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Already quoted above (LINK).

what you quoted was a restriction and how you fire a template weapon in overwatch. The weapon itself has a restrcition stating that it cannot be fired as a snap shot. If wall of death is a snap shot it cannot be used. You need to quote a rule that specifically names Wall of Death as a snap shot to make it so.

And what does the first rules passage I quoted say? The only way that can be true is if 'Wall of Death' is a type of Snap Shot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, as they were not targeted. This also means they cannot Jink, if eligible.

Since blast targets models per BRB and not units how can you place the blast above a unit that cannot be hit by blasts?
I mean, blast can't fire snapshots, if you place the blast above a unit and you target a couple of models from an invisible unit
Isn't that unit an illegal target? I thought that only scatter counted, since if you place he blast from the start you are targeting both units.

 avedominusnox wrote:
Since blast targets models per BRB and not units...

That is not true. Blast targets units just like any other weapon. You're combining how a Blast weapon hits (Step #4 of the Shooting Sequence) with how it determines who's the target (Step #2 of the Shooting Sequence).

So what you are saying is that a blast targeting unit A and both invisible unit B ignores invisibility?
Also about wall of death does it ignore invisibility? I see people mentioning that it doesn't as it still
counts as firing snap shots.

A Blast weapon can only target one unit. It can scatter and hit an invisible unit.

 Ghaz wrote:
A Blast weapon can only target one unit. It can scatter and hit an invisible unit.

Yes but can you place it before rolling scatter above a unit and target an invisible unit in addition?

Again, you only target one unit. Invisibility only prevents the unit from being targeted, not hit. If they're under a legally placed blast marker then they're hit.

 avedominusnox wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
A Blast weapon can only target one unit. It can scatter and hit an invisible unit.

Yes but can you place it before rolling scatter above a unit and target an invisible unit in addition?

You aren't targeting them, you're only targeting the non-invisible unit.

Ok thanks for the answer. What about wall of death? Can it hit an invisible unit?

Yes it can. Invisible units can be hit by snap shots only, wall of death allow you to overwatch with flamers and auto hit invisible unit. Wall of death=snapshots with flamers. Invisible units take hits from snapshots from flamers from wall of death rule.

Or other way. There is nothing in invisibility wording that prevent you make overwatch. So if you are able to overwatch you can hit invisibility unit. Usually overwatch = snap shots. In this case overwatch=wall of death that allow you to fire overwatch from flamers.

Hope i helped.

Mr.T wrote:
Yes it can. Invisible units can be hit by snap shots only, wall of death allow you to overwatch with flamers and auto hit invisible unit. Wall of death=snapshots with flamers. Invisible units take hits from snapshots from flamers from wall of death rule.

Or other way. There is nothing in invisibility wording that prevent you make overwatch. So if you are able to overwatch you can hit invisibility unit. Usually overwatch = snap shots. In this case overwatch=wall of death that allow you to fire overwatch from flamers.

Hope i helped.

There is zero rules support for the underlined portion.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Mr.T wrote:
Yes it can. Invisible units can be hit by snap shots only, wall of death allow you to overwatch with flamers and auto hit invisible unit. Wall of death=snapshots with flamers. Invisible units take hits from snapshots from flamers from wall of death rule.

Or other way. There is nothing in invisibility wording that prevent you make overwatch. So if you are able to overwatch you can hit invisibility unit. Usually overwatch = snap shots. In this case overwatch=wall of death that allow you to fire overwatch from flamers.

Hope i helped.

There is zero rules support for the underlined portion.

Considering the only way to overwatch is to snap shot, and wall of death gives the flamer permission to overwatch, the unit being invisible is irrelevant.

Template and blast weapons can't fire snap shots but the wall of death rule allows you to Overwatch by rolling a D3 auto hits.

If you're invisible, template and blast weapons can't target you since they can only fire snap shots

But if you assault a unit with flamers or template weapons, they are allowed to wall of death you since it's a special type of Overwatch that allows you to defend yourself from an assault

It is in fact relevant.

I'll break it down.

Invisible unit declares charge.
Charged unit wishes to fire overwatch.
Flamer is slected.
Check- unit may only fire snapshots in overwatch.
Flamers may not fire snap shots.
Wall of death is a specific exception to the overwatch restriction.
Flamer targets invisible unit.
Check- when shooting at an invisble unit, you may only fire snap shots.
Flamers may not fire snap shots.
There is no rule that gives flamers permission to ignore the specific restriction set by Invisiblity.

In other words, there are two seperate, unrelated rules limiting us to snap shots. (Overwatch and Invisibility). Wall of Death allows us to bypass the restriction put forth by Overwatch, but NOT invisibility.

A further example would be a vehicle which moved 12" and received a crew shaken result. This vehicle would be forced to fire snap shots for 2 reasons.
1)It moved 12"
2)crew shaken

Now take a Dark Eldar Ravager for example, which can fire all three guns at full BS after moving 12"
If that same Ravager received a crew shaken result, it would still be restricted to snap shots. The ravager's special rule only aplies to restriction #1(and not #2), just as Wall of Death only apllies to Overwatch (and not Invisibility).

THey're using the Wall of Death rule to overwatch, they're not targeting the invisible unit with a template

They dont get double snap shot protection

Wall of death works on invisible units

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
THey're using the Wall of Death rule to overwatch, they're not targeting the invisible unit with a template

They dont get double snap shot protection


Wall of death works on invisible units

Wall of death is NOT overwatch. It is done instead of overwatching (because templates cant fire snapshots)

The do indeed get "double snap shot protection", the same way that any unit taking fire from a DE Ravager who is shaken, and moved 12" would. Or do you think the Ravager can always fire at full BS regarles of shaken/stuned/jink etc?

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
THey're using the Wall of Death rule to overwatch, they're not targeting the invisible unit with a template

They dont get double snap shot protection


Wall of death works on invisible units

Wall of death is NOT overwatch. It is done instead of overwatching (because templates cant fire snapshots)

The do indeed get "double snap shot protection", the same way that any unit taking fire from a DE Ravager who is shaken, and moved 12" would. Or do you think the Ravager can always fire at full BS regarles of shaken/stuned/jink etc?

No they dont, the wounds are generated by the Wall of Death rule, not the flamer targeting the invisible unit

Wall of Death wounds automatically hit which bypasses invisbility, and they have permission to wall of death as they're overwatching

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
THey're using the Wall of Death rule to overwatch, they're not targeting the invisible unit with a template

They dont get double snap shot protection


Wall of death works on invisible units

Wall of death is NOT overwatch. It is done instead of overwatching (because templates cant fire snapshots)

The do indeed get "double snap shot protection", the same way that any unit taking fire from a DE Ravager who is shaken, and moved 12" would. Or do you think the Ravager can always fire at full BS regarles of shaken/stuned/jink etc?

No they dont, the wounds are generated by the Wall of Death rule, not the flamer targeting the invisible unit

Wall of Death wounds automatically hit which bypasses invisbility, and they have permission to wall of death as they're overwatching

Actually Wall of Death generates hits, not wounds and does not need to "target" the charging unit for invisibility to take effect. It just needs to be a shooting attack, which Wall of Death is.

They dont have permission to overwatch, they have permission to use Wall of Death. 2 different things.

Again, you have provided no rules support to support your theory, and you have failed to adress the Ravager example as well.

Wall of death is an overwatch attack. Overwatch attacks are snapshots. Erego, if wall of death = overwatch, overwatch = snapshots, then wall of death = snapshots.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


Actually Wall of Death generates hits, not wounds and does not need to "target" the charging unit for invisibility to take effect. It just needs to be a shooting attack, which Wall of Death is.

They dont have permission to overwatch, they have permission to use Wall of Death. 2 different things.

Again, you have provided no rules support to support your theory, and you have failed to adress the Ravager example as well.

You havent provided any rules support to prove that Invisible units get double snapshot protection when assaulting against a Rule that Automatically hits and has permission to overwatch

Wall of Death allows flamers to generate D3 automatic hits, automatic hits bypass invisibility such as Nova Powers do.

They have permission to Overwatch when being assaulted per the Wall of Death rule, that is their overwatch, they dont need additional persmission to do what the rule grants

And the Ravager example is irrelevant.

Please provide an actual quote from the BRB that says Wall of Death is a snap shot.

Please provide an actual qoute that says automatic hits bypass invisibility.

Ravager example is very relevant. By your logic a shaken Ravager that moves 12" can fire all its weapons at full BS because the Aerial Assault rule gives it permission to fire all wepons at full BS. The ravager has two restrictions on it.
1) it moved 12", may only fire snap shots.
2)crew shaken, may only fire snap shots.
Aerial Assault bypasses condition 1, but not condition 2. Therefore we may only fire snapshots due to crew shaken.

The Flamer has two restrictions.
1)overwatch, may only fire snapshots
2)firing at an invisible unit, may only fire snap shots.
Wall of Death bypasses condition 1, but not condition 2.
Therefore the flamer may only fire snap shots due to Invisibility, which flamers can NEVER do.

Again Wall of Death is NOT a snap shot. If you think it is, provide a qoute that supports it.

Provide an actual quote that the reqirement to hit an invisbile unit with Snap Shots stacks with the requirement to hit a unit with Overwatch with snap shots

The phrase "Automatically hits' within specific rules are the rule that they bypass invisbility, it hits automatically. You dont have to make a roll to hit against the Invisible unit

Enough with the strawmans, Flamers have permission to overwatch per wall of death. Wall of death generates automatic hits, therefor it can hit an invisible unit

Invisible units do not get double snap shot protection, unless you can quote a rule that they do

Still waiting for you to quote a page number to back up anything you are saying

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Still waiting for you to quote a page number to back up anything you are saying

Still waiting for your page numbers as well to back up what you're saying

Do you want the page numbers for Invisibility and Overwatch?

The rules themselves are what grant them permission to place restrictions on the firing unit. They do not need permission to "stack" as you say. They are two independent restrictions.

Wall of Death provides a specific exception to the restriction placed by Overwatch. You have the burden of proof here. You need to find a quote that gives a SPECIFIC exception to the restriction set in place by Invisibility.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Do you want the page numbers for Invisibility and Overwatch?

The rules themselves are what grant them permission to place restrictions on the firing unit. They do not need permission to "stack" as you say. They are two independent restrictions.

Wall of Death provides a specific exception to the restriction placed by Overwatch. You have the burden of proof here. You need to find a quote that gives a SPECIFIC exception to the restriction set in place by Invisibility.

No you have the burden to prove that two rules that hve the same restriction to shooting stack. The fact that you have to snap shot to Overwatch and Snapshot to hit Invisible targets. And that they're allowed to stack and prevent Flamers from using the Wall of Death rule, which permits them to overwatch instead of snapshotting, and generates auto-auto hits.

Please post the rule that states they stack

double post, fixed it.

This is where you are wrong. Stacking is irrelevant as they are two seprate restrictions set forth by two unrelated rules. They dont stack, they co-exist. JUST LIKE THE SNAP SHOOTING RESTRICTIONS ON THE RAVAGER...which you have failed to coment on.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

Everything you need to know is here: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch"

Template weapons can not fire snap shots, but they can Overwatch (Which are snap shots by default)

So in overwatch, even against an invisible unit, template weapons can fire overwatch and do so as per the rules of Wall of Death.