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 extremefreak17 wrote:


Right but in order to inflict those D3 hits, you must fire the weapon. Invisibility tells us that you must snap shoot if you are shooting at the invisible unit. WoD is not a Snap Shot, and thus has no permission to shoot.

Collapse works because it is not shooting. Invisibility only places a restriction on shooting and CC.

WOD -

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

Flamers can not snap shot, that much is clear, the rules for template say so in the first place, but a flamer can fire Overwatch Per the wall of death rules.

Wall of Death is a special rule that allows D3 automatic hits on the charging target, using the weapon''s strength and ap. Wall of Death is not a shooting attack, it is a special rule that activates through the qualifyer of being able to Overwatch.

Invisbility states that it can only be targeted with shooting attacks making snap shots. WoD is not a shooting attack, its special rule that generates D3 automatic hits, therefore Invsibility does not have any bearing, as you're not making a 'shooting attack' you're resolving overwatch using the Special Rule Wall of Death, which is not the template weapon actually firing.

Its akin to the No Escape rule, in which damage is done by the special rule, not the actual weapon, no flamer template is use, which is the normal shooting attack rules for templates.

Wall of Death, the rule is generating the hits, Wall of Death is a special rule thats activated by a qualifyer and is not a shooting attack, no hit rolls are made, no templates are placed.

I regret saying to humanas last time we played that ink not sure for his WoD flamed overwatching my invisible seekers... :-) if I didn't ask there wouldn't be such a huge conflict of opinions... Apart from the fun though, it is a big empty spot that is left unsolved.

Next question: can WoD be used by a unit that is falling back?

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:


Right but in order to inflict those D3 hits, you must fire the weapon. Invisibility tells us that you must snap shoot if you are shooting at the invisible unit. WoD is not a Snap Shot, and thus has no permission to shoot.

Collapse works because it is not shooting. Invisibility only places a restriction on shooting and CC.

WOD -

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value." (Special Rules chapter, Template weapons section, Wall of Death Sub-section).

Flamers can not snap shot, that much is clear, the rules for template say so in the first place, but a flamer can fire Overwatch Per the wall of death rules.

Wall of Death is a special rule that allows D3 automatic hits on the charging target, using the weapon''s strength and ap. Wall of Death is not a shooting attack, it is a special rule that activates through the qualifyer of being able to Overwatch.

Invisbility states that it can only be targeted with shooting attacks making snap shots. WoD is not a shooting attack, its special rule that generates D3 automatic hits, therefore Invsibility does not have any bearing, as you're not making a 'shooting attack' you're resolving overwatch using the Special Rule Wall of Death, which is not the template weapon actually firing.

Its akin to the No Escape rule, in which damage is done by the special rule, not the actual weapon, no flamer template is use, which is the normal shooting attack rules for templates.

Wall of Death, the rule is generating the hits, Wall of Death is a special rule thats activated by a qualifyer and is not a shooting attack, no hit rolls are made, no templates are placed.

WoD is a rule in which flamers a grated permission to Overwatch.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

Overwatch is a Shooting attack.

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack..."

Flamer is Overwatching.
Flamer is making a shooting attack against an invisible unit.
D3 auto hits are not snap shots.
Flamer is restricted from shooting.

Invisibility trumps wall of death every day of the week.

You guys have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you're talking about!

 extremefreak17 wrote:


WoD is a rule in which flamers a grated permission to Overwatch.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

Overwatch is a Shooting attack.

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack..."

Flamer is Overwatching.
Flamer is making a shooting attack against an invisible unit.
D3 auto hits are not snap shots.
Flamer is restricted from shooting.

Auto hits, auto hit, hence why they're called auto hits, there are no "to hit" rolls being made

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack"

So you're saying that you need to roll to hit with WoD as a 'normal shooting attack" even though it states it deals D3 automatic hits to the assaulting unit. If you're arguing that, then flamers are NEVER allowed to Wall of Death, as they cant be 'shot normally' durring any type of Overwatch.

Flamer is Overwatching
Flamer is using rule Wall of Death to overwatch which doesnt target and make attack rolls, but INSTEAD deals D3 automatic hits to the assaulting unit per the rules of Wall of Death
D3 auto hits, auto hit, no "normal shooting attack" is being made, snap shots dont come into effect, a Wall of Death rule is being invoked
Flamer can use Wall of Death

 WingWong wrote:
Invisibility trumps wall of death every day of the week.

You guys have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you're talking about!

Very convincing argument you have there, perhaps you could have saved us all trouble posting this earlier

Glad to be of help

:tips hat:

Flamer is not making a shooting attack vs a charging unit. If it were, you would have to use the template, which you do not, and you would not be able to wound models out of range, which you can. Flame is generating d3 auto-hits via a special rule that is activated when its' unit is assaulted.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:


WoD is a rule in which flamers a grated permission to Overwatch.

"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."

Overwatch is a Shooting attack.

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack..."

Flamer is Overwatching.
Flamer is making a shooting attack against an invisible unit.
D3 auto hits are not snap shots.
Flamer is restricted from shooting.

Auto hits, auto hit, hence why they're called auto hits, there are no "to hit" rolls being made

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack"

So you're saying that you need to roll to hit with WoD as a 'normal shooting attack" even though it states it deals D3 automatic hits to the assaulting unit. If you're arguing that, then flamers are NEVER allowed to Wall of Death, as they cant be 'shot normally' durring any type of Overwatch.

Flamer is Overwatching
Flamer is using rule Wall of Death to overwatch which doesnt target and make attack rolls, but INSTEAD deals D3 automatic hits to the assaulting unit per the rules of Wall of Death
D3 auto hits, auto hit, no "normal shooting attack" is being made, snap shots dont come into effect, a Wall of Death rule is being invoked
Flamer can use Wall of Death

 WingWong wrote:
Invisibility trumps wall of death every day of the week.

You guys have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you're talking about!

Very convincing argument you have there, perhaps you could have saved us all trouble posting this earlier

No I never said you roll to hit. There are plenty of "normal shooting attacks" that don't roll to hit. Flamers, Blasts, etc.

It is very simple. Is Wall of Death a shooting attack? Yes, as it is Overwatch and follows the normal rules for shooting, with one exception which is clearly listed in the WoD rule. (D3 Auto hits)

Is this shooting attack directed at an invisible unit? Yes, Overwatch always targets the charhing unit.

Is this WoD shooting attack a snap shot? No, WoD clearly says it is not.

Since it is not a snapshot, the flamer does not have permission to fire on the invisible unit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amiricle wrote:
Flamer is not making a shooting attack vs a charging unit. If it were, you would have to use the template, which you do not, and you would not be able to wound models out of range, which you can. Flame is generating d3 auto-hits via a special rule that is activated when its' unit is assaulted.

This is Wrong. I have already given you the relevant quotes.

Yes WoD is a special rule that generates D3 hits. However, as detailed in the rule, WoD is how flamers FIRE Overwatch. Per the rule, If you are using WoD, you are firing overwatch. Overwatch, is resolved as a shooting attack. Shooting attacks need to snap shoot to hit invisible units.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 Amiricle wrote:
Flamer is not making a shooting attack vs a charging unit. If it were, you would have to use the template, which you do not, and you would not be able to wound models out of range, which you can. Flame is generating d3 auto-hits via a special rule that is activated when its' unit is assaulted.

This is Wrong. I have already given you the relevant quotes.

Yes WoD is a special rule that generates D3 hits. However, as detailed in the rule, WoD is how flamers FIRE Overwatch. Per the rule, If you are using WoD, you are firing overwatch. Overwatch, is resolved as a shooting attack. Shooting attacks need to snap shoot to hit invisible units.

Overwatch is how wall of death gets activated. To FIRE Overwatch you have to make snapshots. A flamer cannot make snapshots so cannot resolve that shooting attack and cannot resolve overwatch normally.. You activate a flamers wall of death rule when you declare an assault against it receiving d3 hits. There is no firing, no snapshooting, no shooting attack, you are just hit.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


No I never said you roll to hit. There are plenty of "normal shooting attacks" that don't roll to hit. Flamers, Blasts, etc.

It is very simple. Is Wall of Death a shooting attack? Yes, as it is Overwatch and follows the normal rules for shooting, with one exception which is clearly listed in the WoD rule. (D3 Auto hits)

Is this shooting attack directed at an invisible unit? Yes, Overwatch always targets the charhing unit.

Is this WoD shooting attack a snap shot? No, WoD clearly says it is not.

Since it is not a snapshot, the flamer does not have permission to fire on the invisible unit.

Those "Normal shooting attacks" that dont roll to hit you mentioned (Flamers, blasts) can not be fired as snap shots, thus a flamer can not Overwatch using a "normal shooting attack"

Its given the Wall of Death rule to allow it to Overwatch. Therefore Wall of death is not a "normal shooting attack", no template is placed, no attack rolls are made

Therefor since its not a "normal shooting attack" as Overwatch would normally specify, its using the Wall of Death rule to generate hits.

Hits are being generated from Wall of Death, which is given permission from the act of Overwatching, not the Overwatch "Normal attack" process.

Therefore Wall of Death is usable on Invisbile targets, as the restrictions of "shooting attacks required to make Snap Shots" is not met, as Wall of Death is a special rule generating hits, not a shooting attack.

Again the Flamer "Normal Shooting rules" are not being used, no template is being placed, no attack rolls are made.

So many things wrong with this.

WoD is a normal shooting attack. The rules are clear on this.
WoD is Overwatch. Overwatch from any weapon is a normal shooting attack.
These two statements are clearly stated in the rules. You might Disagree, but these are actually written in the book, as i have quoted many times above.

Its given the Wall of Death rule to allow it to Overwatch. Therefore Wall of death is not a "normal shooting attack", no template is placed, no attack rolls are made

This is not written anywhere in the book.

To sum it up again. WoD is a normal shooting attack (Overwatch) with a single change to the "hit" mechanic.
Just like firing a blast weapon.
Blast weapons are normal shooting attacks with a single change to the "hit" mechanic.

WoD is given specific permission to fire Overwatch, which is listed as a normal shooting attack. However, neither blasts, or WoD are given permission to snap shoot, and thus can not hit invisible units.

You can go on and on about how you think WoD is not a shooting attack, but the fact is you have zero rules support for this assertion. The rules are pretty clear here, and the quotes that I have given show just that.

Wall of death is a special rule, specifically called out as that under "Template Weapons" page 173.

Quote from page 173 "Don't worry about comparing the lenght of the template, with the distance to the enemy. If the charge is successful, it doesn't matter anyway. If the charge failed, we can assume that the enemy ran into the range of the template and were driven back"
How is that anything like a normal shooting attack? A normal shooting attack would use the template to see how many are hit, and if you would only be able to wound the models in range.

Overwatch is listed as a shooting attack, yes, and no one is argueing that. It is also listed as a snapshot. Wall of death is not a normal overwatch as you have posted many times to deny its resolution as a snapshot. It is activated on overwatch, but does not follow normal overwatch protocol.

You are not even firing the hits are just automatic. So WoD should hit invisible. Invisible or not play with fire and get burned

Flame template weapons cause d3 wounds in an overwatch scenario. I would think this same rule would apply for invisibility.

 Amiricle wrote:
Wall of death is a special rule, specifically called out as that under "Template Weapons" page 173.

Quote from page 173 "Don't worry about comparing the lenght of the template, with the distance to the enemy. If the charge is successful, it doesn't matter anyway. If the charge failed, we can assume that the enemy ran into the range of the template and were driven back"
How is that anything like a normal shooting attack? A normal shooting attack would use the template to see how many are hit, and if you would only be able to wound the models in range.

Overwatch is listed as a shooting attack, yes, and no one is argueing that. It is also listed as a snapshot. Wall of death is not a normal overwatch as you have posted many times to deny its resolution as a snapshot. It is activated on overwatch, but does not follow normal overwatch protocol.

The template has literally nothing to do with this debate.

Overwatch is NOT listed as a snap shot. You make snap shots in Overwatch. BIG difference.

It does not matter if WoD is a "normal overwatatch" (which is not actually defined in the rules). The rules don't care if you are firing a pink Overwatch, a blue Overwatch, a half Overwatch, or a full Overwatch. Whatever type of Overwatch you want to personally list WoD as is irrelevant. No matter what type it is, it is still overwatch, and follows the rules for a normal shooting attack. (which would include the way a normal shooting attack interacts with Invisibility, or any other rule in the game for that matter.) The only differences between a "standard" Overwatch and WoD are the things SPECIFICALLY listed in the rule. (As the interaction with Invisibility is not listed we must treat that interaction as a normal shooting attack per the rules for Overwatch.)

You should be happy with d3 auto hits since you could argue flamers ignore cover which should include invisibility.

Page 45 BRB, 2nd column, 3rd paragraph: "Any shots fired as overwatch can only be fired as snapshots"
Its even bolded in the BRB so it'll be easy to find.

 Amiricle wrote:
Page 45 BRB, 2nd column, 3rd paragraph: "Any shots fired as overwatch can only be fired as snapshots"
Its even bolded in the BRB so it'll be easy to find.

Since this has been covered at least three times I won't bother requoting where, in WoD, it states WoD can't be snap fire. It doesn't matter about the hits, they are irrelevent in the end. You cannot fire any weapon that is not snap firing at an invisible unit. Template states you can never fire them as snap fire.

Gravmyr wrote:

 Amiricle wrote:
Page 45 BRB, 2nd column, 3rd paragraph: "Any shots fired as overwatch can only be fired as snapshots"
Its even bolded in the BRB so it'll be easy to find.

Since this has been covered at least three times I won't bother requoting where, in WoD, it states WoD can't be snap fire. It doesn't matter about the hits, they are irrelevent in the end. You cannot fire any weapon that is not snap firing at an invisible unit. Template states you can never fire them as snap fire.

You're not firing the flamer, you're using the Wall of Death rule to inflict hits. Firing the flamer would involve placing the flamer template.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


WoD is Overwatch. Overwatch from [b]any weapon is a normal shooting attack.[/b]

Page/paragraph where this is stated, Page 45 does not state "Any weapon" anywhere within the Overwatch rules

Page 13, Basic Vs Advanced, Wall of Death overules the basic restriction of Overwatch having to be snap shots. Wall of Death is a special rule that allows flamers to overwatch, it is not a "normal shooting attack" per the basic Overwatch rules, because if it were, it could not Overwatch as Flamers can not snap shot.

Page 173: Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots, Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit etc"

Page/paragraph where Wall of Death is not a "normal shooting attack", keyword "Instead"

Wall of Death wrote: Instead, if a Template weapons fires Overwatch...

The WoD rule seems to disagree with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What rules are you using to allocate wounds from the wound pool to the enemy models?

Gravmyr wrote:

Wall of Death wrote: Instead, if a Template weapons fires Overwatch...

The WoD rule seems to disagree with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What rules are you using to allocate wounds from the wound pool to the enemy models?

The same rules that govern any number of special rules that deal damage. Many of those are listed above.

Invis requires shots to be resolved as Snapshots - no Blast, no Templates,....

Overwatch requires shots be resolved as Snapshots - no Blasts, no Templates, except....

WoD allows Template weapons to automatically inflict d3 in the situation of Overwatch vs a charging unit. The snapshot-only constraint conferred by Overwatch AND Invis is trumped by this specific exception. For Invis units to be immune to WoD, Invis would need to override the WoD rule, which it doesn't.

My 2c...

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:

 Amiricle wrote:
Page 45 BRB, 2nd column, 3rd paragraph: "Any shots fired as overwatch can only be fired as snapshots"
Its even bolded in the BRB so it'll be easy to find.

Since this has been covered at least three times I won't bother requoting where, in WoD, it states WoD can't be snap fire. It doesn't matter about the hits, they are irrelevent in the end. You cannot fire any weapon that is not snap firing at an invisible unit. Template states you can never fire them as snap fire.

You're not firing the flamer, you're using the Wall of Death rule to inflict hits. Firing the flamer would involve placing the flamer template.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


WoD is Overwatch. Overwatch from [b]any weapon is a normal shooting attack.[/b]

Page/paragraph where this is stated, Page 45 does not state "Any weapon" anywhere within the Overwatch rules

Page 13, Basic Vs Advanced, Wall of Death overules the basic restriction of Overwatch having to be snap shots. Wall of Death is a special rule that allows flamers to overwatch, it is not a "normal shooting attack" per the basic Overwatch rules, because if it were, it could not Overwatch as Flamers can not snap shot.

Page 173: Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots, Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit etc"

Page/paragraph where Wall of Death is not a "normal shooting attack", keyword "Instead"

Pg 45 does cover it.
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack"
The part in bold includes ANY AND ALL Overwatch attacks. Whether it is a Bolter, Shuriken Catapult, Splinter Rfile, or a Flamer utilizing Wall of Death. The rule does not care what weapon is being used. There is no specific exception in the WoD rule for this. Without a specific exception, we know that WoD HAS to be a normal shooting attack, as it is Overwatch.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Pg 45 does cover it.
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack"
The part in bold includes ANY AND ALL Overwatch attacks. Whether it is a Bolter, Shuriken Catapult, Splinter Rfile, or a Flamer utilizing Wall of Death. The rule does not care what weapon is being used. There is no specific exception in the WoD rule for this. Without a specific exception, we know that WoD HAS to be a normal shooting attack, as it is Overwatch.

And again, 'wall of death' is not a normal shooting attack.It does not "use all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves, and so on. " (which is the rest of that sentence you quoted) so that argument is null.

 extremefreak17 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

Gravmyr wrote:

 Amiricle wrote:
Page 45 BRB, 2nd column, 3rd paragraph: "Any shots fired as overwatch can only be fired as snapshots"
Its even bolded in the BRB so it'll be easy to find.

Since this has been covered at least three times I won't bother requoting where, in WoD, it states WoD can't be snap fire. It doesn't matter about the hits, they are irrelevent in the end. You cannot fire any weapon that is not snap firing at an invisible unit. Template states you can never fire them as snap fire.

You're not firing the flamer, you're using the Wall of Death rule to inflict hits. Firing the flamer would involve placing the flamer template.

 extremefreak17 wrote:


WoD is Overwatch. Overwatch from [b]any weapon is a normal shooting attack.[/b]

Page/paragraph where this is stated, Page 45 does not state "Any weapon" anywhere within the Overwatch rules

Page 13, Basic Vs Advanced, Wall of Death overules the basic restriction of Overwatch having to be snap shots. Wall of Death is a special rule that allows flamers to overwatch, it is not a "normal shooting attack" per the basic Overwatch rules, because if it were, it could not Overwatch as Flamers can not snap shot.

Page 173: Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots, Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit etc"

Page/paragraph where Wall of Death is not a "normal shooting attack", keyword "Instead"

Pg 45 does cover it.
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack"
The part in bold includes ANY AND ALL Overwatch attacks. Whether it is a Bolter, Shuriken Catapult, Splinter Rfile, or a Flamer utilizing Wall of Death. The rule does not care what weapon is being used. There is no specific exception in the WoD rule for this. Without a specific exception, we know that WoD HAS to be a normal shooting attack, as it is Overwatch.

The Wall of Death rule is the exception, per the rules of Wall of Death and the key word "Instead" within the rule of Wall of Death itself. The Rule Overwatch does care, as it forbids weapons from OVerwatch that can not snap shot, but the Wall of Death rule overrides this Per page 13, basic vs advanced and the wall of death rule itself

Page/para that Wall of Death is a normal shooting attack and not a specific permission to preform an overwatch attack using the Wall of Death rules or conceded, as Nos would say

No rules you have provided exempt Wall of Death from affecting Invsibe units, you have failed to prove that Wall of Death is a normal shooting attack. Wall of Death is not a normal shooting attack, as it can not be resolved per the basic Overwatch rules, it has to be resolved per its own rules.

 Amiricle wrote:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Pg 45 does cover it.
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack"
The part in bold includes ANY AND ALL Overwatch attacks. Whether it is a Bolter, Shuriken Catapult, Splinter Rfile, or a Flamer utilizing Wall of Death. The rule does not care what weapon is being used. There is no specific exception in the WoD rule for this. Without a specific exception, we know that WoD HAS to be a normal shooting attack, as it is Overwatch.

And again, 'wall of death' is not a normal shooting attack.It does not "use all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves, and so on. " (which is the rest of that sentence you quoted) so that argument is null.

Except the rules don't say this at all. Overwatch is a shooting attack. There is nothing in Wall of death that says it is not a shooting attack. Wall of death is Overwatch. the rules are clear on this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Wall of Death rule is the exception, per the rules of Wall of Death and the key word "Instead" within the rule of Wall of Death itself. The Rule Overwatch does care, as it forbids weapons from OVerwatch that can not snap shot, but the Wall of Death rule overrides this Per page 13, basic vs advanced and the wall of death rule itself

Page/para that Wall of Death is a normal shooting attack and not a specific permission to preform an overwatch attack using the Wall of Death rules or conceded, as Nos would say

No rules you have provided exempt Wall of Death from affecting Invsibe units, you have failed to prove that Wall of Death is a normal shooting attack. Wall of Death is not a normal shooting attack, as it can not be resolved per the basic Overwatch rules, it has to be resolved per its own rules.

Instead is refering to, instead of shooting snap shots. Instead of snap shots, not instead of a normal shooting attack. pretty clear what the subject matter of that quote is.

Basic vs Advanced only applies when there is a direct conflict. Overwatch is is a shooting attack. Wall of death is Overwatch. Wall of death says nothing of normal/abnormal/non-shooting attacks.

WoD would need a specific mention of attack type to conflict with Overwatch in that regard.

It is you that are failing, that is failing to understand basic rule interactions in a permissive set.

WoD is Overwatch, and thus a shooting attack. Unless WoD SPECIFICALLY says otherwise, which it doesn't. D3 auto hits does not mean "not a shooting attack." there is no rules support for that.

Sorry if i wind back your train of thought.

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Right but in order to inflict those D3 hits, you must fire the weapon. Invisibility tells us that you must snap shoot if you are shooting at the invisible unit. WoD is not a Snap Shot, and thus has no permission to shoot.

I would explain this differently.
The Template weapon is not fired. It is intended to fire, which "instead" gives the enemy D3 Auto-Hits.
If the Template was fired, as posted by many, you'd have to place the template, measure ranges, Snap shoot (per Overwatch). All of which we know are impossible.

So when you run through the sequence and "fire the weapon", you suddenly ignore that (no Rolls To Hit, no range measuring) and "instead" inflict D3 Hits.
Can invisibility block/deny D3 auto-hits? I don't think so...

 extremefreak17 wrote:
Collapse works because it is not shooting. Invisibility only places a restriction on shooting and CC.

I disagree with it not being shooting only on the basis of Ignoring Cover saves.

Same for Reaver Bladevanes or a Mawlocs terror from the Deep.

I will not push this further than "Auto-Hits ignore Snap Shots" because Shooting and CC being the only to exist is an unending Philosophical Debate (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/586270.page#6669764)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 extremefreak17 wrote:

Instead is refering to, instead of shooting snap shots. Instead of snap shots, not instead of a normal shooting attack. pretty clear what the subject matter of that quote is.

We agree, instead of Snap Shots, so why would invisibility (Snap Shots) do anything to the rule?

 extremefreak17 wrote:
D3 auto hits does not mean "not a shooting attack." there is no rules support for that.

You claimed earlier that Terror from the Deep Bladevanes and Collapse are not Shooting or CC, why can Wall of Death not exist like that?

''if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3''

''enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the ta''


Its defiantly not a 'normal shooting attack', but it is indeed a shooting attack, you are firing a ranged weapon, that is very much a shooting attack.


Another way to look at it, if a Infantry Model has a flamer and a bolter can you fire the bolter and WoD during overwatch?

 Nem wrote:
''if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3''

''enemy units can only fire Snap Shots at the target''


Its defiantly not a 'normal shooting attack', but it is indeed a shooting attack, you are firing a ranged weapon, that is very much a shooting attack.

I believe that by RaW, only Shooting attacks and CC attacks exist, so i agree with you fully. (Link to the Debate as to why, above)
But how would you define "Overwatch"? In the " fires Overwatch" quoted above?

I would personally only go by RaW: "Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots.Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch."
Cannot Snap Shot = Cannot Fire Overwatch
Fire Overwatch = Fire Snap Shot
Fire Template in Overwatch = D3 Automatic Hits (you could extend = Fire Snap Shot, but we know "lost the quote" Template weapons cannot Snap Shoot)
In a way i am saying that
D3 Automatic Hits must = Snap Shots, ie those hits must be "a form of Snap shot" or you would break Overwatch Rules and Wall of Death Rules ("Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots"

 Nem wrote:
Another way to look at it, if a Infantry Model has a flamer and a bolter can you fire the bolter and WoD during overwatch?

Not sure i understand the angle here, all i see is: We are in overwatch,
Model chooses Bolter, fires the weapon(and all other models in the group too)=
- (auto)picks target
- Checks range
- Rolls To Hit (Snap Fire)
- Rolls To Wound
Model chooses Flamer, fires the weapon(and all other models in the group too)=
- does not pick target . . . . . . . . . . . \
- does not check range . . . .. . . . . . | Wall of Death - D3 auto-hits onto charging unit.
- does not roll To Hit (Snap Fire) . /
- Rolls to Wound

If the question is firing both, you can only fire 1 weapon, so pick 1 of the 2 lists above