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And the backing out begins.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/battling-isis-britain-wont-rule-out-airstrikes-n200936

Turkey and Germany are not helping. You could have at least waited 24 hours to prove me right.

Inversely Syria and Iran are saying excluding us (especially when you're talking about bombing Syria) is a bad idea.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2752054/Iranian-Syrian-officials-slam-Obama-s-strategy-fighting-militants-shuns-support-mission-destroy-ISIS.html


Wow this is starting off so well.

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/us-war-isis-state-s-psaki-says-i-m-not-going-put-new-labels-it

 Frazzled wrote:
And the backing out begins.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/battling-isis-britain-wont-rule-out-airstrikes-n200936

Turkey and Germany are not helping. You could have at least waited 24 hours to prove me right.

Inversely Syria and Iran are saying excluding us (especially when you're talking about bombing Syria) is a bad idea.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2752054/Iranian-Syrian-officials-slam-Obama-s-strategy-fighting-militants-shuns-support-mission-destroy-ISIS.html


Wow this is starting off so well.

Germany wasn't asked to help, but it doesn't surprise me. They wouldn't have done anything.

I'm kind of surprised about Turkey though.

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/us-war-isis-state-s-psaki-says-i-m-not-going-put-new-labels-it

Cute!

 Hordini wrote:
What good would it do to antagonize the majority of Muslims who aren't extremists?

By not stating at every chance that Islam is the Religion of Peace™ at every chance.

*shrug*

I'm kinda ambivalent anyways because it's literally "above my pay grade".

If those we elected thinks that's the best stance... then, so be it.

 whembly wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
What good would it do to antagonize the majority of Muslims who aren't extremists?

By not stating at every chance that Islam is the Religion of Peace™ at every chance.

*shrug*

I'm kinda ambivalent anyways because it's literally "above my pay grade".

If those we elected thinks that's the best stance... then, so be it.

I think part of the problem is, a large piece of the American population doesn't actually know anything about Islam, and our elected officials are trying to make it clear that fighting ISIS doesn't mean we're at war with Islam, or that ISIS represent views held by the majority of Muslims.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So what does the first I in ISIS/ISIL stand for then?

Idiotic? Infamous? Impotent? Incontinent?

The possibilities are endless...

 Hordini wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
What good would it do to antagonize the majority of Muslims who aren't extremists?

By not stating at every chance that Islam is the Religion of Peace™ at every chance.

*shrug*

I'm kinda ambivalent anyways because it's literally "above my pay grade".

If those we elected thinks that's the best stance... then, so be it.

I think part of the problem is, a large piece of the American population doesn't actually know anything about Islam, and our elected officials are trying to make it clear that fighting ISIS doesn't mean we're at war with Islam, or that ISIS represent views held by the majority of Muslims.

Or, on the other side of the coin, perhaps many followers of islam dont realize how mysogenistic and backwards their belief system is.


Like it or not, there are enough muslims who believe in the ISIS type beleifs to take over a large part of the middle east, which is not an insignificant amount of people, nor is it the miniority. For every ISIS guy who takes up arms and is willing to kill/die for the islamic state, there are more "ISIS" people who adhere to that beleif but dont participate directly in the fighting.


Regardless of how the american population views islam, the fact is, none of the wars against islamic countries/groups were fought because the american people asked for it, nor would this change if everyone had the same knowledge of islam as they do say christianity.

Its a very small group of people, who damn well SHOULD know about islam, who are calling the shots.

Like it or not, the USA gets judged as a WHOLE on the actions of its leaders, and like it or not, ISIS has become one of, if not THE, dominant leader of the islamic world, and they will be judged on that.

In the Islamic world as a whole, they are the minority. There are people living in IS territory who aren't pro-ISIS but don't have the capability of fighting back.

There are secular and more moderate militias in Syria who have fought against ISIS, to say nothing of Syrian government forces.

ISIS is in no way the dominant leader of the Islamic world. That doesn't mean they are not a threat, and a quickly growing one at that, but there are several actual countries that have a lot more influence than ISIS.

 Hordini wrote:
In the Islamic world as a whole, they are the minority. There are people living in IS territory who aren't pro-ISIS but don't have the capability of fighting back.

There are secular and more moderate militias in Syria who have fought against ISIS, to say nothing of Syrian government forces.

ISIS is in no way the dominant leader of the Islamic world. That doesn't mean they are not a threat, and a quickly growing one at that, but there are several actual countries that have a lot more influence than ISIS.

I think you are missing the point,

If ISIS was such a small part of the islamic community, it wouldnt have the huge footprint it does.

the fact that it can dominate the region, with no one other islamic group powerful enough to actually challenge them, let alone oust them from power,

does in fact make them the most powerful group.

if these other countries you speak of have so much influence, why have they not used it?

if ISIS isnt the strongest group in the region, then why are they in power at all? why have these "moderate majority muslim" groups not ousted them if they are such a majority?

that is the very thesis of power, the most powerful group, is in power, ISIS in in power, ergo the most powerful group.

yes there are islamic groups opposing them, the lack of sucess in opposing them means they are less powerfull/numerous, not more powerful/numerous as you assert.

That is an interesting point.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:
So what does the first I in ISIS/ISIL stand for then?

It's pretty obvious tha he is trying to say these violent extremists don't represent all of Islam or even all of Sunni Islam and their actiosn are oppose to mainline Islamic teachings.

You can't alienate the Islamists that you want to fight the other Islamists.

 easysauce wrote:

if these other countries you speak of have so much influence, why have they not used it?

Honestly? Because they don't exactly like each other. They may seem like some united front against Israel or other common enemies, but thinking that the Middle Eastern countries are going to help each other with out a good solid reason as to how it benefits their country is showing a lack of understanding in their politics amongst each other.

 easysauce wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
In the Islamic world as a whole, they are the minority. There are people living in IS territory who aren't pro-ISIS but don't have the capability of fighting back.

There are secular and more moderate militias in Syria who have fought against ISIS, to say nothing of Syrian government forces.

ISIS is in no way the dominant leader of the Islamic world. That doesn't mean they are not a threat, and a quickly growing one at that, but there are several actual countries that have a lot more influence than ISIS.

I think you are missing the point,

If ISIS was such a small part of the islamic community, it wouldnt have the huge footprint it does.

the fact that it can dominate the region, with no one other islamic group powerful enough to actually challenge them, let alone oust them from power,

does in fact make them the most powerful group.

if these other countries you speak of have so much influence, why have they not used it?

if ISIS isnt the strongest group in the region, then why are they in power at all? why have these "moderate majority muslim" groups not ousted them if they are such a majority?

that is the very thesis of power, the most powerful group, is in power, ISIS in in power, ergo the most powerful group.

yes there are islamic groups opposing them, the lack of sucess in opposing them means they are less powerfull/numerous, not more powerful/numerous as you assert.

Iraq and Syria aren't the only countries in the region, and if we're talking about the Islamic world as a whole, ISIS' footprint is relatively small. The problem is the speed at which it is growing. The Islamic world is a lot more than just Iraq and Syria, and is a lot more diverse than many westerners seem to think.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

if these other countries you speak of have so much influence, why have they not used it?

Honestly? Because they hate each other.

thats one theory, one very far to one side.
"we hate you, so much so, that we wont help you get rid of our common enemy"

another more theory being,

lots of these countries hate ISIS less then they hate what they perceive to be "western puppet" regiemes.


Given that the people in the area have been polarized to the extreme by decades, spanning multiple generations, of the west bombing the feth out of their countries (well intentioned or not, it doesnt matter), or at best peacfully controlling them, Im not suprised one bit that support for things like ISIS is so high.

You realize that ISIS got a large number of its fighters by breaking them out of prisons in Iraq and Syria, right?

 easysauce wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
In the Islamic world as a whole, they are the minority. There are people living in IS territory who aren't pro-ISIS but don't have the capability of fighting back.

There are secular and more moderate militias in Syria who have fought against ISIS, to say nothing of Syrian government forces.

ISIS is in no way the dominant leader of the Islamic world. That doesn't mean they are not a threat, and a quickly growing one at that, but there are several actual countries that have a lot more influence than ISIS.

I think you are missing the point,

If ISIS was such a small part of the islamic community, it wouldnt have the huge footprint it does.

the fact that it can dominate the region, with no one other islamic group powerful enough to actually challenge them, let alone oust them from power,

does in fact make them the most powerful group.

if these other countries you speak of have so much influence, why have they not used it?

if ISIS isnt the strongest group in the region, then why are they in power at all? why have these "moderate majority muslim" groups not ousted them if they are such a majority?

that is the very thesis of power, the most powerful group, is in power, ISIS in in power, ergo the most powerful group.

yes there are islamic groups opposing them, the lack of sucess in opposing them means they are less powerfull/numerous, not more powerful/numerous as you assert.

Indeed.

While the majority of Muslims definitely don't share their radical beliefs, the majority at the very least don't oppose their radical beliefs enough to stop them. Which is almost as bad, if not just as bad, as if they did. And it allows them to propagate their beliefs among the impressionable youth of the various nations, meaning they are growing in numbers.

Isis
Islamic Brotherhood (Egypt)
AlQaeda in Yemen, North Africa.
Extremists in North Africa
Extemists in Central Africa
Taliban
Al Shabob
Somali groups
Chenyan extremists


How much of a minority is it at this point? There seems to be an awful lot.

The majority of Muslims from where? In Iraq and Syria, or the majority of Muslims in general? As has already been stated there have been clashes with ISIS in Syria and Iraq with both government forces and more moderate militias.

How are Muslims outside of Iraq and Syria supposed to stop ISIS?

If somebody said "Westborough Baptist Church is not The Church" would we be having this conversation?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
In the Islamic world as a whole, they are the minority. There are people living in IS territory who aren't pro-ISIS but don't have the capability of fighting back.

There are secular and more moderate militias in Syria who have fought against ISIS, to say nothing of Syrian government forces.

ISIS is in no way the dominant leader of the Islamic world. That doesn't mean they are not a threat, and a quickly growing one at that, but there are several actual countries that have a lot more influence than ISIS.

I think you are missing the point,

If ISIS was such a small part of the islamic community, it wouldnt have the huge footprint it does.

the fact that it can dominate the region, with no one other islamic group powerful enough to actually challenge them, let alone oust them from power,

does in fact make them the most powerful group.

if these other countries you speak of have so much influence, why have they not used it?

if ISIS isnt the strongest group in the region, then why are they in power at all? why have these "moderate majority muslim" groups not ousted them if they are such a majority?

that is the very thesis of power, the most powerful group, is in power, ISIS in in power, ergo the most powerful group.

yes there are islamic groups opposing them, the lack of sucess in opposing them means they are less powerfull/numerous, not more powerful/numerous as you assert.

Indeed.

While the majority of Muslims definitely don't share their radical beliefs, the majority at the very least don't oppose their radical beliefs enough to stop them. Which is almost as bad, if not just as bad, as if they did. And it allows them to propagate their beliefs among the impressionable youth of the various nations, meaning they are growing in numbers.

Until I see a picture of you counter protesting the WBC I should consider you responsible and a supporter?

 Frazzled wrote:
Isis
Islamic Brotherhood (Egypt)
AlQaeda in Yemen, North Africa.
Extremists in North Africa
Extemists in Central Africa
Taliban
Al Shabob
Somali groups
Chenyan extremists


How much of a minority is it at this point? There seems to be an awful lot.

You're right, there are a lot of groups in a lot of different countries.

Bloods
Crips
Trinitarios
Latin Kings
Gangster Disciples
Zoe Pound
MS-13
Surenos
Aryan Brotherhood
Volksfront
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.


Wow, there sure are a lot of gangs in the US. Why haven't Americans been able to come together and stop them? They can't just be a minority, it must be the case that the majority of Americans tacitly support them.

 Hordini wrote:
The majority of Muslims from where? In Iraq and Syria, or the majority of Muslims in general? As has already been stated there have been clashes with ISIS in Syria and Iraq with both government forces and more moderate militias.

How are Muslims outside of Iraq and Syria supposed to stop ISIS?

Turkey, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Qatar (oh wait they're helping them), Kuwait, Egypt.
They expect a country thousands of miles away to take care of it.

 d-usa wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
In the Islamic world as a whole, they are the minority. There are people living in IS territory who aren't pro-ISIS but don't have the capability of fighting back.

There are secular and more moderate militias in Syria who have fought against ISIS, to say nothing of Syrian government forces.

ISIS is in no way the dominant leader of the Islamic world. That doesn't mean they are not a threat, and a quickly growing one at that, but there are several actual countries that have a lot more influence than ISIS.

I think you are missing the point,

If ISIS was such a small part of the islamic community, it wouldnt have the huge footprint it does.

the fact that it can dominate the region, with no one other islamic group powerful enough to actually challenge them, let alone oust them from power,

does in fact make them the most powerful group.

if these other countries you speak of have so much influence, why have they not used it?

if ISIS isnt the strongest group in the region, then why are they in power at all? why have these "moderate majority muslim" groups not ousted them if they are such a majority?

that is the very thesis of power, the most powerful group, is in power, ISIS in in power, ergo the most powerful group.

yes there are islamic groups opposing them, the lack of sucess in opposing them means they are less powerfull/numerous, not more powerful/numerous as you assert.

Indeed.

While the majority of Muslims definitely don't share their radical beliefs, the majority at the very least don't oppose their radical beliefs enough to stop them. Which is almost as bad, if not just as bad, as if they did. And it allows them to propagate their beliefs among the impressionable youth of the various nations, meaning they are growing in numbers.

Until I see a picture of you counter protesting the WBC I should consider you responsible and a supporter?

Is the WBC slaughtering innocent people and committing acts of terrorism?

 Frazzled wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
The majority of Muslims from where? In Iraq and Syria, or the majority of Muslims in general? As has already been stated there have been clashes with ISIS in Syria and Iraq with both government forces and more moderate militias.

How are Muslims outside of Iraq and Syria supposed to stop ISIS?

Turkey, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Qatar (oh wait they're helping them), Kuwait, Egypt.
They expect a country thousands of miles away to take care of it.

The majority of Muslims in those countries don't support ISIS either.

 d-usa wrote:
If somebody said "Westborough Baptist Church is not The Church" would we be having this conversation?

I was one of these guys:


Yes, I protested prior to screening Red State.

I'm of the belief that this is the best way to protest... which is mockery.

 Hordini wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Isis
Islamic Brotherhood (Egypt)
AlQaeda in Yemen, North Africa.
Extremists in North Africa
Extemists in Central Africa
Taliban
Al Shabob
Somali groups
Chenyan extremists


How much of a minority is it at this point? There seems to be an awful lot.

You're right, there are a lot of groups in a lot of different countries.

Bloods
Crips
Trinitarios
Latin Kings
Gangster Disciples
Zoe Pound
MS-13
Surenos
Aryan Brotherhood
Volksfront
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.


Wow, there sure are a lot of gangs in the US. Why haven't Americans been able to come together and stop them? They can't just be a minority, it must be the case that the majority of Americans tacitly support them.

Are they all motivated by the desire to impose strict Christian law?

Now to be clear I'm noting two things: 1) Its their fight (countries in the region) not ours; 2) There needs to be honesty when we say "miniority" here. We can't fix the problem of radicalism if we don't objectively look at it.

Crips

hey I did my part.

 Hordini wrote:
The majority of Muslims from where? In Iraq and Syria, or the majority of Muslims in general? As has already been stated there have been clashes with ISIS in Syria and Iraq with both government forces and more moderate militias.

How are Muslims outside of Iraq and Syria supposed to stop ISIS?

same way the jihadis do their jihadi-ing....

everyone flocked to that area to support one group, why are not moderates flocking there to oppose it?

ISIS looks like they are migrating there, and breaking into prisons to gain supporters, what are "moderate majority muslims" doing?

are they migrating there to support their cause or not?

are they taking up arms to support their cause or not?

ISIS put the work in to get where they are, what has MMM (moderate majority muslims) done to oppose them?


the simple fact that, as you say, most MMM's are not even in the middle east, should speak volumes to how accepted/normal/"majority" MMM's are in the middle east (IE they are not accepted, and leave for this very reason)

 Hordini wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
The majority of Muslims from where? In Iraq and Syria, or the majority of Muslims in general? As has already been stated there have been clashes with ISIS in Syria and Iraq with both government forces and more moderate militias.

How are Muslims outside of Iraq and Syria supposed to stop ISIS?

Turkey, Jordan, Saudia Arabia, Qatar (oh wait they're helping them), Kuwait, Egypt.
They expect a country thousands of miles away to take care of it.

The majority of Muslims in those countries don't support ISIS either.

And they are not doing anything about it, either. Either the people or the governments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
If somebody said "Westborough Baptist Church is not The Church" would we be having this conversation?

I was one of these guys:


Yes, I protested prior to screening Red State.

I'm of the belief that this is the best way to protest... which is mockery.

Thos are true words, polyester really is a sin.

Moderate people, by the nature of being moderate, don't tend to do extreme things like travel to foreign countries to take up arms against a violent extremist group.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Hordini wrote:


The majority of Muslims in those countries don't support ISIS either.

And they are not doing anything about it, either. Either the people or the governments.

That doesn't mean they support it. Two years ago we weren't doing anything about it either. Was the US supporting ISIS for the last two years?

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
If somebody said "Westborough Baptist Church is not The Church" would we be having this conversation?

I was one of these guys.

Way to not answer the question.