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Made in gb
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I have been reading a lot of fluff recently and came across some information that makes no sense to me.

A Tau smart missile system uses a drone system to guide them onto a target without the firer aiming.

Well then why do they fire at the BS of the wielder surely they should be BS2 like all other drones..

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 throwoff wrote:
I have been reading a lot of fluff recently and came across some information that makes no sense to me.

A Tau smart missile system uses a drone system to guide them onto a target without the firer aiming.

Well then why do they fire at the BS of the wielder surely they should be BS2 like all other drones..


Because it's the only instance of GW managing to portray that modern computer targeting systems are as good as (if not better than) a human eyeballing it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/09 23:22:53


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It just grinds me that a full size gun drone has bs2 yet a tiny drone system in a missile that is designed to explode is more accurate?

I mean come on Earth caste.. Put the little computers in the big drones!!!

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The computer in the missile only has to guide the missile to the target.

The computer in the Drone has to make hostile/friendly calculations, receive orders from command centers, report back to command centers, manage flying itself through hostile/ever changing environments, and finally shoot.

Its multi-tasking basically.

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See, heres the problem with that Grey Templar - The SMS picks its own targets, meaning that those little missiles have to also perform hostile/friendly calculations, manage flying itself through a hostile environment, avoid terrain, etc. etc. etc.

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chaos0xomega wrote:
See, heres the problem with that Grey Templar - The SMS picks its own targets, meaning that those little missiles have to also perform hostile/friendly calculations, manage flying itself through a hostile environment, avoid terrain, etc. etc. etc.


It doesn't pick its own target. The user picks a target and fires the missile. Then the missile does what it needs to ensure it hits. The firer doesn't need to aim, but he does pick the target and fire.

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chaos0xomega wrote:
See, heres the problem with that Grey Templar - The SMS picks its own targets, meaning that those little missiles have to also perform hostile/friendly calculations, manage flying itself through a hostile environment, avoid terrain, etc. etc. etc.


GW rules make a lot more sense if you rewrite it for them with your own fluff. An Assault cannon fires hundreds of rounds a minute. 240/minute is 4 per second. Unless a 6 turn game lasts all on 24 seconds, you've got to backfill some fluff into the rules to try and make sense of them. Instead, think of the assault cannon as spewing those rounds, but that the targets is dodging from gully to gully, behind tree trunks and boulders to hope the shrapnel that ricocheting around doesn't penetrate their flak vest or whatever. In reality, the lasgun would be a laser pointer that, when you are on target you squeeze fully to release the full charge. A conscript may not be that much worse with a gun than a vet, but his fear with make his hands shake more, causing him to miss. Pretty hard to miss and way more effective. My laser pointer's reflection is visible from miles away on a dark night and it runs on AA batteries. Anything that can melt armour at 100' range could melt it at 500' and likely 5000' as well before dispersion kicks in on a clear day. Similarly, dipping a toe in area terrain doesn't protect the rest of you, that's just the cut off that says for game purposes if your guy is quick enough to dodge to a pile of rubble for cover.

So think of it as the SMS is NOT more accurate. It's just firing explosive flechettes to saturate the area. The SMS is just an xray motion detector that lobs a dozen small grenades into an area.

Now the burst cannon doesn't make sense, because it is always inferior to the SMS :p That's the 1865 gatling gun vs a modern one. Never makes sense (in battle) to use it instead.

   
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RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
See, heres the problem with that Grey Templar - The SMS picks its own targets, meaning that those little missiles have to also perform hostile/friendly calculations, manage flying itself through a hostile environment, avoid terrain, etc. etc. etc.


GW rules make a lot more sense if you rewrite it for them with your own fluff. An Assault cannon fires hundreds of rounds a minute. 240/minute is 4 per second. Unless a 6 turn game lasts all on 24 seconds, you've got to backfill some fluff into the rules to try and make sense of them. Instead, think of the assault cannon as spewing those rounds, but that the targets is dodging from gully to gully, behind tree trunks and boulders to hope the shrapnel that ricocheting around doesn't penetrate their flak vest or whatever. In reality, the lasgun would be a laser pointer that, when you are on target you squeeze fully to release the full charge. A conscript may not be that much worse with a gun than a vet, but his fear with make his hands shake more, causing him to miss. Pretty hard to miss and way more effective. My laser pointer's reflection is visible from miles away on a dark night and it runs on AA batteries. Anything that can melt armour at 100' range could melt it at 500' and likely 5000' as well before dispersion kicks in on a clear day. Similarly, dipping a toe in area terrain doesn't protect the rest of you, that's just the cut off that says for game purposes if your guy is quick enough to dodge to a pile of rubble for cover.

So think of it as the SMS is NOT more accurate. It's just firing explosive flechettes to saturate the area. The SMS is just an xray motion detector that lobs a dozen small grenades into an area.

Now the burst cannon doesn't make sense, because it is always inferior to the SMS :p That's the 1865 gatling gun vs a modern one. Never makes sense (in battle) to use it instead.


Fluffwise however, it makes sense. Ammunition is easier, hold more, to carry, and it shoots dozens if not hundreds of rounds per second.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
See, heres the problem with that Grey Templar - The SMS picks its own targets, meaning that those little missiles have to also perform hostile/friendly calculations, manage flying itself through a hostile environment, avoid terrain, etc. etc. etc.


It doesn't pick its own target. The user picks a target and fires the missile. Then the missile does what it needs to ensure it hits. The firer doesn't need to aim, but he does pick the target and fire.


How do you explain the fact that the firer doesnt need LOS? Itd be quite difficult to tell the missile what its target is if youre unaware that the target is even there...

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chaos0xomega wrote:
 Grey Templar wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
See, heres the problem with that Grey Templar - The SMS picks its own targets, meaning that those little missiles have to also perform hostile/friendly calculations, manage flying itself through a hostile environment, avoid terrain, etc. etc. etc.


It doesn't pick its own target. The user picks a target and fires the missile. Then the missile does what it needs to ensure it hits. The firer doesn't need to aim, but he does pick the target and fire.


How do you explain the fact that the firer doesnt need LOS? Itd be quite difficult to tell the missile what its target is if youre unaware that the target is even there...

Sensor systems. You can't shoot at them, but you know wherw they are.

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Or point in there (ememy) direction and a friend or foe tag says if a target or not.
   
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Or fluffwise, they have drones or satellites feeding them real time info such they have a very good visual of the entire battlefield.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
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OR the regular gun drones are expendable, while the SMSs are important defensive armament for tanks.

It's like asking why American land mines don't have the fire control system of the M1A2 MBT
   
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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
OR the regular gun drones are expendable, while the SMSs are important defensive armament for tanks.

It's like asking why American land mines don't have the fire control system of the M1A2 MBT


Except the drones are in the missiles, not the launcher, and so are more expendable than the gun drones. A gun drone can survive a battle, a smart missile will not.

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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
OR the regular gun drones are expendable, while the SMSs are important defensive armament for tanks.

It's like asking why American land mines don't have the fire control system of the M1A2 MBT


Except the drones are in the missiles, not the launcher, and so are more expendable than the gun drones. A gun drone can survive a battle, a smart missile will not.


Then they're purpose-built guidance systems. The drones require an AI, whereas even in the modern world we can make terrain-following missiles. Therefore, given equivalent hardware, the missile will necessarily be better.
   
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Unit1126PLL wrote:OR the regular gun drones are expendable, while the SMSs are important defensive armament for tanks.

It's like asking why American land mines don't have the fire control system of the M1A2 MBT


Nah, the real question is, if drones are a networked AI that gets smarter the more units are linked into it... why doesn't their BS improve if there's more of them?

SMS can be explained by the fact that it's a micromissile launcher that shoots a cluster of boomb, networked together to combine their processing power and seek out the targets... as long as the same logic applies to Gun Drones and their BS jumps to 4 once there's, say, six or more of them in the squad.



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I think its the task they have to do, all an SMS has to do is single mindedly reach its target without flying into anything else first.

A Gun drone could probably do a better job of being an SMS if you strapped an explosive to it, however it has a more advanced and complicated things to do.


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Taffy17 wrote:
I think its the task they have to do, all an SMS has to do is single mindedly reach its target without flying into anything else first.

A Gun drone could probably do a better job of being an SMS if you strapped an explosive to it, however it has a more advanced and complicated things to do.


One fun thing to keep in mind is that in space, Tau *do* use massive self-guiding missiles and torpedoes (something that, according to BFG, the Imperium cannot/does not).

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People keep saying the drone AI can't aim because it has a harder job. So why not strap a missile AI to a drone, let the drone AI fly and the missile AI shoot?

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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:OR the regular gun drones are expendable, while the SMSs are important defensive armament for tanks.

It's like asking why American land mines don't have the fire control system of the M1A2 MBT


Nah, the real question is, if drones are a networked AI that gets smarter the more units are linked into it... why doesn't their BS improve if there's more of them?

SMS can be explained by the fact that it's a micromissile launcher that shoots a cluster of boomb, networked together to combine their processing power and seek out the targets... as long as the same logic applies to Gun Drones and their BS jumps to 4 once there's, say, six or more of them in the squad.


The extra brain power is used to not shoot the guys in the front of the squad. Apparently even in the grim dark dark of the far future, the traveling salesman problem is still NP hard.
   
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BS 2 twin-linked is more accurate than BS3.
   
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It makes perfect sense, the Smart Missile Systems in sense are fired by the wielder (Broadside for example) and the Drone Target System is what enables the missile to ignore cover or line of sight as the target has locked on to them either before they moved out of line of sight or while they are in terrain. In sense they are similar to some of the rounds and weapons fielded by our modern military today, however due to the tech heresy of the 41st millennium they are frowned upon.

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Alcibiades wrote:
BS 2 twin-linked is more accurate than BS3.


Indeed. Approximately 5% more accurate.

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 gmaleron wrote:
It makes perfect sense, the Smart Missile Systems in sense are fired by the wielder (Broadside for example) and the Drone Target System is what enables the missile to ignore cover or line of sight as the target has locked on to them either before they moved out of line of sight or while they are in terrain. In sense they are similar to some of the rounds and weapons fielded by our modern military today, however due to the tech heresy of the 41st millennium they are frowned upon.


I think the whole Necron thing is a reasonable basis to frown at AI, depending on the latest retcon of their fluff. We've all seen the Terminator movies. Having seen that, some might think it insane to arm robots and make them semi-autonomous. Asimov has a few thousand pages on why that might or might not be a good idea too, though this crowd may prefer Replicators from Stargate or Daleks/Cybamen from Dr Who?

   
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 lord_blackfang wrote:
People keep saying the drone AI can't aim because it has a harder job. So why not strap a missile AI to a drone, let the drone AI fly and the missile AI shoot?


The only response I have to this is "because the tau are too dumb." *shrug*
   
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RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
 gmaleron wrote:
It makes perfect sense, the Smart Missile Systems in sense are fired by the wielder (Broadside for example) and the Drone Target System is what enables the missile to ignore cover or line of sight as the target has locked on to them either before they moved out of line of sight or while they are in terrain. In sense they are similar to some of the rounds and weapons fielded by our modern military today, however due to the tech heresy of the 41st millennium they are frowned upon.


I think the whole Necron thing is a reasonable basis to frown at AI, depending on the latest retcon of their fluff. We've all seen the Terminator movies. Having seen that, some might think it insane to arm robots and make them semi-autonomous. Asimov has a few thousand pages on why that might or might not be a good idea too, though this crowd may prefer Replicators from Stargate or Daleks/Cybamen from Dr Who?



None of which is relevant to the Necrons, who are post-singularity organics, not artificial intelligences.



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 Furyou Miko wrote:
RAWRAIrobblerobble wrote:
 gmaleron wrote:
It makes perfect sense, the Smart Missile Systems in sense are fired by the wielder (Broadside for example) and the Drone Target System is what enables the missile to ignore cover or line of sight as the target has locked on to them either before they moved out of line of sight or while they are in terrain. In sense they are similar to some of the rounds and weapons fielded by our modern military today, however due to the tech heresy of the 41st millennium they are frowned upon.


I think the whole Necron thing is a reasonable basis to frown at AI, depending on the latest retcon of their fluff. We've all seen the Terminator movies. Having seen that, some might think it insane to arm robots and make them semi-autonomous. Asimov has a few thousand pages on why that might or might not be a good idea too, though this crowd may prefer Replicators from Stargate or Daleks/Cybamen from Dr Who?



None of which is relevant to the Necrons, who are post-singularity organics, not artificial intelligences.


And Daleks are just mutated creatures in a robotic shell, so not AIs either.

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 Grey Templar wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
BS 2 twin-linked is more accurate than BS3.


Indeed. Approximately 5% more accurate.


So what is this argument about? The nonexistent inferior accuracy of gun drones?
   
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 lord_blackfang wrote:
People keep saying the drone AI can't aim because it has a harder job. So why not strap a missile AI to a drone, let the drone AI fly and the missile AI shoot?


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