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 WrentheFaceless wrote:
WoD grants permission for a template weapon to fire overwatch.

WoD generates D3 automatic hits

Nothing in Invsibility disallows generation of automatic hits.

Nothing in Invisbility allows a template weapon to invoke the rules of Wall of Death when being assaulted and Overwatch is declared.

Again WoD is a special rule which allows this, by the mere fact that the unit is assaulting and Overwatch is being declared

WoD gives the weapon permission to inflict D3 hits, as its rule states.

Nothing in Invsibility prevents this.

Invisbility does not provide snap shot protection as snap shots are already required for Overwatch to even happen in the first place, the unit has to snapshot regardless of invsibility or not, and WoD allows templates to Overwatch.

And I'm done with this thread, you have failed to prove Invisbility disallows Wall of Death. And the OP got their answer that they're going to use long ago.

I'm not sure how you are failing to understand that Invisibility disallows EVERYTHING yes EVERYTHING that is not a snap shot. EVERYTHING includes WoD. WoD would need a SPECIFIC EXCEPTION that calls out Invisibility BY NAME in order to override it.

Do you not understand what a specific exception is?

Is WoD a snapshot?

Yes or no. Then move on

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Is WoD a snapshot?

Yes or no. Then move on

Exactly.

can we pretend to place the bs1 restriction (snap shots) to WoD thereby making its firers BS1 ( not that it matters ) and go on inflicting the d3 auto hits now ? Is there something that prevents that ?

The only reason this argument has gone on so long is because clearly there's a vested interest in invisible seerstars and how they should be even more invincible. Seriously, this argument is so ad nauseam.

It is completely irrational to suggest that invisible units cannot be hit by the WoD because even if it is a shooting attack, it AUTOMATICALLY HITS. That trumps any restrictions that would normally be present.

In the context of another situation, say that blast that you "aimed" at a unit beside an invisible unit scatters onto it. Everyone under the blast is AUTOMATICALLY HIT. That overrides the rule that forces snap shots, because if that were the case, the entire shot would be retconned for breaking the rules.

This thread is really bothering me, especially with how long its gone on. Wall of Death is a special rule that exists outside the normal shooting rules continuum. It is explicitly an exception, and is resolved NOT with the weapons profile, but inflicts auto hits with its strength and AP (therefore no special rules apply, and it does not ignore cover). As such it is NOT a normal shooting attack that can be circumnavigated by Invis.

And that ravager fallacy is also really bothering me. They are different beasts entirely.

Invisibility states you cannot fire the weapon unless you snap shot. Templates cannot be fired as snap shots. Final answer no. Unless you want your opponent to pretend to take the wounds.


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People seem to be thinking invisibility stops the unit from being hit, it doesn't it prevents them from being shot at. There is nothing in Invisibility that says they cannot be hit.

Blog - before you get to automatically hit, you MUST have fired as a snapshot.

Is WoD a snapshot? No need for WoText, just a yes of no.

1)Invisible unit declares charge.
2)Charged unit declares overwatch
2a)Invisible unit may only be fired at with snap shots
2b)Any shots fired as overwatch can only be fired as snap shots (Page 45 - it's in bold) Overwatch meets invisibilities requisite.
3)Wall of death activates due to being in overwatch generating d3 hits.

There is no extra 'check' on WoD. Theres no checks at all (range, los, nothing) other than the wound rolls.

Wall of death special rule is even more specific than invisibility, and as such invisibility would need specific immunity to IT, not the other way around.

The only reason this argument has gone on so long is because clearly there's a vested interest in invisible seerstars and how they should be even more invincible. Seriously, this argument is so ad nauseam.

Not very helpful. Not only is this not true, but it would also be impossible to prove, and you know that they say about assumptions!

It is completely irrational to suggest that invisible units cannot be hit by the WoD because even if it is a shooting attack, it AUTOMATICALLY HITS. That trumps any restrictions that would normally be present.

This is not how restrictions work. When a restriction is set forth, A SPECIFIC exception is required to override it.

In the context of another situation, say that blast that you "aimed" at a unit beside an invisible unit scatters onto it. Everyone under the blast is AUTOMATICALLY HIT. That overrides the rule that forces snap shots, because if that were the case, the entire shot would be retconned for breaking the rules.

The reason a scattered blast works vs Invisibility is NOT because of the "auto hits," it is because the invisible unit was not fired at, the original target was. You only have to snap shoot if you fire at the invisible unit. This is the same reason why you can not Jink against a scattered blast.

This thread is really bothering me, especially with how long its gone on. Wall of Death is a special rule that exists outside the normal shooting rules continuum. It is explicitly an exception, and is resolved NOT with the weapons profile, but inflicts auto hits with its strength and AP (therefore no special rules apply, and it does not ignore cover). As such it is NOT a normal shooting attack that can be circumnavigated by Invis.

As I have said above whether it is a "normal" shooting attack or not has nothing to do with it. Invisibility only cares if the unit fired. The WoD rule clearly states that it is firing, also detailed above. Again, "normal" shooting has absolutely no bearing on this discussion.

And that ravager fallacy is also really bothering me. They are different beasts entirely.

They actually have an Identical interaction of restrictions and permissions. It definitively proves that a SPECIFIC exception is needed to override a restriction put forth by an advanced rule. A SPECIFIC exception would have to call out the restricting rule by name.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blog - before you get to automatically hit, you MUST have fired as a snapshot.

Is WoD a snapshot? No need for WoText, just a yes of no.

Instead of firing snapshots WoD has its effect...

 Amiricle wrote:
1)Invisible unit declares charge.
2)Charged unit declares overwatch
2a)Invisible unit may only be fired at with snap shots
2b)Any shots fired as overwatch can only be fired as snap shots (Page 45 - it's in bold) Overwatch meets invisibilities requisite.
3)Wall of death activates due to being in overwatch generating d3 hits.

There is no extra 'check' on WoD. Theres no checks at all (range, los, nothing) other than the wound rolls.

Wall of death special rule is even more specific than invisibility, and as such invisibility would need specific immunity to IT, not the other way around.

This is full of bad information.

I don't know how many times it has to be said but, WoD is NOT a snap shot. If you are not snap shooting, invisibility denies you permission to fire.

Both WoD and Invisibility are advanced rules. Neither is "more specific." However WoD is a permission, where as Invisibility is a restriction. Restrictions trump permissions; this is how a permissive rule set functions. Once a restriction is set forth, the only way to override it is to provide a SPECIFIC exception. The only exception WoD has is related to Overwatch, NOT invisibility.



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 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Blog - before you get to automatically hit, you MUST have fired as a snapshot.

Is WoD a snapshot? No need for WoText, just a yes of no.

Instead of firing snapshots WoD has its effect...

Right....instead...meaning it is not a snap shot.

Instead does not mean "counts as."

And why are you not allowing Wall of Death, since it is used Instead of firing Snap Shots, its like there is a specific exception for Template weapons and snap shots when firing overwatch or something.

It allows you to fire in Overwatch despite not being a snap shot which is an exception to the Overwatch rule not the snap fire rule. What does it say about firing a non-snap shot at an Invisible unit?

This is exactly like assaulting out of a drop pod in 6th. Did you allow that despite there being a specific exception for charging after disembarking?

It is an exception to the snap fire rule when performing an Overwatch attack.

What snap fire rule?

Gravmyr wrote:
What snap fire rule?

The one you reference in this post of yours:

Gravmyr wrote:
It allows you to fire in Overwatch despite not being a snap shot which is an exception to the Overwatch rule not the snap fire rule. What does it say about firing a non-snap shot at an Invisible unit?

This is exactly like assaulting out of a drop pod in 6th. Did you allow that despite there being a specific exception for charging after disembarking?

Good. Now what in the WoD states that it is an exemption to that rule?

Gravmyr wrote:
Good. Now what in the WoD states that it is an exemption to that rule?

The part about templates not being able to snap shot, and instead the inflict auto hits part.

You mean where it says you can fire it in Overwatch despite not being a snap shot. Entirely self contained to the Overwatch step. Where in that rule does it state that firing it in the Overwatch makes it a snap shot or that it bypasses all other requirements to snap fire?



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I also notice you avoided answering if you allowed SM's to charge out of a drop pod.

WoD seems pretty specific that it can be fired on overwatch instead regardless of needing to snap shot.

general rule - models have to fire at something with snap shots.

specific rule - weapon cannot fire snap shots, but my fire on overwatch (which only allows snap shots) instead of snap shotting it gets d3 auto hits.

specific > general.

I noticed you missed the even more specific rule of a unit affected by the invisibility power.

i notice you think that's more specific when its not.

One lets you only be shot at by weapons firing as snap shots.

the other modifies the snap shot process.


obvioulsy one is more specific, hint its not the one that has the rule its the one that's modifying the rule.


I will give you that the general rule is you roll BS to hit a model. A more specific rule requires that you have to fire snap shots, even more specific rule than that then goes on to give certain things the ability to bypass needing to fire snapshots and instead generate automatic hits under a certain condition.

There is no such thing as "even more specific".

You and your invisible buddies are running full-tilt towards a bunch of dudes. A bunch of dudes suddenly throw a wall of fire in front of you. They're not aiming at you. They might not even know you're there. They just know that *something* is there, and they're throwing everything they've got at it, which in this case is gouts of burning petrochemicals. They're throwing (burning) gak at the walls and seeing what sticks.

Do you or do you not run face-first into the fire?

In your opinion then a rule about firing a weapon with a type in a phase is more specific then firing at a single unit that has to affected by the power. You should also reread WoD as it does not modify the snap fire rule, it allows you to fire a weapon in a phase that it would normally not be able to.

 Psienesis wrote:
There is no such thing as "even more specific".

You and your invisible buddies are running full-tilt towards a bunch of dudes. A bunch of dudes suddenly throw a wall of fire in front of you. They're not aiming at you. They might not even know you're there. They just know that *something* is there, and they're throwing everything they've got at it, which in this case is gouts of burning petrochemicals. They're throwing (burning) gak at the walls and seeing what sticks.

Do you or do you not run face-first into the fire?

very poor analogy.

it implies any unit would ignore WoD.

of course theres no such thing as specific and general or even more specific. find where it calls out any rule as general or any rule as specific




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Gravmyr wrote:
In your opinion then a rule about firing a weapon with a type in a phase is more specific then firing at a single unit that has to affected by the power. You should also reread WoD as it does not modify the snap fire rule, it allows you to fire a weapon in a phase that it would normally not be able to.

it allows you to fire a weapon in a phase that would normally require you to roll to hit with snap fire.

 Psienesis wrote:
There is no such thing as "even more specific".

You and your invisible buddies are running full-tilt towards a bunch of dudes. A bunch of dudes suddenly throw a wall of fire in front of you. They're not aiming at you. They might not even know you're there. They just know that *something* is there, and they're throwing everything they've got at it, which in this case is gouts of burning petrochemicals. They're throwing (burning) gak at the walls and seeing what sticks.

Do you or do you not run face-first into the fire?

You should probably look that Yakface' sticky, logic is unfortunately not a core concept in a RAW discussion.


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How about you blacktoof Did you allow SM's to charge out of Drop Pods in 6th?

I haven't played a SM force myself since RT, and I pretty much immediately painted them up as khorne when I got slaves to darkness. So never played with drop pods, oddly also never faced a single drop pod army in 6th. I did only play about 12 games of 6th, oddly all but one were versus Ultras, not a single pod.

So tbh I cannot really comment on that question as I am not sure what the relevance is to the 7th edition question about models being able to fire their flamers against Invis units during overwatch.

You have two restrictions in both cases and permission to bypass one restriction in each. It is universally agreed that you need permission to bypass each and every restriction to perform an action. Since Invisibility is not addressed in WoD you still do not have permission to fire the Template weapon.

I think the flaw in your argument is that overwatch is not discussed in invisibility.

there is nothing saying it modifies or changes the requirement to snap shot for overwatch.

Wall of Death Gives permission to fire during overwatch (a time when you can only snap shot) even though template weapons cannot snap shot.

So we have a rule that modifies the general shooting rule, with a requirement to be fired at by snap shots.

and we have a rule that modifies the necessity to snap shot during overwatch with the ability to auto hit d3 times.

as there is no modification of snap shotting on overwatch for invis, without some statement saying that something other than normal happens during overwatch for invis there is no way that invis can modify WoD in regards to ignoring the snap shot requirement during a time when snap shot is required and allowing for the generation of d3 hits.

or do models on overwatch snap shot their snap shots against invis units?

This is not a logic illustration, this is a description of the abstract battle-condition that WoD is attempting to recreate in rules.

WoD doesn't care that you're invisible. It doesn't even really care that you're there (though the game has pretty much done away with firing wildly into the empty air), it doesn't care that the firing unit is not supposed to "know" that the invisible unit is there.

All WoD cares about is that the unit that just invoked it just took 1d3 automatic hits.

This is, potentially, better than the unit taking the normal barrage of Overwatch fire, which may be a whole lot more hits, and it's also a balance to the Invisibility power which, at all other times, is pretty damn sweet.