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 Grey Templar wrote:
I just think that Indian Casinos are a huge abuse of the system, by people who were not personally effected by the transgressions this is to pay for.

Not personally effected? Have you ever BEEN to a rez like Rosebud? Remember Somalia? Picture that, but with Native Americans. They're finally able to frag themselves up and have things like running water and electricity for most of the people now.

And, maybe you missed out, but your gak against natives didn't end 150 years ago. Perhaps if you had asked silly questions like 'Excuse me, mr Government, but what are you doing taking all those children away from their native parents, brain washing them, and murdering the ones that can't cope with white culture?" My grandparents still told me about that gak, since they survived it, and a lot of kids didn't. They either broke when they went out, or broke when they came back. If you ever wonder where the Nazis got some of their ideas, they stole them from the US.

150 years? Your government, in order to support the war on terror, took an Apache graveyard and gave it to strip miners in the most recent military appropriations bill. Land that had been protected under an agreement signed by Dwight Eisenhower. i want to know where you guys get the idea that this gak EVER STOPPED.

david choe wrote:
This funding of terrorist is in the same pot as Columbia drug lords and the cartels....it is an issue of some individules ( powerful) who are doing wrong things. It is not an act of the nation. This "pot" is different than Iran and North Korea.

The usa govt is doing just that, we freezes terrorist fun and arrest the terrorist like we do to the cartels. We don't go to war with Columbia or put sanction on them. Do that to SA and they win! More propaganda vs the evil empire of usa.

That's.. not entirely accurate. The US has gone to war in Colombia on many occasions, mostly via proxies, but sometimes with actual troops. FARC and the various cartels are bad, bad people, who, on occasion, happened to oppose Colombia's policy of 'de-indianisation' which is a polite way of saying 'slaughter the natives and take their land if it has anything valuable on it'. Don't make any mistake, they did it for entirely selfish reasons, ie armed natives who won't be taken alive make for very loyal guards for your cocaine factory.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Please, even Indian nations aren't without a little hypocrisy.

You claim your culture was trodden on and robbed blind, and then demand free land to build Casinos on which have nothing to do with your culture. If you wanted to continue a traditional way of life, sure I could consider asking for land reasonable. But wanting it for Casinos is just wrong.

We didn't take any 'free land'. All land occupied by Seneca Casinos was either ours the whole time, or paid for through the nose, and pay we did (and even, unlike the US, paid off all our loans from China), as that's the terms of our deal with the US government, we can buy back our land you stole. On the up side, the general collapse of the real estate market and the blind greed of Americans coming to our casinos has made that easier.

We put up casinos because our 'culture' also does not tax it's people. The casinos are owned by the Seneca government (and by extension, the people) and it's income is part of what pays for the roads, schools, college educations, other businesses, etc etc etc. The rest goes toward buying back our land you stole. Clearly you mistake us for barbarians who lived in the woods, when, in reality, many white American officers bitched when they burned our homes, as we had nicer houses then they did, with real glass windows!

We built towns and cities, which you burned, to house our civilians, many of whom you murdered. There was, after all, a reason you named us among your 'civilized' tribes'. I particularly liked the part of the story where the brave American soldiers took hammers to beat our women and children to death to save bullets.

So, don't complain that we played by your rules, turned your own greed against you, and effectively made you pay for what you stole. That's not hypocrisy, that's karmic justice.

The best part is we've destroyed more of you through your gambling and tobacco addictions than we ever could have through force of arms.

So come on down to Seneca Niagara, and while the night away in style! While you're here, gorge yourselves at our all you can eat buffets and restaurants, and then visit the smoking lounge and light up with our hand rolled native blend cigarettes and cigars! Embrace American consumer culture. Because otherwise, the terrorists win.

I really laugh when I hear about how the peaceful tribes were downtrodden by the White man, while the raids, massacres, and land grabs they visited on each other seem to be conveniently ignored. A lot of the tribes were pushed off their lands by other tribes, and lest we forget, there were those fun loving Aztecs, who went about the peaceful business of enslaving and sacrificing any tribe that fell to them.
The only thing that curbed the death toll in the tribal wars was the low level of technology. If European levels were available, the tribal wars here would have been every bit as devastating as those in Europe and Asia.

Are you missing all the people claiming a share of reservation pie while only being a tiny fraction native? They're not people who have been living on reservations in squalor, they're regular everyday people who figured out their genetics entitle them to stuff. Not to mention plopping their Casinos in locations where people don't want them to be, irrespective of local zoning or environmental considerations.

Those reservations where people were and are living in terrible conditions are horrible, thats why they should be abolished. No reservations. If you want to build a Casino, go ahead but do it as a private citizen of the US. There was a war, the natives lost. Get over it, I'm not accepting responsibility for the sins of other people.

And please, you can't compare what the Nazis did to what we did to the natives. Its not even close.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Please, even Indian nations aren't without a little hypocrisy.

You claim your culture was trodden on and robbed blind, and then demand free land to build Casinos on which have nothing to do with your culture. If you wanted to continue a traditional way of life, sure I could consider asking for land reasonable. But wanting it for Casinos is just wrong.

It really is not a claim, it is more of a historical fact that Native American culture was "trodden on and robbed blind." I am not sure what kind of history classes you were involved in as a child, but you might want to refresh yourself on all of what happened there.

Sorry if I gave the impression that they weren't stolen. I am not denying that they were wronged. They were. I just think that Indian Casinos are a huge abuse of the system, by people who were not personally effected by the transgressions this is to pay for. At this point, you can't claim you have been slighted by events which took place 150 years ago.

How is it that tribes building casinos on tribal land is an abuse of the system?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Are you missing all the people claiming a share of reservation pie while only being a tiny fraction native? They're not people who have been living on reservations in squalor, they're regular everyday people who figured out their genetics entitle them to stuff. Not to mention plopping their Casinos in locations where people don't want them to be, irrespective of local zoning or environmental considerations.

What you're talking about is something that barely ever happens, if ever. The fact that you refer to is as "claiming a share of reservation pie" only shows how uniformed you are on the subject.

And by "plopping their casinos in locations where people don't want them to be," do you mean people who don't own the land? The tribes should be able to do whatever they want with their own land. Other people's opinion on what they do with it really doesn't matter.

 Hordini wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Please, even Indian nations aren't without a little hypocrisy.

You claim your culture was trodden on and robbed blind, and then demand free land to build Casinos on which have nothing to do with your culture. If you wanted to continue a traditional way of life, sure I could consider asking for land reasonable. But wanting it for Casinos is just wrong.

It really is not a claim, it is more of a historical fact that Native American culture was "trodden on and robbed blind." I am not sure what kind of history classes you were involved in as a child, but you might want to refresh yourself on all of what happened there.

Sorry if I gave the impression that they weren't stolen. I am not denying that they were wronged. They were. I just think that Indian Casinos are a huge abuse of the system, by people who were not personally effected by the transgressions this is to pay for. At this point, you can't claim you have been slighted by events which took place 150 years ago.

How is it that tribes building casinos on tribal land is an abuse of the system?

Because they get to pick about any land they please, irrespective of zoning ordinances or environmental concerns. Not land they traditionally had either. They can come and build some god-awfully huge casino complex. And on top of it, most of the "indians" running the casinos aren't even close to being fullblood indian. You'd have to go back 3-4 generations before you find a native ancestor, they might as well claim they're from X european country if you go that far back. They'd certainly have more european genetics.

They can plop down a casino in the middle of some beautiful farmland/wetland despite the citizens being opposed to the construction. They might get some sympathy if they wanted to recreate their traditional lifestyle. If they really cared about their culture they wouldn't build casinos. I'm sure their ancestors would be ashamed.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Those reservations where people were and are living in terrible conditions are horrible, thats why they should be abolished. No reservations. If you want to build a Casino, go ahead but do it as a private citizen of the US. There was a war, the natives lost. Get over it, I'm not accepting responsibility for the sins of other people.

That is a pretty dismissive tone when talking about genocide.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
That is a pretty dismissive tone when talking about genocide.

We prefer to call it "aggressive negotiations."

Grey is right on only one thing; the Reservation system needs to end, but I disagree as to why. The system has enshrined poverty for Native peoples in the US. We just give them squats of bad land no one else wanted (but we take it anyway whenever something useful gets found there) and we just leave them there to rot. The aggressive and confrontational relationship between Tribal groups and the US government has created a system of 0 respect and trust. It needs to end, but it's not as simple as declaring "it's not my fault." It would take a massive social program to fix and amend the effective Apartheid Tribal groups live in in the US. Just marching in and saying "no more reservations" is not a solution.

Bitching about casinos is utterly childish. They build them because the casinos have become the only effective means for many tribal groups to give any sort of economy to their Reservations. If you don't like them, fix the problem instead of bitching about it. The US is a democratically elected government. We are all responsible for this gak continuing for 150 years.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Please, even Indian nations aren't without a little hypocrisy.

You claim your culture was trodden on and robbed blind, and then demand free land to build Casinos on which have nothing to do with your culture. If you wanted to continue a traditional way of life, sure I could consider asking for land reasonable. But wanting it for Casinos is just wrong.

It really is not a claim, it is more of a historical fact that Native American culture was "trodden on and robbed blind." I am not sure what kind of history classes you were involved in as a child, but you might want to refresh yourself on all of what happened there.

Sorry if I gave the impression that they weren't stolen. I am not denying that they were wronged. They were. I just think that Indian Casinos are a huge abuse of the system, by people who were not personally effected by the transgressions this is to pay for. At this point, you can't claim you have been slighted by events which took place 150 years ago.

How is it that tribes building casinos on tribal land is an abuse of the system?

Because they get to pick about any land they please, irrespective of zoning ordinances or environmental concerns. Not land they traditionally had either. They can come and build some god-awfully huge casino complex. And on top of it, most of the "indians" running the casinos aren't even close to being fullblood indian. You'd have to go back 3-4 generations before you find a native ancestor, they might as well claim they're from X european country if you go that far back. They'd certainly have more european genetics.

They can plop down a casino in the middle of some beautiful farmland/wetland despite the citizens being opposed to the construction. They might get some sympathy if they wanted to recreate their traditional lifestyle. If they really cared about their culture they wouldn't build casinos. I'm sure their ancestors would be ashamed.

No, they don't. We have lots and lots of tribe-owned casinos here in Washington state. The tribe does not get to just "pick about any land they want". If they want to build a casino on their reservation, they can do that, because the tribe, collectively, owns the rights to develop that land as they see fit. If they want to build a casino in downtown Seattle? Nope. Local and state ordinances dictate what can be built there.

As to plopping it down in some farmland/wetland? Nope, unless said farm/wetland is already zoned for commercial development. What the local citizens want really doesn't come into play, whether it's a casino or another fething Wal-Mart. Again, if said land is tribe-owned, then the tribe gets to decide what they build there. It's their land, by Federal law.

 Psienesis wrote:
If you live in a country, you pay taxes in some form or another. That is as true in the US as it is in Saudi Arabia. You might not pay a "foreigner tax" (though one might, never looked into that aspect of US Tax Code... and I thought the Eldar's Black Library was esoteric!), but there's plenty of other taxes to pay (depending on state of residence, city, etc. Some states and cities require Income Taxes on their residents, so you might end up being taxed 3 different times on the same income). Here were some people living in a country, enjoying the benefits of its military forces, public works, social programs and (especially at the time) high standard of education...

... and they wanted to do it for free? Please. That's never gone over well. That is, in a nutshell, one of the biggest (albeit erroneous) claims of American anti-immigration proponents.

Are you really equating Income Tax to a tax on Infidels?

The topic of Indian reservations is pretty interesting.

Might be worth its own thread.

 Da Boss wrote:
Nah, I don't think I will. I really think Saudi Arabia is a disgusting country, and a source of many of the problems in the Middle East. My post has nothing to do with attacking Obama, because I can't think of any US president who has really done much to make me think they want to do anything to Saudi Arabia except be best buds.

And why should the US do anything other than that? Short of invasion, and invasion would be ridiculously stupid, there is nothing to be done. They have massive amounts of oil, the Saud regime is stable, and its willing to cooperate with the West.

 Da Boss wrote:

The argument that the US goes to war to defend freedom and democracy is often thrown around, actions like the continued ass kissing of Saudi Arabia show it to be nothing but empty cynicism.

It is, and the saddest part is that many US citizens don't believe as much, and will bend over backwards to try and support the "Freemocracy!" angle.

Going back a bit to persecution of non-Christians by Christians, this showed up in the news today and happened right next door in Idaho:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/idaho-woman-arrested-for-trying-to-convert-jewish-acquaintance-to-jesus-by-beating-her/

Suspect seems a bit... nuts.

Are you really equating Income Tax to a tax on Infidels?

Yes, yes I am, because the general purpose of the tax is essentially the same. You don't get to live somewhere, enjoy the benefits of their police, educational systems, infrastructure, military, etc. without paying for it. The "infidel tax" is, by its definition, for that very reason. Non-Muslims were allowed to live in Muslim countries, but could not benefit from the stability of the system without paying into it.

 Psienesis wrote:
Going back a bit to persecution of non-Christians by Christians, this showed up in the news today and happened right next door in Idaho:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/idaho-woman-arrested-for-trying-to-convert-jewish-acquaintance-to-jesus-by-beating-her/

Suspect seems a bit... nuts.

Are you really equating Income Tax to a tax on Infidels?

Yes, yes I am, because the general purpose of the tax is essentially the same. You don't get to live somewhere, enjoy the benefits of their police, educational systems, infrastructure, military, etc. without paying for it. The "infidel tax" is, by its definition, for that very reason. Non-Muslims were allowed to live in Muslim countries, but could not benefit from the stability of the system without paying into it.

So charge them the same income taxes like everyone else. You know, like THE REST OF THE FETHING WORLD DOES. This is the very definition of discrimination. And you're in favour of it?

If this is fair and reasonable, then I demand a Jihadi tax on all Muslims in Britain to help fund the War on Terror. (Sarcam).

 Psienesis wrote:
Going back a bit to persecution of non-Christians by Christians, this showed up in the news today and happened right next door in Idaho:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/idaho-woman-arrested-for-trying-to-convert-jewish-acquaintance-to-jesus-by-beating-her/

Suspect seems a bit... nuts.

But isn't that completely irrelevant to the topic of this discussion?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Are you missing all the people claiming a share of reservation pie while only being a tiny fraction native? They're not people who have been living on reservations in squalor, they're regular everyday people who figured out their genetics entitle them to stuff. Not to mention plopping their Casinos in locations where people don't want them to be, irrespective of local zoning or environmental considerations.

Those reservations where people were and are living in terrible conditions are horrible, thats why they should be abolished. No reservations. If you want to build a Casino, go ahead but do it as a private citizen of the US. There was a war, the natives lost. Get over it, I'm not accepting responsibility for the sins of other people.

And please, you can't compare what the Nazis did to what we did to the natives. Its not even close.

You're right, americans were much more brutal than the nazi's. I know Texas still has laws outlining what's appropriate when shooting natives, probably others as well.

america did to the natives what ISIS is doing to Iraq. Basically you're saying the same thing, convert or die.

Let's not forget that most tribes with casino's also donate money to the state's they're in. I don't know why they choose to do so, but it's really nice of them to do so. If you're near a casino, you are probably benefiting from it as well, weather or not you go there.

Also you might read the "Indian Gaming Regulatory Act that was passed in 1988 " Your government gave them the OK to do so, Sorry you don't like it, but that's on you.

After everything they've had to endure, They can do what ever they want on their lands.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baxx wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Going back a bit to persecution of non-Christians by Christians, this showed up in the news today and happened right next door in Idaho:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/idaho-woman-arrested-for-trying-to-convert-jewish-acquaintance-to-jesus-by-beating-her/

Suspect seems a bit... nuts.

But isn't that completely irrelevant to the topic of this discussion?

the crusader challenge was brought up, in this case I'm glad the dude isn't out another $100.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Found the numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_Native_American_gaming

It is required by law for a tribe to agree to a state compact if they request one, but the IGRA says nothing about local governments. However, many tribes do negotiate with local governments. They place a strain on traffic and emergency services, and it is not uncommon for a tribe to compensate for that. Native Americans pay $50 million annually to local governments across the nation. In addition, non-Natives hold 75% of the 300,000 jobs that belong to Native American gaming.

There are many outdated laws on the books that haven't been enforced in many years. A good example is the dueling law in Idaho that is just now in the process of being repealed:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/14/idaho-moves-to-repeal-dated-duel-law/

Another good example that comes to my mind is the extermination order against the Mormons that lingered on the books until 1976:

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Extermination_Order


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wonder what'll happen if this base gets over run and Marines killed or captured.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/02/15/isis-closing-in-terror-group-seizes-iraqi-town-5-miles-from-marine-base/

 Grey Templar wrote:
Are you missing all the people claiming a share of reservation pie while only being a tiny fraction native? They're not people who have been living on reservations in squalor, they're regular everyday people who figured out their genetics entitle them to stuff. Not to mention plopping their Casinos in locations where people don't want them to be, irrespective of local zoning or environmental considerations.

Those reservations where people were and are living in terrible conditions are horrible, thats why they should be abolished. No reservations. If you want to build a Casino, go ahead but do it as a private citizen of the US. There was a war, the natives lost. Get over it, I'm not accepting responsibility for the sins of other people.

And please, you can't compare what the Nazis did to what we did to the natives. Its not even close.

Well, it's hard to pick out just one thing your wrong about. Let's start with the basics:

I don't know how others do it, but the SNI is so strict about who gets a 'piece of the Casino pie' that you're disqualified if your mother was non-native. no matter what 'percent' (and boy do I have a lot of native jokes about percentages, because it is the number one stupid question people ask when visiting) you are. We have three classes of citizenship (guess what, white = bottom of the pile) 1st is registered Seneca. These guys get the cut of the pie, and you have to be able to prove your Seneca-ness back to 1860 at least, via 'the Grandmother Chase'. Then there's Second Class, who have all the legal rights of 1st class but don't get any of the casino money. These guys are your Seneca who don't have proof, your mixed bloods and other natives. Then you have Third class, which is pretty much everyone else. You have have some rights before the native courts, and have to pay the lease, but do not have to pay New York state property tax..

Not even close is right! Let's look at the numbers: According to Lilian Friedberg's article "Dare to Compare: Americanizing the Holocaust": "The rate of attrition of Jewish populations in Europe is commonly calculated at between 60 and 65 percent. Put in terms of survival rates, this means that two-thirds of the global Jewish population and about one third of the European Jewish population survived the Nazi Holocaust, whereas a mere remnant population of 1 to 2 percent [of Native Americans] survived the American Holocaust," This is from a Jewish author, writing about genocide.

And how about we build them as private citizens of the our own countries, thank you very much. We have our own governments, courts, banks, police, public services, schools, passports, national debt, healthcare system, fish and game, boarder patrol and revenue men to monitor imports and exports. You know what the US gives us? A post office and rent money for some cities and high ways they lease. And we could, if we wanted to, operate our own post office.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Because they get to pick about any land they please, irrespective of zoning ordinances or environmental concerns. Not land they traditionally had either.

I dunno what goes on out west, but our agreement with the US only allows us to repurchase land we previously owned, unless such land is donated by the owners, with the approval of the BIA

 Grey Templar wrote:
They can plop down a casino in the middle of some beautiful farmland/wetland despite the citizens being opposed to the construction. They might get some sympathy if they wanted to recreate their traditional lifestyle. If they really cared about their culture they wouldn't build casinos. I'm sure their ancestors would be ashamed.

Our ancestors would be more ashamed if we let everyone live in squalor and poverty. You have a very strange idea of what constitutes our 'traditional lifestyle'.

Some of Buffalo's citizens were, in fact, opposed to us building our casino there. Or any other business there. We own a large chunk of what is now down town Buffalo (formerly the site of the Buffalo Creek Reservation, until were were told to "gtfo we want a city here". Since the US government allowed us to buy back our property, we've purchased quite a lot of down town Buffalo, creating several thousand jobs in our casino and non-casino businesses. Which the city is opposed to, as they lose the tax revenue. So, miraculously, a group sprang up to protest it

Relapse wrote:

I really laugh when I hear about how the peaceful tribes were downtrodden by the White man, while the raids, massacres, and land grabs they visited on each other seem to be conveniently ignored. A lot of the tribes were pushed off their lands by other tribes, and lest we forget, there were those fun loving Aztecs, who went about the peaceful business of enslaving and sacrificing any tribe that fell to them.
The only thing that curbed the death toll in the tribal wars was the low level of technology. If European levels were available, the tribal wars here would have been every bit as devastating as those in Europe and Asia.

Um, pal, we had 'European levels of technology' because Europeans sold them to us. And, being fairly smart, we sent people to learn those nifty things like 'how do we make guns' 'how do we make glass', etc..

As far as the raids, etc, we took prisoners, and treated them better than you did most of the time (meaning we took prisoners at all). There's a reason that many of our 'captives', particularly women, didn't want to go back.

I might further point out that the 'Aztecs, though their culture is long since gone, do have a country, it's called Mexico. Based on the news it's still pretty savage down there.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Hordini wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Please, even Indian nations aren't without a little hypocrisy.

You claim your culture was trodden on and robbed blind, and then demand free land to build Casinos on which have nothing to do with your culture. If you wanted to continue a traditional way of life, sure I could consider asking for land reasonable. But wanting it for Casinos is just wrong.

It really is not a claim, it is more of a historical fact that Native American culture was "trodden on and robbed blind." I am not sure what kind of history classes you were involved in as a child, but you might want to refresh yourself on all of what happened there.

Sorry if I gave the impression that they weren't stolen. I am not denying that they were wronged. They were. I just think that Indian Casinos are a huge abuse of the system, by people who were not personally effected by the transgressions this is to pay for. At this point, you can't claim you have been slighted by events which took place 150 years ago.

How is it that tribes building casinos on tribal land is an abuse of the system?

Because they get to pick about any land they please, irrespective of zoning ordinances or environmental concerns. Not land they traditionally had either. They can come and build some god-awfully huge casino complex. And on top of it, most of the "indians" running the casinos aren't even close to being fullblood indian. You'd have to go back 3-4 generations before you find a native ancestor, they might as well claim they're from X european country if you go that far back. They'd certainly have more european genetics.

They can plop down a casino in the middle of some beautiful farmland/wetland despite the citizens being opposed to the construction. They might get some sympathy if they wanted to recreate their traditional lifestyle. If they really cared about their culture they wouldn't build casinos. I'm sure their ancestors would be ashamed.

No, they don't. We have lots and lots of tribe-owned casinos here in Washington state. The tribe does not get to just "pick about any land they want". If they want to build a casino on their reservation, they can do that, because the tribe, collectively, owns the rights to develop that land as they see fit. If they want to build a casino in downtown Seattle? Nope. Local and state ordinances dictate what can be built there.

As to plopping it down in some farmland/wetland? Nope, unless said farm/wetland is already zoned for commercial development. What the local citizens want really doesn't come into play, whether it's a casino or another fething Wal-Mart. Again, if said land is tribe-owned, then the tribe gets to decide what they build there. It's their land, by Federal law.

Down here in Cali a tribe did just that. They plopped a Casino down right in the middle of some farmland on the outskirts of a city, land which by city ordinance could not be developed. The land also happened to be protected wetland on top of it all.

They should not be able to do whatever they want with the land, they should have to follow all the rules everyone else does.

Relapse wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wonder what'll happen if this base gets over run and Marines killed or captured.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/02/15/isis-closing-in-terror-group-seizes-iraqi-town-5-miles-from-marine-base/

I can guess at that one.

Right now the wars are losing public support, more and more people just want them to end. If that base get's over run, it will be the new battle cry for another 20 years of war.

The war efforts will get ramped up again with more loses on each side and greater numbers of civilian lives lost.

This would be a good day to call for peace talks, if the base falls america would gladly go bankrupt with a majority of public support, trying to fight ISIS and what ever group replaces it.

If they hold out, I'm not sure, it would definitely hurt ISIS, but I'm not sure if that would slow them down enough for them to start to collapse.

 Grey Templar wrote:

They should not be able to do whatever they want with the land, they should have to follow all the rules everyone else does.

They probably are following the rules, for their country. Again, I don't know the terms of who ever this was deal with the US, I know ours pretty much recognizes us as an entirely separate nation state. And, under our laws, something like demolishing a wetland would have some pretty high hurdles to leap before it would be approved.

BaronIveagh 614584 7596307 305d00e9cc8b4ad7dbf7d76130078cf3.j wrote:

Relapse wrote:

I really laugh when I hear about how the peaceful tribes were downtrodden by the White man, while the raids, massacres, and land grabs they visited on each other seem to be conveniently ignored. A lot of the tribes were pushed off their lands by other tribes, and lest we forget, there were those fun loving Aztecs, who went about the peaceful business of enslaving and sacrificing any tribe that fell to them.
The only thing that curbed the death toll in the tribal wars was the low level of technology. If European levels were available, the tribal wars here would have been every bit as devastating as those in Europe and Asia.

Um, pal, we had 'European levels of technology' because Europeans sold them to us. And, being fairly smart, we sent people to learn those nifty things like 'how do we make guns' 'how do we make glass', etc..

As far as the raids, etc, we took prisoners, and treated them better than you did most of the time (meaning we took prisoners at all). There's a reason that many of our 'captives', particularly women, didn't want to go back.

I might further point out that the 'Aztecs, though their culture is long since gone, do have a country, it's called Mexico. Based on the news it's still pretty savage down there.

Um, pal, you seem to overlook the wars of extermination the tribes had with each other and the fact that there were several tribes only too happy to work with the White man so that the technological edge the whites had could be employed in their wars with other tribes. Don't try playing the victim card with me. I like the way you proved my point with the Aztecs.

I think the discussion on this subject could be best done in another thread, BTW.

More stuff from the snackbar front. No idea why they upload this to youtube given it'll be removed within hours. Still worth a look to get an idea how fighting in the pile of rubble that is Syria/Iraq looks today, though very disturbing stuff as usual:

[MOD EDIT - Totally NOT appropriate for Dakka Dakka. - Alpharius]

Relapse wrote:

Um, pal, you seem to overlook the wars of extermination the tribes had with each other and the fact that there were several tribes only too happy to work with the White man so that the technological edge the whites had could be employed in their wars with other tribes. Don't try playing the victim card with me.

The only 'war of extermination' I can think of off the top of my head was between the Seneca (us) and the Erie, because they allied with the Huron. And, you know what? Walk around a Seneca reservation. You see the guys over six foot? Those are the descendants of the Eries. After we beat them, they largely joined us.

You'll have to be more specific.

Baxx wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Going back a bit to persecution of non-Christians by Christians, this showed up in the news today and happened right next door in Idaho:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/idaho-woman-arrested-for-trying-to-convert-jewish-acquaintance-to-jesus-by-beating-her/

Suspect seems a bit... nuts.

But isn't that completely irrelevant to the topic of this discussion?

No, because back several pages, the topic was the discussion of the persecution of Christians by non-Christians, and the persecution of non-Christians by Christians. Hence my "going back a bit" that opened the post.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/02/15/video-purports-to-show-isis-militants-beheading-christian-hostages/

Yeah, word is they grabbed some copts out of Egypt and did a mass beheading.

As twisted as it sounds, I can only hope ISIS (and those who support them) keep pulling these stunts. Jordan has a fire lit in it ever since ISIS killed that pilot. Saudi Arabia is going to get sucked in soon as well I think. They can only go on sidelining this problem for so long. Egypt will be the hardest because ISIS has supporters in government positions, but if it gets bad enough Egypt's military might take matters into their own hands. Once the rest of the region gets off its collective butts I don't imagine ISIS will last for long.

 LordofHats wrote:
As twisted as it sounds, I can only hope ISIS (and those who support them) keep pulling these stunts. Jordan has a fire lit in it ever since ISIS killed that pilot. Saudi Arabia is going to get sucked in soon as well I think. They can only go on sidelining this problem for so long. Egypt will be the hardest because ISIS has supporters in government positions, but if it gets bad enough Egypt's military might take matters into their own hands. Once the rest of the region gets off its collective butts I don't imagine ISIS will last for long.

That's a big supposition.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Um, pal, you seem to overlook the wars of extermination the tribes had with each other and the fact that there were several tribes only too happy to work with the White man so that the technological edge the whites had could be employed in their wars with other tribes. Don't try playing the victim card with me.

The only 'war of extermination' I can think of off the top of my head was between the Seneca (us) and the Erie, because they allied with the Huron. And, you know what? Walk around a Seneca reservation. You see the guys over six foot? Those are the descendants of the Eries. After we beat them, they largely joined us.

You'll have to be more specific.

I think you should start up a new thread for this. I have several references I would be more than happy to provide, but not at the cost of derailing this thread.

 LordofHats wrote:
As twisted as it sounds, I can only hope ISIS (and those who support them) keep pulling these stunts. Jordan has a fire lit in it ever since ISIS killed that pilot. Saudi Arabia is going to get sucked in soon as well I think. They can only go on sidelining this problem for so long. Egypt will be the hardest because ISIS has supporters in government positions, but if it gets bad enough Egypt's military might take matters into their own hands. Once the rest of the region gets off its collective butts I don't imagine ISIS will last for long.

God, could you imagine if the IDF went in alongside it's usual enemies!? Could ISIS really be the one thing to bring peace to the middle east?