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This will be a long operation of supporting local fighters and not a "US" engagement. Kind of like the beginning of Afghanistan where most of the heavy lifting was done by the Northern Alliance supported by US airpower.
At least that is my thoughts on it.
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After the election it will disappear from the news with occasional bombing. ISIS will win more territory but eventually halted when they hit heavy shiite areas. Kurds will hold onto a portion of their territory-maybe. On the ground the Turks seem fine with watching the Kurds get obliterated.
Syria will pound non ISIS guerrillas until there are no more then eventually turn on ISIS in Syria down the road. they want the population to have to choose between them and the crazies.
Meanwhile back at the Hall of Justice, Aquaman makes sandwiches for the other superheroes. Sandiwches made of Dolphin!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/22 21:12:29
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After the election it will disappear from the news with occasional bombing. ISIS will win more territory but eventually halted when they hit heavy shiite areas. Kurds will hold onto a portion of their territory-maybe. On the ground the Turks seem fine with watching the Kurds get obliterated.
Syria will pound non ISIS guerrillas until there are no more then eventually turn on ISIS in Syria down the road. they want the population to have to choose between them and the crazies.
The problem is when Syria loses, we're left with a large, hostile power, straddling major trade and oil production areas. Here's the thing, ISIS wants a fight with the US. The US options are to engage them in the middle east, or deal with attacks at home. I think we know which one that the US public prefers.
Sir Arun wrote: Except the only reason Americans lost the Vietnam War is because the public back at home pressured them into pulling out.
As long as the American public wont backstab the US military like that again, we can easily crush ISIS - not a matter of if, but when.
I would argue that the US was not fighting to win in Vietnam in the first place.
And, your line about the military being betrayed by the public has a certain uncomfortable feel to it. Like I should be hearing it in German.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
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The military was definitely betrayed by the public after the Vietnam war. They were literally demonized by an anti-war public, even though a huge portion of the military were drafted.
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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: The military was definitely betrayed by the public after the Vietnam war. They were literally demonized by an anti-war public, even though a huge portion of the military were drafted.
The mods will be happier if we simply drop this line of discussion now. I'll say I find it disturbing that you view it in those terms, and we'll move along with the discussion of operations in Syria and Iraq.
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Possibly one generation, after "cooling off" a bit, realized their anger was a bit misplaced, which is why we see the views on military personnel the way they are today.
Hmm... Seems Tal Shiar hill to the west of the town has fallen to IS again. That pretty much gives them the high ground around the town on the Syrian side of the boarder.
Also got some numbers on how many IS are KIA from US air strikes so far. Syrian Observatory for Human Rights in the UK is saying 464. Figuring Kurdish figures for how many killed and initial troop strengths and IS still out numbers the peshmerga about 2:1, assuming they haven't consolidated other forces in the area to reinforce.
Sadly, US also bagged 57 friendlies and 32 civvies. Not really that bad for airstrikes in an urban environment, but a waste all the same.
Edit: in other news, Turkey has authorized up to 200 kurds to reinforce Kobane. That doesn't even make up their losses by casualties.
Any thoughts on possible extractions?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 22:56:09
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Why doesn't Turkey just let all their Kurds who want to leave and fight ISIS go? Don't they want less Kurds in their country anyway?
They're trying to avoid ISIS having an actual excuse to cross the border and take some Turkish lands
My best guess
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RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Why doesn't Turkey just let all their Kurds who want to leave and fight ISIS go? Don't they want less Kurds in their country anyway?
They're trying to avoid ISIS having an actual excuse to cross the border and take some Turkish lands
My best guess
I don't think even ISIS wants to tangle with Turkey. They have quite a large army.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Why doesn't Turkey just let all their Kurds who want to leave and fight ISIS go? Don't they want less Kurds in their country anyway?
They're trying to avoid ISIS having an actual excuse to cross the border and take some Turkish lands
My best guess
I don't think even ISIS wants to tangle with Turkey. They have quite a large army.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Why doesn't Turkey just let all their Kurds who want to leave and fight ISIS go? Don't they want less Kurds in their country anyway?
They're trying to avoid ISIS having an actual excuse to cross the border and take some Turkish lands
My best guess
I don't think even ISIS wants to tangle with Turkey. They have quite a large army.
Second largest in nato I believe.
And also....NATO. I would think everyone in NATO would be obligated to respond if ISIS actually invaded Turkey.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Why doesn't Turkey just let all their Kurds who want to leave and fight ISIS go? Don't they want less Kurds in their country anyway?
They're trying to avoid ISIS having an actual excuse to cross the border and take some Turkish lands
My best guess
I don't think even ISIS wants to tangle with Turkey. They have quite a large army.
Second largest in nato I believe.
And also....NATO. I would think everyone in NATO would be obligated to respond if ISIS actually invaded Turkey.
That's something I believe that ISIS well try once they consolidate. What better way to show how weak the western nations (NATO) is by not responding to it. Obama then would actually face a serious issue to deploy ground troops to assist Turkey
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
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KamikazeCanuck wrote: Why doesn't Turkey just let all their Kurds who want to leave and fight ISIS go? Don't they want less Kurds in their country anyway?
They're trying to avoid ISIS having an actual excuse to cross the border and take some Turkish lands
My best guess
I don't think even ISIS wants to tangle with Turkey. They have quite a large army.
Second largest in nato I believe.
And also....NATO. I would think everyone in NATO would be obligated to respond if ISIS actually invaded Turkey.
That's something I believe that ISIS well try once they consolidate. What better way to show how weak the western nations (NATO) is by not responding to it. Obama then would actually face a serious issue to deploy ground troops to assist Turkey
I agree. I think the reason is because Turkey believes any Kurds they let go will become hardened vets who may then come back and start a rebellion in Turkey. They're probably right about that....
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Why doesn't Turkey just let all their Kurds who want to leave and fight ISIS go? Don't they want less Kurds in their country anyway?
They're trying to avoid ISIS having an actual excuse to cross the border and take some Turkish lands
My best guess
I don't think even ISIS wants to tangle with Turkey. They have quite a large army.
Second largest in nato I believe.
And also....NATO. I would think everyone in NATO would be obligated to respond if ISIS actually invaded Turkey.
That's something I believe that ISIS well try once they consolidate. What better way to show how weak the western nations (NATO) is by not responding to it. Obama then would actually face a serious issue to deploy ground troops to assist Turkey
I don't think ISIS will try to attack Turkey. I think the Turkish army is a bit out of their league, and they would probably face a NATO response of some kind. ISIS may be crazy, but they're not stupid.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/10/25 00:15:39
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Why doesn't Turkey just let all their Kurds who want to leave and fight ISIS go? Don't they want less Kurds in their country anyway?
They're trying to avoid ISIS having an actual excuse to cross the border and take some Turkish lands
My best guess
I don't think even ISIS wants to tangle with Turkey. They have quite a large army.
Second largest in nato I believe.
And also....NATO. I would think everyone in NATO would be obligated to respond if ISIS actually invaded Turkey.
That's something I believe that ISIS well try once they consolidate. What better way to show how weak the western nations (NATO) is by not responding to it. Obama then would actually face a serious issue to deploy ground troops to assist Turkey
In such a hypothetical scenario, could Obama not simply step-up both the naval & air assets, then deploy a limited number of "special operations advisors" as a means to get covert spec ops units involved?
It gives him effective 'boots on the ground', and by their very nature he doesn't have to go into any kind of details about exactly what these "advisors" are doing. (well, beyond 'advising' local forces of course...) Yet on the public face at home, he can safely just say that he's stepped up with added commitments & thus kept up the NATO pact, without going whole hog into another full blown invasion level of deployment.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: Why doesn't Turkey just let all their Kurds who want to leave and fight ISIS go? Don't they want less Kurds in their country anyway?
They're trying to avoid ISIS having an actual excuse to cross the border and take some Turkish lands
My best guess
I don't think even ISIS wants to tangle with Turkey. They have quite a large army.
Second largest in nato I believe.
And also....NATO. I would think everyone in NATO would be obligated to respond if ISIS actually invaded Turkey.
That's something I believe that ISIS well try once they consolidate. What better way to show how weak the western nations (NATO) is by not responding to it. Obama then would actually face a serious issue to deploy ground troops to assist Turkey
In such a hypothetical scenario, could Obama not simply step-up both the naval & air assets, then deploy a limited number of "special operations advisors" as a means to get covert spec ops units involved?
It gives him effective 'boots on the ground', and by their very nature he doesn't have to go into any kind of details about exactly what these "advisors" are doing. (well, beyond 'advising' local forces of course...) Yet on the public face at home, he can safely just say that he's stepped up with added commitments & thus kept up the NATO pact, without going whole hog into another full blown invasion level of deployment.
.Sure... anything can happen...
BUt, I suspect that Obama will kick this issue to the next administration as much as he can.
Ravenous D wrote: 40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
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You know in WW2, when you looked up and saw hundreds of bombers overhead and sound of their engines shook the earth?
Thats what ISIS needs to look up and see.
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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
I'm sick and tired of media outlets warping whats really happening out there to watered down, censored, cozy, family-friendly morsels aired during prime-time just so Joe Schmoe can watch the news with his wife and kids during dinner and then shrug his shoulders and be about his business as usual.
And this might just be a wild guess but the reason the US military (and President) are so lethargtic is that even they are only drip-fed false approximations of whats really happening in the ME. They still treat ISIS like some disorganized group of wannabe terrorists that can easily be dealt with, when in reality the territory they control is about the size of the UK, and huge parts of the civilian population actually supporting them.
No, ISIS is more like Nazi Germany, perhaps not on the technogicial or industrial level, but in the ideological and propaganda level with euphoric civilian support. They can only be really dealt with through full scale war. The world ignored Hitler from 1933 to 1939 and he could amass enough momentum to conquer most of europe...if the US continues to ignore the threat of ISIS, in fear of losing elections due to the american public being war weary (due to the media not really telling them what monster is in the Middle East right now and why it MUST be stopped), then ISIS will only become even harder to eradicate.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/16 19:57:39
Ravenous D wrote: 40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote: GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
Frak, man that scene with the beheadings… Gruesome, that’s all I can say about it.
I knew stuff like this happens and would continue to happen for some time, but to think it would be carried out on such a massive scale?
Truly IS is the biggest blight on the earth and has come to symbolize humanity at its absolute cruelest.
They’re no more than a stone toss away from being as bad as the Nazis.
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Grey Templar wrote: You know in WW2, when you looked up and saw hundreds of bombers overhead and sound of their engines shook the earth?
Thats what ISIS needs to look up and see.
Yah know, I kind of agree.
Since the US is the only power capable I would suggest that Obama goes in front of a camera and apologizes in advance for the feth ton of ordnance that civilians may get dropped on them. At the close of his speech the first cruise missiles should be hitting their targets, to be followed by waves of B-52s carrying iron bombs. Carpet bomb from the northern edge of Baghdad upwards to the borders of Iran and Turkey.
B1's and B2's to assist in the effort.
Strike jets should follow the first waves decimating anything that has been identified as ISIS that isn't destroyed by cruise or carpet bombing.
Chuck some more cruise missiles around for good measure.
Maybe have a breather to ask those supporting ISIS to reconsider their positions. Then resume again, again, and again.
Maybe we could chuck a few tornadoes and Typhoons into the air to help the effort.
Truly IS is the biggest blight on the earth and has come to symbolize humanity at its absolute cruelest.
They’re no more than a stone toss away from being as bad as the Nazis.
And yet, i was a terrible warmonger just trying to get Americans killed when i posted about just how far down the rabbit hole goes this time last year by many of the posters in this thread.
This has been dragged out now to the point there are only two ways it ends, US boots on the ground in Syria and Iraq, or ISIS boots on the ground in the US. Those are your choices now, when all is said and done.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
I think we could simply start by bombing Raqqa. Bomb it to dust and take it from there. Lets first see if that will be enough to destroy most of ISIS command infrastructure and have them leaderless.
Do I have an ounce of sympathy for the civilians in Raqqa? Absolutely not. Not when they had plenty of time to pack up and flee and didnt. Not when they had ample chance to unite and refuse IS rule and didnt. Not when they admire heads mounted on the central square's railings like some bizarre museum goers and take pictures with their mobile phones. Not when they as a mob beat Safawi soldiers to death, tie their hands on the back railings of their motorbikes and drag their corpses through the city streets amidst cheers from bystanders.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/11/16 23:05:13
Ravenous D wrote: 40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote: GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
No, ISIS is more like Nazi Germany, perhaps not on the technogicial or industrial level, but in the ideological and propaganda level with euphoric civilian support. They can only be really dealt with through full scale war. The world ignored Hitler from 1933 to 1939 and he could amass enough momentum to conquer most of europe...if the US continues to ignore the threat of ISIS, in fear of losing elections due to the american public being war weary (due to the media not really telling them what monster is in the Middle East right now and why it MUST be stopped), then ISIS will only become even harder to eradicate.
Sure the Nazis and ISIS share a massive propaganda machine, but neither have ever possessed "euphoric civilian support." The Nazi Party at the height of its popularity only ever pulled down a hot 44% of the vote, and needed to build a coalition to progress further. The majority of Sunnis in those places occupied by ISIS are people like you or I, who just want to go on and live their own lives and are fully aware of the radicalism of ISIS and don't particularly care for it. But they are stuck in a situation where they are repressed by Shi'a led regimes, or have to merely not interfere with extremists who share their own core beliefs. Not much of a choice is it?
Of course the United States and her military are war weary, we've spent the past 13 years overseas fighting two wars for questionable reasons and no demonstrable gains in areas of the world that don't share a language, culture and only the most basic values with the West. Now you want to send the fighting men and women back into a quagmire of our own creation against a fanatical enemy and with no clear goals?
No, I say. Absolutely not.
This is a Muslim issue, and it needs to be a multilateral effort lead by countries in the region to stabilize the situation, and sort out the issues within Islam itself. If they want some US air power or logistical support, fine, but I am vehemently against sending any more Americans to die in what will be a futile effort.
Mr. Burning wrote:
Since the US is the only power capable I would suggest that Obama goes in front of a camera and apologizes in advance for the feth ton of ordnance that civilians may get dropped on them. At the close of his speech the first cruise missiles should be hitting their targets, to be followed by waves of B-52s carrying iron bombs. Carpet bomb from the northern edge of Baghdad upwards to the borders of Iran and Turkey.
B1's and B2's to assist in the effort.
....
It won't happen, but it should. It should.
You're seriously advocating carpet bombing half a country? With no regard to the millions of civilians in the area?
BaronIveagh wrote:
And yet, i was a terrible warmonger just trying to get Americans killed when i posted about just how far down the rabbit hole goes this time last year by many of the posters in this thread.
This has been dragged out now to the point there are only two ways it ends, US boots on the ground in Syria and Iraq, or ISIS boots on the ground in the US. Those are your choices now, when all is said and done.
Way to appeal to the most basic 'us vs. them' sentiment. This isn't some titanic struggle between world superpowers that necessitates an overwhelming military response, this is a fringe group that has taken advantage of the chaotic political situation and the lack of true states in the Middle East. The most sensible way to deal with this is to let the region as a whole get sick of the situation, and then provide support for them when they decide to do something about it.
ISIS has no capability to project power in the United States, and I'm skeptical that they could put 'ISIS boots on the ground in the US.' This entire Salafi cauldron has finally boiled over, and it is up to the Muslim world as whole to decide what to do with it. Any intervention by the United States is a pointless waste of money, and more importantly, of American lives that will only be seen as an intrusion by the imperialist, Crusader West.
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