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I just got through watching a Mini War Gaming video and thought I saw a Nob with a PK charge a SM Attack Bike and NOT cause an ID wound to it? How could this be if it had Furious Charge?

Aren't you supposed to factor in the +1 str from Furious Charge before you double your Strength Characteristic? Did they do this wrong?

You (somewhat) follow PEDMAS, BODMAS, BIDMAS, or whatever else they teach now.
You do Multiplication first, then addition and Subtraction, then set values.

Multiple Modifiers in the Rulebook. (page 8 in the dead-tree version)
Also, MWG don't always get everything right. For example, in 6th ed, they did saves then LO,S! rolls (after the FAQ to change it).

You always multiply then add unless stated otherwise, it follows the basic laws of maths. So S9 for the Nob, (4x2)+1. The brackets aren't needed but it demonstrates the principle.

Perhaps I dont see enough Nobs making it into combat to actually witness it more often. For some reason I was under the impression you were to add to your base characteristic before consoling your weapons profile (In this case beingstr 5 on the charge then x 2 being 10) Oh well, thanks guys! Guess I gotta see more successful Ork Nobs on the charge XD

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Perhaps I dont see enough Nobs making it into combat to actually witness it more often. For some reason I was under the impression you were to add to your base characteristic before consoling your weapons profile (In this case beingstr 5 on the charge then x 2 being 10) Oh well, thanks guys! Guess I gotta see more successful Ork Nobs on the charge XD

The only way it'd work that way is if it modified your base strength, like the Thunderwolf whatsit from the SW 'dex does.
^_^

I see lots get into combat with me. For a few moments.

if you follow "space wolf player" math with thunder wolves than nobs are str10 on the charge.

feel free to make ork nobz with pks str10 on the charge against any space wolf player with thunderwolves that thinks they are str10 on the charge.

Yeah, it would be nice if they were strength 10! Sadly, the only thing I had in my army that could instant kill an attack bike was my war boss as he's base strength 5, but he was busy krumpin Mathias!

Well if we look at the wordiing...

Furious Charge:
"In a turn in which a model with this special rule charges into combat, it adds +1 to its Strength characteristic until the end of the Assault phase."

I'd say that's a good argument for PK's being (4+1)*2, since Furious Charge is modifying the "Strength characteristic", it's not "attacks made are at +1 strength", it actually modifies the characteristic itself. The weapon on the other hand does not modify the characteristic, you aren't actually changing the model's strength, the weapon it has it's own strength which is = to 2x the model's strength.

Logically you'd add the +1 to the characteristic, and then resolve the strength of the weapon as 2x the now modified strength characteristic.

But then you have the rule about multiple modifiers:

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘double Strength’, its final Strength is 9 (4×2=8, 8+1=9). If a model with Strength 4 has both ‘+1 Strength’ and ‘Strength 8’, its final Strength is 8 (ignore +1 Strength and set it at 8).

So it is a bit confusing. But it makes the most sense to me to follow the "multiple modifiers" rule and treat it as 2 modifications of the same characteristic, so it (2x4)+1 rather than treating it as 2 separate things that are modified ("strength characteristic" and "weapon strength") in which case it'd be (4+1)*2.

str 9, the order is set in the book.

blaktoof wrote:
if you follow "space wolf player" math with thunder wolves than nobs are str10 on the charge.

feel free to make ork nobz with pks str10 on the charge against any space wolf player with thunderwolves that thinks they are str10 on the charge.

Thunderwolves are base S5, aren't they?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
if you follow "space wolf player" math with thunder wolves than nobs are str10 on the charge.

feel free to make ork nobz with pks str10 on the charge against any space wolf player with thunderwolves that thinks they are str10 on the charge.

Thunderwolves are base S5, aren't they?

They are. Other models (ICs etc) that get a thunderwolf mount as an upgrade are not though. They get +1 strength. Not str5. So currently thunderwolf cavalry with powerfist or thunderhammer are s10 and ICs with the same loadout are s9. In my personal opinion this is illogical and therefor not intended. Until gw faqs it its the RAW though.

A lot of people get that mixed up and just heard "twc with pf or th are s9 now" and parrot it on the forums instead of looking into the debate. Also if they happen to get furious charge (which is really easy through a relic or warlord trait) the IC with TW upgrade is s10 on the charge even under RAW.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
if you follow "space wolf player" math with thunder wolves than nobs are str10 on the charge.

feel free to make ork nobz with pks str10 on the charge against any space wolf player with thunderwolves that thinks they are str10 on the charge.

Thunderwolves are base S5, aren't they?

according to the wargear they have "thunderwolf" they are not base str 5.

of course if they put str 4 in the codex then people would argue they are str 3+1 from the thunderwolf.

but 5 is not their base strength, its the strength listed in their profile.

blaktoof wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
if you follow "space wolf player" math with thunder wolves than nobs are str10 on the charge.

feel free to make ork nobz with pks str10 on the charge against any space wolf player with thunderwolves that thinks they are str10 on the charge.

Thunderwolves are base S5, aren't they?

according to the wargear they have "thunderwolf" they are not base str 5.

of course if they put str 4 in the codex then people would argue they are str 3+1 from the thunderwolf.

but 5 is not their base strength, its the strength listed in their profile.

What they do have in the codex is 'a model upgraded to have a thunderwolf mount increases their strength, toughness, attacks and wound characteristics by 1 (these bonuses are already included in the profiles of models that have a thunderwolf mount as part of their standard wargear)

So imo there is no argument as a normal guy taking a mount optionally being s10 on a charge with a x2 weapon. It upgrades the characteristics of the model. Its not furious charge and only comes into play when you charge, its there as long as the model is alive.

no argument other than a bonus is a modifier and no where in the rules does it state that it changes the models base profile, or sets the models profile to x value.

also there is the whole issue that there is no such thing in 40k as changing a models base profile, but there is modifying a models profile by addition/subtraction/etc which has set rules. If anyone can find the rule for changing a models profile in the rulebook by my guest.

blaktoof wrote:
no argument other than a bonus is a modifier and no where in the rules does it state that it changes the models base profile, or sets the models profile to x value.

also there is the whole issue that there is no such thing in 40k as changing a models base profile, but there is modifying a models profile by addition/subtraction/etc which has set rules. If anyone can find the rule for changing a models profile in the rulebook by my guest.

Wrote up some post about why i think this interpretation is wrong. But then since my group decided to rule s5 base for all TWC riders i realised i couldnt care less.

the problem is the same reasoning means nobs are str 10 on the charge as they have s5 base for the same reason on the turn they charge.

Nobz are S4 base. They have furious charge, so recieve +1 S modifier on the charge. Additionally, a powerklaw doubles their base S. +1S from FC does not change their Base S.

Nobz with Klaws are "only" S9 on the charge, and any allusions to the contrary are the result of wishful thinking.

I mean, I wish grot prods could instant death chapter masters, but grade 4 order of operations says no.

EDIT: the rulebook also explicitly says no on the page "Models and Units" under the subheading "Multiple Modifier." So yeah. Cut and dry.

I'm actually surprised people think it's so cut and dry.

The multiple modifiers rule says:
"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic"

But a power klaw does NOT modify a characteristic. It has it's own strength that is = to 2x the users strength.

A power klaw doesn't double your strength, it means attacks are made at double strength. Furious charge actually makes you +1 strength higher.

Granted, I don't think I could adequately explain it to an opponent in a game, so I'd just do S9... but to me, the wording would suggest that RAW attacks are made at S10.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I'm actually surprised people think it's so cut and dry.

The multiple modifiers rule says:
"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic"

But a power klaw does NOT modify a characteristic. It has it's own strength that is = to 2x the users strength.

That still is a modifier

anything that changes a stat is a modifier, even if it puts it at a set value.

thats why arguements like TWC are base strength 5 are actuallly stupid, as it calls out it increases(a modifier) the stat with a bonus (note the word bonus, which means something more than the base) and there is no such thing as changing the base profile.

blaktoof wrote:
anything that changes a stat is a modifier, even if it puts it at a set value.

But a power fist doesn't change a stat, that's my point. A powerfist allows you to attack at twice the model's strength, it does not actually change the model's strength. Furious charge does actually changes the model's strength, as does TWC, they both specifically say they change the characteristic.

A S4 model with a powerfist is still a S4 model, if it had to take a strength test, it would test at S4 because the fist doesn't change the model's stats, it simply allows the model to attack at twice strength. However a S4 model under the influence of Furious charge is actually S5 for all purposes until the effect wears off.

no actualy a powerfist is still a modifier.

The brb clearly shows how it works. There is absolutely no room for confusion.

It has also been the same for about 4 editions now.


Thunderwolf calvery has its stats permanently increased and so swing at str10, but any str 4 model with a Powerfist or hammer only doubles their strength of 4 and then adds 1 for furious charge.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
anything that changes a stat is a modifier, even if it puts it at a set value.

But a power fist doesn't change a stat, that's my point. A powerfist allows you to attack at twice the model's strength, it does not actually change the model's strength. Furious charge does actually changes the model's strength, as does TWC, they both specifically say they change the characteristic.

A S4 model with a powerfist is still a S4 model, if it had to take a strength test, it would test at S4 because the fist doesn't change the model's stats, it simply allows the model to attack at twice strength. However a S4 model under the influence of Furious charge is actually S5 for all purposes until the effect wears off.

No where does it say modifiers are only for a model's stats. The Power Claw is modifying the strength of the the user's close combat attacks so still follows the order of operations for modifiers.