooty.

Vindicare Assassin formation is rough too, though this strategy is decent against it as well.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Hmm Bike CSM are not in every way inferior... I run 2x 10 man Slaanesh bikes in my bio CSM... they are all hitting first when normal SM bikes are not;... both packs are lead by a Juggerlord, one with Black Mace one with Axe of Fury, and these are also I5..

Juggerlords are Khorne. How are they joining a unit of Slaanesh bikers?

They aren't in the same unit in game, it's just a "term" I like to use for the positioning I play. The Slaanesh Khorne fluff is stupid regardless we're all CSM here.

No worries. Its just when you said they each pack was lead by a juggerlord, it implies they are in the same unit.

As for CSM, I am fine with Khorne, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh. It is Nurgle I can't stand. They are all slimy and gross. Just because we're heretics, it doesn't mean we can't be neat and tidy.

 Green is Best! wrote:
No worries. Its just when you said they each pack was lead by a juggerlord, it implies they are in the same unit.

As for CSM, I am fine with Khorne, Tzeentch, and Slaanesh. It is Nurgle I can't stand. They are all slimy and gross. Just because we're heretics, it doesn't mean we can't be neat and tidy.

Just imagined some uber-gay khorne marine getting in a huff after stepping in some blood and ruining his blood red boots.....

personally all about slaneesh and Tzeentch, but sadly nurgle is the easiest modelling ever! whereas Tzeentch not so much :/

IM A Tzeentchian here for practically everything, but Slaan Bikers and Juggerlordz are too awesome for me to say no too with my bio lists.

Quick question back to the DE part of the forum lol, are haywire grenades not effective against the GK Knights? I don't know much about GK so I think the question is are they a walker or a unit?

Haywire doesnt affect Nemesis Dreadknights, as they're monstrous creatures, not Walkers

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Haywire doesnt affect Nemesis Dreadknights, as they're monstrous creatures, not Walkers

Hmm that seems crazy, I would not refer to anything a SM has as MC lol.
I think it looks like a walker ^_^

It should be one. But alas, MC's have better rules so certain writers have decided that it is the way to go.

If NDK isn't a walker, why do we have rules for them...?

 soomemafia wrote:
It should be one. But alas, MC's have better rules so certain writers have decided that it is the way to go.

If NDK isn't a walker, why do we have rules for them...?

NDKs don't have Walker rules, they have Monstrous Creature rules. Are you confusing them with Imperial Knights?

SJ

 CShaffer wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Haywire doesnt affect Nemesis Dreadknights, as they're monstrous creatures, not Walkers

Hmm that seems crazy, I would not refer to anything a SM has as MC lol.
I think it looks like a walker ^_^

It is a Monstrous Creature because the pilot is not full encapsulated but has that wonderful baby harness that it is strapped into. If you look at other models that are Walkers, they are always fully encapsulated within a cockpit. The only exception to this rule is the Wraithknight where the pilot is in cockpit.

By that logic shouldn't Wraithknight be a walker?

 SHUPPET wrote:
By that logic shouldn't Wraithknight be a walker?

That is why at the end of that sentence I said the only exception would be the Wraithknight.