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*Edit* Realized my post probably doesn't fit what is looked for on this particular forum. Please disregard. *Edit*

It doesn't matter if the 2 rules stack or coexist, the wall of death is a snapshot attack and therefore completely usable vs invisibility.

 DeathReaper wrote:
"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

Everything you need to know is here: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch"

Template weapons can not fire snap shots, but they can Overwatch (Which are snap shots by default)

So in overwatch, even against an invisible unit, template weapons can fire overwatch and do so as per the rules of Wall of Death.

...(Which are snap shots by default)...

Do you have a rules quote to support this?

A template weapon inflicts D3 hits INSTEAD of making snap shots. The language in the Wall of Death rule supports this.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

"Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit..."

Key word being instead, meaning in place of.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amiricle wrote:
It doesn't matter if the 2 rules stack or coexist, the wall of death is a snapshot attack and therefore completely usable vs invisibility.

Please give me the page and paragraph where it says "Wall of Death is a snapshot."

Iirc invisibility precludes template weapons being used.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or is that just due to snap shots? I can't remember

 Bausk wrote:
Iirc invisibility precludes template weapons being used.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or is that just due to snap shots? I can't remember

Its only because of snap shots.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

Everything you need to know is here: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch"

Template weapons can not fire snap shots, but they can Overwatch (Which are snap shots by default)

So in overwatch, even against an invisible unit, template weapons can fire overwatch and do so as per the rules of Wall of Death.

...(Which are snap shots by default)...

Do you have a rules quote to support this?

A template weapon inflicts D3 hits INSTEAD of making snap shots. The language in the Wall of Death rule supports this.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

"Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit..."

Key word being instead, meaning in place of.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amiricle wrote:
It doesn't matter if the 2 rules stack or coexist, the wall of death is a snapshot attack and therefore completely usable vs invisibility.

Please give me the page and paragraph where it says "Wall of Death is a snapshot."

Again, as has been quoted multiple times in this thread. From 'Resolve Overwatch':

Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots

Since 'Wall of Death' is fired per the wording of it's rules as Overwatch, it must be a Snap Shot.

 Ghaz wrote:
Since 'Wall of Death' is fired per the wording of it's rules as Overwatch, it must be a Snap Shot.

It is not a Snap shot. The rule clearly states that it is not. It is a special rule of the template weapons that grants it permission to be used in overwatch. Specific > General.

Fragile wrote:
It is not a Snap shot. The rule clearly states that it is not.

Then please quote where it says as much, because the rule clearly says that the Template weapon fire Overwatch and any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

Everything you need to know is here: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch"

Template weapons can not fire snap shots, but they can Overwatch (Which are snap shots by default)

So in overwatch, even against an invisible unit, template weapons can fire overwatch and do so as per the rules of Wall of Death.

...(Which are snap shots by default)...

Do you have a rules quote to support this?

A template weapon inflicts D3 hits INSTEAD of making snap shots. The language in the Wall of Death rule supports this.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

"Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit..."

Key word being instead, meaning in place of.

Overwatch is snapshots by default because the rules for Overwatch tell us that "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots." (The assault Phase chapter, Resolve Overwatch section).

...An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack... and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on... Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch

...Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the chargingunit,

Wall of Death is a specific rule that overrides the normal overwatch rules. They are not snap shots, however, They are automatic hits against the unit. If we're going nitty gritty RAW here, it at no point says that the bearer of the Wall of Death eligible weapon at any point "targets" the charging unit. It just says that it automatically inflict D3 hits on the charging unit.

Invisible unit charging unit with flamer.
Recipient unit of charge must resolve weapons one at a time.
Elects to overwatch with las guns. Target the unit with snap shots. Legal.
Elects to overwatch with flamer. Automatic hits scored on the unit. No snap shots, but no explicit targeting at any point occurs. The charging unit is automatically scored hits on.

Seeing as our nose is already to the grindstone, in this circumstance, because the template weapon is NOT firing (because it cant fire snapshots), it technically also does not benefit from the ignores cover rule or any other special rules the weapon may have, because "...it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value...." mentions nothing about special rules, just applying automatic hits with the same S and AP as the template weapon being wielded.

Ghaz wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It is not a Snap shot. The rule clearly states that it is not.

Then please quote where it says as much, because the rule clearly says that the Template weapon fire Overwatch and any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

DeathReaper wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

Everything you need to know is here: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch"

Template weapons can not fire snap shots, but they can Overwatch (Which are snap shots by default)

So in overwatch, even against an invisible unit, template weapons can fire overwatch and do so as per the rules of Wall of Death.

...(Which are snap shots by default)...

Do you have a rules quote to support this?

A template weapon inflicts D3 hits INSTEAD of making snap shots. The language in the Wall of Death rule supports this.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

"Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit..."

Key word being instead, meaning in place of.

Overwatch is snapshots by default because the rules for Overwatch tell us that "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots." (The assault Phase chapter, Resolve Overwatch section).

Again I quote:

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit..."

INSTEAD of firing snap shots, flamers inflict D3 hits.
Do I need to define instead?

And yet again, you're cherry picking the rules. As has been quoted multiple times in this thread, from 'Resolve Overwatch':

Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

A Template weapon fires Overwatch, so by the above rule those shots can only be Snap Shots. Do you need us to define 'only' for you?

Angelic wrote:

Fragile wrote:


Again, the rule is applying hits, not the weapon. Otherwise you would place the template and count hits, which you do not.

So, when the rule says that when the WEAPON FIRES OVERWATCH, IT [the weapon] inflicts D3 hits, you are saying it's not the weapon inflicting hits? Even though the rule explicitly says it is? Wow.

I'm a little late to the party here, so this may have been picked up already, but..

Look at the No Escape rule. It tells you to resolve d6 hits against units embarked in open-top transports with the firing flamer's S and AP, but does not say that the weapon itself hits them. You simply resolve hits with the profile stats against the unit.

It's wonky, but there's a precedent for "The weapon hits you but doesn't hit you" silliness.

 Ghaz wrote:
And yet again, you're cherry picking the rules. As has been quoted multiple times in this thread, from 'Resolve Overwatch':

Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

A Template weapon fires Overwatch, so by the above rule those shots can only be Snap Shots. Do you need us to define 'only' for you?

The Specific Rules of Wall of Death override the General Rules of Overwatch. 40k is a game of exceptions EDIT: and at no point in the wording of it does it say they are snap shots. Instead, it actually explicitly uses the word "instead" to describe what Wall of Death is in comparison to a normal overwatch snapshot. Therefore, not a snapshot. Invisible units can only be hit by Snap shots, but I would argue that is overridden by the "automatically hit" clause in the wall of death wording.

 Ghaz wrote:
And yet again, you're cherry picking the rules. As has been quoted multiple times in this thread, from 'Resolve Overwatch':

Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.

A Template weapon fires Overwatch, so by the above rule those shots can only be Snap Shots. Do you need us to define 'only' for you?

Its funny because you are actually the one "cherry picking" here.

"Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots."
This is the restriction.

"Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit..."
This is the SPECIFIC EXCEPTION to that very rule. Its a very simple case of basic vs advanced rules.(pg 13 in the black box, last paragraph) The basic rule being Overwatch, and the Advanced Rule being Wall of Death. Since Wall of Death is the more advanced rule and takes precedence, we know that its is in fact, NOT a snap shot. (as the rule clearly states)

Ill make you a deal charge me please. Do this in a match with me and my sisters or blood angels in please with a squad has 2 flamers in it. Better yet do this at a mega huge torney and watch the TO laugh in your face and giggle when you argue with him.

Page 173 BRB under Template Weapons 7ed

But to this guys credit. While they do have a cool picture of the flamer template below the rule lol. They forget to actually say flamers in the rule for 7ed.

Mean while back in the nice 6ed rules book page 52 the huge one it actually specifies flamers and other template weapons oops.

Looks like we found another boo boo for 7th ed. lol




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So all weapons like plasma cannons, missile launchers, And flamers all get d3 hits or none do lol.

Fireraven wrote:
Ill make you a deal charge me please. Do this in a match with me and my sisters or blood angels in please with a squad has 2 flamers in it. Better yet do this at a mega huge torney and watch the TO laugh in your face and giggle when you argue with him.

Page 173 BRB under Template Weapons 7ed

But to this guys credit. While they do have a cool picture of the flamer template below the rule lol. They forget to actually say flamers in the rule for 7ed.

Mean while back in the nice 6ed rules book page 52 the huge one it actually specifies flamers and other template weapons oops.

Looks like we found another boo boo for 7th ed. lol




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So all weapons like plasma cannons, missile launchers, And flamers all get d3 hits or none do lol.

blasts and templates aren't the same thing.

also to continue the back and forth, I would argue that the "automatically hits" modifier overrides the "needs to hit on 6s"

Very nice arguments everyone. To help a bit think this.
A jetbike with a flamer declares jink so it fires snap shots. It gets charged. Does it get wall of death ?
A unit with a flamer is falling back and gets charged. Does it get wall of death?

I say yes to all cases. Because "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots." (First sentence on wall of death ruling, under the Template entry at the special rules section.)
Template weapons are not resolving overwatch using snap shots. They are the exception to the rule that overwatch is only snap shots. Invisibility is not preventing overwatch, so wall of death rule applies.

Seems silly to argue for an already OP ability to be even stronger. While I can't argue how invisibility works, I feel it should force attacks at BS1, not snapshots. It's a really dumb rule imo as in any other game 'area of effect' attacks (blasts/templates) are the answer to invisible gak, not negated by it, but that is beside the point.

But back to the dispute in question "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit."

there's nothing there that disputes the fact that overwatch attacks are still classed as snapshots. The 'instead' is there to change the resolution of hits, giving d3 hits vs rolling 6's to hit, allowing a template weapon to fire this very specific type of snap shot.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit."

If wall of death is a snap shot how can it be fired from a template weapon? The rule quoted above tells you template weapons can never fire snap shots. As has been pointed out several times 40k is a game of exceptions. Just because something happens at a certain time does not mean that it follows all rules for that time. When you move vehicles in the movement phase do you follow every rule in the infantry section on movement even though you are moving a skimmer? During shooting, if you shoot with a monolith do you fire at one unit per the shooting rules or do you use the rules specifically allowed by the weapon systems on the monolith to target more than one unit? These are just two of them that could be brought fourth to illustrate that you cannot use a restriction to define an exception. If you can then in the shooting above I can force you to move your two units into coherency as I can only fire at one unit so therefor it must mean they are a single unit correct?

I agree that WoD wouldn't be able to be fired at Invisible units. Much the same argument with Deathleaper (who can only be hit by snap shots...) which was brought up at the time of the codex release.

A snap shot is a shot resolved at BS1.
Is WoD resolved at BS1?
That is the only way to hit the invisible unit (And no, its a automatic hit, there is no BS used- WoD is in no way a snap shot).

When dealing with multiple rules you have to go through each of them.

You can only snap shot in overwatch.
Flamers can not snap shot, but can overwatch
Unit can only be hit by snap shots.

What you have is a restriction on the firing unit & restriction on the charging unit, can only be fired as snap shots (Overwatch) and can only be hit by snap shots (Invisibility). WoD overrides the first, rules specifically state you can use WoD in overwatch, however, there is nothing circumventing the Invisibility restriction and therefore it can not be used on them.

Is it powerful? Yes. Could GW change their minds or have not thought it through? Yes, but this is what the rules currently say.

 Nem wrote:
I agree that WoD wouldn't be able to be fired at Invisible units. Much the same argument with Deathleaper (who can only be hit by snap shots...) which was brought up at the time of the codex release.

A snap shot is a shot resolved at BS1.
Is WoD resolved at BS1?
That is the only way to hit the invisible unit (And no, its a automatic hit, there is no BS used- WoD is in no way a snap shot).

When dealing with multiple rules you have to go through each of them.

You can only snap shot in overwatch.
Flamers can not snap shot, but can overwatch
Unit can only be hit by snap shots.

What you have is a restriction on the firing unit & restriction on the charging unit, can only be fired as snap shots (Overwatch) and can only be hit by snap shots (Invisibility). WoD overrides the first, rules specifically state you can use WoD in overwatch, however, there is nothing circumventing the Invisibility restriction and therefore it can not be used on them.

Is it powerful? Yes. Could GW change their minds or have not thought it through? Yes, but this is what the rules currently say.

But WoD is not a snap shot. It isn't even a shot. It doesn't use BS. It is an auto d3 hits. It is a "special ability" used on overwatch.

I agree with extremefreak: Wall of Death is not a Snap Shot.

If it was, there would be more than one Snap Shot=Wall of Death just because you're in the assault phase.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

This works differently.

You have 2 permissions here in the Rule:

1) You have permission to fire overwatch.
2) When you do, you "automatically inflicts D3 hits"

How does invisibility counter any of these?
Does it deny "automatic hits"?
Would a Nova not hit invisible units?

Please quote the rule saying so if there is...

 humanas wrote:

 Nem wrote:
I agree that WoD wouldn't be able to be fired at Invisible units. Much the same argument with Deathleaper (who can only be hit by snap shots...) which was brought up at the time of the codex release.

A snap shot is a shot resolved at BS1.
Is WoD resolved at BS1?
That is the only way to hit the invisible unit (And no, its a automatic hit, there is no BS used- WoD is in no way a snap shot).

When dealing with multiple rules you have to go through each of them.

You can only snap shot in overwatch.
Flamers can not snap shot, but can overwatch
Unit can only be hit by snap shots.

What you have is a restriction on the firing unit & restriction on the charging unit, can only be fired as snap shots (Overwatch) and can only be hit by snap shots (Invisibility). WoD overrides the first, rules specifically state you can use WoD in overwatch, however, there is nothing circumventing the Invisibility restriction and therefore it can not be used on them.

Is it powerful? Yes. Could GW change their minds or have not thought it through? Yes, but this is what the rules currently say.

But WoD is not a snap shot. It isn't even a shot. It doesn't use BS. It is an auto d3 hits. It is a "special ability" used on overwatch.

It's still a 'shot' as it is a shooting attack, just it uses it's own method of generating hits. Instead of rolling to hit to generate your hits you generate D3 hits.

if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging
unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value

It's still firing, and using values from the shooting weapon.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I agree with extremefreak: Wall of Death is not a Snap Shot.

If it was, there would be more than one Snap Shot=Wall of Death just because you're in the assault phase.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

This works differently.

You have 2 permissions here in the Rule:

1) You have permission to fire overwatch.
2) When you do, you "automatically inflicts D3 hits"

How does invisibility counter any of these?
Does it deny "automatic hits"?
Would a Nova not hit invisible units?

Please quote the rule saying so if there is...

Whilst the power is
in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit

Is it a snapshot? If not it can not be fired at the invisible target. It denies anything which isn't a snap shot.

Snap shots;

In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

Why is WoD a shooting attack ?

 humanas wrote:
Why is WoD a shooting attack ?

If is isn't, what is the 'normal Strength and AP value'?

 Nem wrote:

 humanas wrote:
Why is WoD a shooting attack ?

If is isn't, what is the 'normal Strength and AP value'?

Quoting the WoD rule for clarity: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead,
if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value."

I can't understand why Wod is a shooting attack. It is an automatic d3 hits with the flamer weapon. Just like eldar mandiblasters is an automatic S3 hit, a Necron lightning field is an automatic d6 hits S8 AP5 and so on. An invisible unit would still suffer those hits, right ?

 Nem wrote:

 humanas wrote:
Why is WoD a shooting attack ?

If is isn't, what is the 'normal Strength and AP value'?

It's a Special Rule?

 Nem wrote:

Whilst the power is
in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target unit

Is it a snapshot? If not it can not be fired at the invisible target. It denies anything which isn't a snap shot.

Snap shots;

In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

So enemy units can only fire snap shots, but Wall of Death:"even though they cannot fire Snap Shots, Template weapons can fire (Overwatch)"
I have a permission over-ruling that specific restriction.
Does invisibility have a restriction on weapons that can fire "instead" of snap shots?

And invisibility protects from Novas? really?

Read through most of the stuff and super skimmed the last 4 or 5 post but the "Instead" part on the firing template on overwatch. Maybe the instead isn't talking about instead of firing snapshots but is tell you that instead of placeing the templace to measure hits? it's nearly 5 in the morning sooooo kinda loopy but someone tell me if this is a possibility?

Ok to put another way. Hammer of wrath is a special rule. Does it mean its not a CC attack? As in, you can take cover saves from Hammer of wrath? Grav weapon is a special rule, does that mean its not a shooting attack?

HoW causes auto hits, is a special rule and in separate passage is noted as a CC attack.

Nearly all 'attack' types fall into 2 category. Shooting attack or CC Attack, we always resolve them as one or another.

And I would say Nova's can not, based on the same reason they can not hit Swooping FMC's etc. The FAQ is not currently present but we all know the 6th ed one....

6th ed snap shot FaQ for reference:

"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

As noted this is a old FAQ - but it gives us the reason why, and no rules concerned have changed in 7th. [Edit] I lied, Nova has indeed changed to include hitting 'Flyers and FMC's', although not clear if that includes Swooping / Zooming ones as it's not specified, might have something to do with Automatic targeting? or they thought putting it in bold would just be enough /rolleyes