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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 13:13:19
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Between selecting the flamer to fire and triggering WoD. You would need to fire the flamer as a snap shot which you cannot do. You must meet the Invisibility requirement to fire at the unit.
As a side note the answer was no even before the FAQ clarification came out. It is a generally accepted premise that all restrictions must have specific permission to be avoided. Though you are at least consistent
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/12 13:15:05
ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 13:21:52
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Confessor Of Sins
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When you select the Template weapon (Flamer), you perform Wall of Death and begin to roll To Wound.
So you are at Step 3. Select a Weapon. You follow the Wall of Death rules and get D3 Hits. You now follow Step 5. Roll To Wound.
Snap Shots and snap firing are part of (and a sub-heading) to Step 4. Roll To Hit. Do i need to roll To Hit with a Template?
We are also skipping past most of Step 3. Measuring range and such. So you could almost say we are going from Step 2.5 to Step 5
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DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 13:24:06
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Invisibility states you can only fire snap shots at the blessed unit. Since you can't meet that requirement it can't be fired at the unit, it doesn't say if you roll to hit.
To use Nos' question. Can a template weapon fire as a snap shot? The answer is no. It doesn't matter that there are automatic hits. In order to fire the weapon it has to be fired as a snap shot per Invisibility.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 13:29:22
ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 13:28:09
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Rampaging Carnifex
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Gravmyr wrote:Invisibility states you can only fire snap shots at the blessed unit. Since you can't meet that requirement it can't be fired at the unit, it doesn't say if you roll to hit.
Does not 'firing' mean you can't select the weapon during step 3? In a normal shooting phase you can still select the weapon group 'flamer' when firing at an Invisibile unit, you just can't actually fire it. The WoD rule in Overwatch bypasses the entire 'to hit' process.
If you're arguing that you can't select the flamer weapon group due to Snap Shots then how would WoD ever trigger in a normal Overwatch situation?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 13:29:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 13:34:28
Subject: Re:Invisibility and wall of death
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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There are two restrictions here.
One that states you cannot fire a weapon at this point unless you fire it as a snap shot.
The second states you cannot fire at a certain unit unless you fire snap shots.
WoD says you can fire at that point even though it cannot be fired as a snap shot.
You still cannot fire at that certain unit unless you fire as a snap shot.
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ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 13:36:07
Subject: Re:Invisibility and wall of death
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Confessor Of Sins
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I think the entire argument could be phrased as such a question:
How do I apply the effects of Snap Shooting to a weapon that does not Roll To Hit?
Blast scatters onto the Unit. Total Collapse on the Unit. Wall of Death on the Unit.
They have all happened: The Blast weapon was fired at another target. The unit was in the building. The assaulted Unit fired Overwatch.
You will notice the RaW is "Template weapons can fire Overwatch" not "Template weapons can fire *while in* Overwatch"
All you need is the rule:"As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units, that unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker"
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on." Is added later (and notice that Wall of Death overrules all of these "rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on"
You have permission to use the Wall of Death rule "As soon as a charge has been declared", not after you've run through all the weapons options and checked range and LoS... And i'll add that "if a Template weapon fires Overwatch" covers the "you are limited to one weapon" argument.
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DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 13:39:02
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Actually you should double check that. Template weapons cannot be fired as snap shots.
Gravmyr wrote:"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit."
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 13:40:56
ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 13:41:12
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Regular Dakkanaut
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BlackTalos wrote:We are in overwatch,
Model chooses Bolter, fires the weapon(and all other models in the group too)=
- (auto)picks target
- Checks range
- Rolls To Hit (Snap Fire)
- Rolls To Wound
Model chooses Flamer, fires the weapon(and all other models in the group too)=
- does not pick target . . . . . . . . . . . \
- does not check range . . . .. . . . . . | Wall of Death - D3 auto-hits onto charging unit.
- does not roll To Hit (Snap Fire) . /
- Rolls to Wound
You are skipping where INvisibility kicks in... invisibility specifically says that if you Fire a weapon, it has to be Snap shots.
Wall of Death says it FIRES the weapon as d3 snap shots. It also says that those d3 hits ARE NOT snap shots. Since Invisibility has set an explicit restriction the only way for WoD to override it would be to mention it specificially. And since Wall of Death says nothing about Invis, it cannot override it.
Overwatch also limits you to snap shots, but is called out specifically by WoD as something it overrides. Since similar language for Invis is not present. WoD cannot override it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 13:41:59
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Bringing hits into it only clouds the waters as snap shots have nothing to do with hits, it has to do with the firing of the weapon.
Edit: Look at my quote above from the BRB it says you fire overwatch. It never in the entire process says these are snap shots and even goes so far as to say the weapon can never fire snap shots in the WoD rule.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 13:45:10
ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 13:55:43
Subject: Re:Invisibility and wall of death
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Confessor Of Sins
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It is simply 1 line: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."
They just can't ever fire Snap shots. But they can fire Overwatch, by doing Wall of Death. They don't need to Roll To Hit (so Snap shots rules are irrelevant), they just do D3 Hits.
When an enemy target does: "As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units, that unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker"
That unit gets D3 Auto-Hits at Step 3: Select weapon.
Why are you bringing back Step 4? There is no Step 4, and no Snap Shooting.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 13:57:05
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 13:58:36
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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It has nothing to do with the roll, you have to declare you are firing the weapon as a snap shot to even fire it.
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ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 14:03:10
Subject: Re:Invisibility and wall of death
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Regular Dakkanaut
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BlackTalos wrote:It is simply 1 line: "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots."
They just can't ever fire Snap shots. But they can fire Overwatch, by doing Wall of Death. They don't need to Roll To Hit (so Snap shots rules are irrelevant), they just do D3 Hits.
When an enemy target does: "As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units, that unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker"
That unit gets D3 Auto-Hits at Step 3: Select weapon.
Why are you bringing back Step 4? There is no Step 4, and no Snap Shooting.
You're right, there is no Step 4, and in order to fire at an Invisible unit you NEED step 4. No step 4 means no fire, according to Invisibility.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 14:04:41
Subject: Re:Invisibility and wall of death
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Confessor Of Sins
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I can even run through the Shooting sequence with a Flamer model on invisible unit:
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Forced: Charged Unit
2. Choose a Target. Forced: Charging Unit
3. Select a Weapon. Select: Flamer. Wall of Death says i can select this weapon when i'm firing Overwatch. It states "automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging
unit"
4. Roll To Hit. Snap shooting: the Model is BS1 because it targeted an Invisible Unit
5. Roll To Wound. D3 Hits at normal Strength and AP value.
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DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 14:04:43
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Rampaging Carnifex
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I think I have been swayed against WoD working...
Let's remove the part of the WoD rule that is redundant and technically not state anything of value for a RAW discussion...
"Template weapons can fire Overwatch... if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit."
Mentioning that a flamer can't normally fire Snap Shots is redundant and only stated so that the reader knows why a template can't normally fire Overwatch. WoD overrides the restriction set forth by Overwatch.
Invisibility however is not overridden so a Template weapon can't fire at them.
In other words, WoD overrides restrictions set forth by Overwatch but not by other abilities. The wording for WoD still indicates that the flamer is firing ( if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit.) and therefore must meet all other restrictions outside of the rules for Overwatch in order to fire.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 14:07:57
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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@blacktalos What is the exact wording of snap shooting?
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ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 14:08:48
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Confessor Of Sins
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Gravmyr wrote:It has nothing to do with the roll, you have to declare you are firing the weapon as a snap shot to even fire it.
"Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots." I can declare to fire the weapon as a snap shot as much as you want, you can't do that in Overwatch, but you can Wall of Death. And it has no Step 4.
chanceafs wrote:You're right, there is no Step 4, and in order to fire at an Invisible unit you NEED step 4. No step 4 means no fire, according to Invisibility.
A scattered Blast template has no Step 4, how does it fire?
Total Collapse on a Unit starts at Step 5, how on earth can that do damage to an invisible Unit?
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DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 14:09:28
Subject: Re:Invisibility and wall of death
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Regular Dakkanaut
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BlackTalos wrote:I can even run through the Shooting sequence with a Flamer model on invisible unit:
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Forced: Charged Unit
2. Choose a Target. Forced: Charging Unit
3. Select a Weapon. Select: Flamer. Wall of Death says i can select this weapon when i'm firing Overwatch. It states "automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging
unit"
4. Roll To Hit. Snap shooting: the Model is BS1 because it targeted an Invisible Unit
5. Roll To Wound. D3 Hits at normal Strength and AP value.
3. Select a Weapon. Select: Flamer. Wall of Death says i can select this weapon when i'm firing Overwatch. It states "automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging
unit" And Invisibility says this can't happen unless you fire snap shots. Are you firing snap shots? No because you're skipping Step 4. Therefor You can't fire.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 14:09:29
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Confessor Of Sins
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"its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots" Automatically Appended Next Post: chanceafs wrote:
3. Select a Weapon. Select: Flamer. Wall of Death says i can select this weapon when i'm firing Overwatch. It states "automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging
unit" And Invisibility says this can't happen unless you fire snap shots. Are you firing snap shots? No because you're skipping Step 4. Therefor You can't fire.
Overwatch says you cannot fire unless you fire snap shots. Are you firing snap shots? You can't fire template weapons.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 14:10:51
DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 14:14:21
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Regular Dakkanaut
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BlackTalos wrote:Gravmyr wrote:It has nothing to do with the roll, you have to declare you are firing the weapon as a snap shot to even fire it.
"Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots." I can declare to fire the weapon as a snap shot as much as you want, you can't do that in Overwatch, but you can Wall of Death. And it has no Step 4.
chanceafs wrote:You're right, there is no Step 4, and in order to fire at an Invisible unit you NEED step 4. No step 4 means no fire, according to Invisibility.
A scattered Blast template has no Step 4, how does it fire?
Total Collapse on a Unit starts at Step 5, how on earth can that do damage to an invisible Unit?
A scattered blast template did not Fire at the invisible unit, it scattered on to them after it received permission to fire somewhere else. Invisibility is a denial of permission to Fire. That is why the blast gets around invis when WoD doesn't. They are different situations and as such you can't use one to justify the other.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 14:17:57
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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BlackTalos wrote: I can declare to fire the weapon as a snap shot as much as you want, you can't do that in Overwatch, but you can Wall of Death. And it has no Step 4.
Right there is the problem with your line of thinking, you cannot fire the weapon as a snap shot. You have to do so to fire at an Invisible unit.
that is not the rule in it's entirety it's the portion you are focused on.
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ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 14:21:45
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Round and round this argument goes.
When will it stop? Only Mods know.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 14:27:33
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Similarly, do you believe a unit can charge on the turn it arrived from reserve so long as it disembarked an assault vehicle?
There are 2 restrictions on charging... disembarking and arriving from reserves.
Assault Vehicle overrides the restriction of disembarking, but not that of reserves. The unit cannot charge.
Similarly, there are 2 restrictions saying you can only fire snap shots... Overwatch and invisibility. WoD specifically overrides the Overwatch restriction and provides an alternate method. However Invisibility still says the unit cannot fire.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 14:43:43
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Confessor Of Sins
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chanceafs wrote:A scattered blast template did not Fire at the invisible unit, it scattered on to them after it received permission to fire somewhere else. Invisibility is a denial of permission to Fire. That is why the blast gets around invis when WoD doesn't. They are different situations and as such you can't use one to justify the other.
I would really like you to point to me where the Invisibility rule states the part i highlighted.
Gravmyr wrote: BlackTalos wrote: I can declare to fire the weapon as a snap shot as much as you want, you can't do that in Overwatch, but you can Wall of Death. And it has no Step 4.
Right there is the problem with your line of thinking, you cannot fire the weapon as a snap shot. You have to do so to fire at an Invisible unit.
that is not the rule in it's entirety it's the portion you are focused on.
But you can never fire a Template weapon as a Snap Shot. How does it fire during Overwatch? Only weapons that Snap Shoot can fire.
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DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 14:59:31
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Gravmyr wrote:Between selecting the flamer to fire and triggering WoD. You would need to fire the flamer as a snap shot which you cannot do. You must meet the Invisibility requirement to fire at the unit.
As a side note the answer was no even before the FAQ clarification came out. It is a generally accepted premise that all restrictions must have specific permission to be avoided. Though you are at least consistent
this line of thinking also means WoD does not work during overwatch as thats a time you can only fire snap shots, but of course WoD states it may fire anyways during this time when you need to fire snap shots despite not being a snap shot. Automatically Appended Next Post: chanceafs wrote:
BlackTalos wrote:We are in overwatch,
Model chooses Bolter, fires the weapon(and all other models in the group too)=
- (auto)picks target
- Checks range
- Rolls To Hit (Snap Fire)
- Rolls To Wound
Model chooses Flamer, fires the weapon(and all other models in the group too)=
- does not pick target . . . . . . . . . . . \
- does not check range . . . .. . . . . . | Wall of Death - D3 auto-hits onto charging unit.
- does not roll To Hit (Snap Fire) . /
- Rolls to Wound
You are skipping where INvisibility kicks in... invisibility specifically says that if you Fire a weapon, it has to be Snap shots.
Wall of Death says it FIRES the weapon as d3 snap shots. It also says that those d3 hits ARE NOT snap shots. Since Invisibility has set an explicit restriction the only way for WoD to override it would be to mention it specificially. And since Wall of Death says nothing about Invis, it cannot override it.
Overwatch also limits you to snap shots, but is called out specifically by WoD as something it overrides. Since similar language for Invis is not present. WoD cannot override it.
the issue with this line of thought is your implying that if you fire during overwatch snap shots happen twice from each source. Being forced to fire snap shots from overwatch= the same as being forced to fire snap shots from invisibility at this moment in time as there is no such thing as doubling up on a rule unless it specifically states so, and I cannot find anywhere where it tells us to double up on snap shotting. So generally when you fire at a unit that is invisible you have to fire using snap shots, specifically during overwatch template weapons have a rule that lets them specifically bypass the snapshot restriction and fire causing automatic hits.
The restriction of snap shots only during overwatch is already present, WoD has permission to bypass snap shat only during overwatch.
So during this time WoD has permission to cause automatic hits even though models may only snap shot, without it counting as a snap shot.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/12 15:04:02
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 15:09:20
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Just as pointed out you have a specific permission to fire Overwatch despite not being able to Snap Shot. It does not mean WoD is a snap shot as the rule itself states that templates cannot fire Snap Shots. It means you have permission to fire Overwatch.
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ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 15:16:41
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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During overwatch the firing from WoD has permission to fire despite needing to snap shot during that time.
It do not need to be a snap shot because it has permission to be fired during a time that only snap shotting is allowed despite not being a snap shot.
Invis generally makes models fire at them using snap shots, a general rule under shooting.
WoD specifically bypasses needing to be fired as a snap shot during a specific phase for specific weapons with a specific special rule.
General restriction from a basic rule < specific permission from a special rule
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/12 15:17:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 15:23:31
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Discriminating Deathmark Assassin
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Which does not mean you can fire at an Invisible unit without firing Snap Shots. You can fire Overwatch, this has no bearing on having to fire Snap Shots. It does not say the weapon does not need to fire Snap Shots. Again. It is a generally accepted premise that to override a restriction you need to have a specific allowance. You do not have that in the WoD rule, you have permission to fire Overwatch not to ignore the restrictions on firing Snap Shots.
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ADD causes my posts to ramble from time to time. Please bear with me.
You're not a Time Lord stick with linear time.
Specific Vs General |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 15:31:44
Subject: Re:Invisibility and wall of death
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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during overwatch firing WoD gives template weapons the specific permission to fire when snap shots are required.
are snap shots required to fire on an invisible unit during overwatch? Yes.
can WoD fire despite not being a snap shot during over watch? yes.
Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots.
During a specific time when snap shots are the only shots allowed, this special rule can fire anyways trumping a general rule.
Pyschic powers are not special rules, invisibility is not a special rule, snap shots are also not a special rule. They are all general rules.
During overwatch when you are only allowed to snap shot at models charging, this special rule grants you the ability to fire anyways.
Whilst the power is in effect, enemy units can only fire Snap Shots
During overwatch you can only fire snap shots.
So an invisible unit charges a unit, they can only fire snap shots back.
WoD says you can fire your template weapon during overwatch (a step in a phase) even though it is not a snap shot.
So there is specific permission from a special rule to fire and override a general restriction from the general rules of a phase.
during the overwatch phase WoD may be fired when snap shots are required, even though it is not a snap shot.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 15:34:57
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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extremefreak17 wrote: jreilly89 wrote:First, they're not just my views, pretty sure half of this thread disagrees with you. Second, if it's SO CLEAR, why is the thread still going and no one can come to an agreement?
Lack of basic understanding in the fields of English grammar and principles of a permissive rule set.
The grammar in the relevant rules can only be correctly read one way. The same goes for the interaction between the permissions and restrictions discussed. Would you like several specific examples of why your "half of the thread's" views would invalidate almost every interaction of special rules in the game? I can provide these if necessary.
That's hilarious, because reading it the correct way, WoD does hit Invisible units. Feel free to provide your examples, because I disagree. This is a much better explanation.
WrentheFaceless wrote:If you're going to start using 'basic grammar' (which you have conveniently not mentioned other parts of the rule) as a defense instead of actual rules.
Then how does Invsibility prevent "Automatic hits" grammatically or by definition?
As for the Instead portion:
Templates can not fire snap shots, Templates can fire overwatch using the LOD rule
Instead of snap shooting (which it can not do) it inflicts D3 automatic hits.
Nothing in the rules of Invisbility prevents this, as a "normal shooting attack" (weapon skill, to hit rolls, placement of template) is being made nor even a normal Overwatch (snap shots) being made.
Wall of Death therefore, can hit Invisbile units if they're being assaulted, and therefore being Overwatched.
"Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapon fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits..."
Again you have failed to prove Invsibility disallows Wall of Death, through rules or even 'grammar'
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/12 15:38:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/09/12 15:36:47
Subject: Invisibility and wall of death
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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extremefreak17 wrote: jreilly89 wrote:First, they're not just my views, pretty sure half of this thread disagrees with you. Second, if it's SO CLEAR, why is the thread still going and no one can come to an agreement?
Lack of basic understanding in the fields of English grammar and principles of a permissive rule set.
The grammar in the relevant rules can only be correctly read one way. The same goes for the interaction between the permissions and restrictions discussed. Would you like several specific examples of why your "half of the thread's" views would invalidate almost every interaction of special rules in the game? I can provide these if necessary.
go ahead and provide them.
But first show us how Invisibility, or snap shots are special rules, as they are not.
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