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A lot of people dislike the T1 shoot first advantage of the game, or adapt to try and deny T1 shooting and DS in their own alpha strike. Obviously we can all buy a new army/models and play a game other than the one we'd prefer, but what other options are there aside from quitting?

What's a simple house rule you would to propose to blunt that? Hopefully not a suggestion that breaks it in another fashion (Assault from DS T1!)...

How about a global, non-removable invuln++ save across the board?

Make Everything 4+++ On T1, 5+++ T2, 6+++ on T3. Roll off each player turn to see if it drops, So player 1's shooting victims may get a 4+++, and on a 3-, P2 gets to shoot P1 at a 5+++. Should this apply to shooting only, or CC too?

Too powerful? How about a 5+++ to start?

The added T1 resiliency might also buff Assault enough to be viable, but not so much that the pendulum swings completely in the other direction. It also devalues the death stars a bit, as they are still paying for the invuln and weakens armor saves over all. It also devalues the special weapons, which makes the improtance of a lasgun or bolter that much better, relatively speaking.

What do you think? Does that do more good than harm? You Make Da Call!

Don't like it, some units pay a large premium to have access to invulnerable saves so throwing them out willy-nilly is a big no-no. I would suggest changing the rule ''First Blood'' into that to get it you must completely destroy a unit first turn or the objective is lost. You might think this encourages alpha striking, but infact it punishes it because people would go for first blood anyway, and usually suicide squads (such as Dominions) to achieve this, but if it also allied to the 2nd player for his first turn then people would be far less inclined to throw their melta vets out of their chimera as fast.

Alternatively, just house rule night fighting to always be in effect first turn, limiting all shooting to 36'' inches, both should work out well without giving indirect nerfs to anything low AP or with an invulnerable save.

Play with more terrain on the field. It makes 40k infinitely better.

That or play automatic Night Fighting.

Night fighting helps.

Another option would be to let both players get first blood (might have to re-name it) So if you kill a unit on your first turn, you get a VP. A lot of times if you are going for first blood, you leave yourself wide open for a counter attack.

Having it as an option promotes more aggressive play styles (a good thing IMHO) but people wouldn’t be able to just suicide a unit for a free VP.

 Nevelon wrote:
Night fighting helps.

Another option would be to let both players get first blood (might have to re-name it) So if you kill a unit on your first turn, you get a VP. A lot of times if you are going for first blood, you leave yourself wide open for a counter attack.

Having it as an option promotes more aggressive play styles (a good thing IMHO) but people wouldn’t be able to just suicide a unit for a free VP.

Honestly, just get rid of first blood. It puts the second player at a disadvantage all game, in Eternal War it instantly makes Slay the Warlord and Linebreaker irrelevant since you need all three secondaries to equal one primary.

Beyond that I don't see Turn 1 shooting as too game breaking since it's relatively easy to counter deploy out of range of most of the enemy.

I agree just get rid of first blood,

Or rewording First blood to be "If you kill a unit in your first game turn, you get..." so both sides can get it, which would encourage aggression as well.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Play with more terrain on the field. It makes 40k infinitely better.

That or play automatic Night Fighting.

I'm a big fan of this... but then again, I play Tau- the only race in 40k to have mastered the technology that lets the US Army fight at night.

Seriously- we can put Night-fighting on just about anything and our suits have it already figured into the cost.

As advanced as the Eldar and Necrons are supposed to be, you'd think they would have figured out night vision goggles, but apparently not...

 EmpNortonII wrote:

As advanced as the Eldar and Necrons are supposed to be, you'd think they would have figured out night vision goggles, but apparently not...

The Eldar haven't even invented the lightbulb, given the absence of searchlights on our... flying grav tanks. Imagine if Edison worked on that instead of the carbon filament.

I personally don't see what the problem with t1 DS / infilitrate / scout assaulting would be to counter-act shooting alpha strikes.

This isn't third edition anymore (much to my dismay), they can't just sweeping-advance into combat after combat and never be vulnerable to shooting.

 morganfreeman wrote:
I personally don't see what the problem with t1 DS / infilitrate / scout assaulting would be to counter-act shooting alpha strikes.

This isn't third edition anymore (much to my dismay), they can't just sweeping-advance into combat after combat and never be vulnerable to shooting.

T1 infiltrated/scouted assault would break the game in the other direction. SM Bikes are bad enough for many armies to handle, much less Raven scouting troop bikes and scout meltabomb bikers. 15 units (split the troop bike squads) assaulting T1 with krak grenades and meltabombs will annihilate almost any vehicle build, be immune to shooting against scary stuff by being safe in assault T1, etc. If the foe hugs his back line, you can outflank instead - there's no where to hide. It basically removes most of the deployment strategy and options from most builds. DT's also get the trait so you don't even need to go first in T1, Scout/Infiltrate your DT landraider and have them move 6, deploy 6 and charge 2d6+ without ever getting shot before overwatch.

The infiltration warlord trait would be rerolled for successfully 30% of the time, 50+% on orks with thinking kap, dropping MANZ or 30 man ork blobs into assault on T1 or via outflank on T2, so it breaks every army, including SM who prefer termies in land raiders for some formerly non-competitive reason.

 morganfreeman wrote:
I personally don't see what the problem with t1 DS / infilitrate / scout assaulting would be to counter-act shooting alpha strikes.

This isn't third edition anymore (much to my dismay), they can't just sweeping-advance into combat after combat and never be vulnerable to shooting.

First turn assault would completely break the game.

But, turn 1 infiltration could be a potential solution. Players deploy infiltrators, as per the normal rules in their movement phase. So the second player doesn't reveal his infiltrators until his turn. Could help protect some of player 2's forces and give him a chance to punish his opponent by infiltrating into the backfield of an assault army after it moves.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Play with more terrain on the field. It makes 40k infinitely better.

That or play automatic Night Fighting.

I'm a big fan of this... but then again, I play Tau- the only race in 40k to have mastered the technology that lets the US Army fight at night.

Seriously- we can put Night-fighting on just about anything and our suits have it already figured into the cost.

As advanced as the Eldar and Necrons are supposed to be, you'd think they would have figured out night vision goggles, but apparently not...

What????!!!!! What about Dark Eldar? Everyhing has it.....Natively. No purchasing it.

 megatrons2nd wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Play with more terrain on the field. It makes 40k infinitely better.

That or play automatic Night Fighting.

I'm a big fan of this... but then again, I play Tau- the only race in 40k to have mastered the technology that lets the US Army fight at night.

Seriously- we can put Night-fighting on just about anything and our suits have it already figured into the cost.

As advanced as the Eldar and Necrons are supposed to be, you'd think they would have figured out night vision goggles, but apparently not...

What????!!!!! What about Dark Eldar? Everyhing has it.....Natively. No purchasing it.

You're right. My apologies.

In my defense, though, I don't know anyone locally that plays Dark Eldar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gotta say, poking back through that Codex, you guys get the coolest special characters.

Alternating unit activation system.

 Blacksails wrote:
Alternating unit activation system.

I play IG, I regularly field over a dozen units in smaller games, over twenty in larger games, alternating unit activation would turn the game into a miserable, agonizingly slow experience.

I wouldn't mind if they came out with an alternate rule set that used unit by unit turns, although I prefer full turns.

On topic: any unit that deep strikes, infiltrates, scouts, or whatever else snap shots the turn they arrive.
If my BA can land right next to you and not assault, the farsight bomb can suck it up and live with their one turn of twin linked ignore cover split firing snap fire.

Alternating turns are bad in this situation. Do: I move you move, I shoot you shoot, I remove casualties you remove casualties.....

Yes I think casualty removal should be at the end of the shooting phase, leave a marker for how many wounds the unit took.

niv-mizzet wrote:

On topic: any unit that deep strikes, infiltrates, scouts, or whatever else snap shots the turn they arrive.
If my BA can land right next to you and not assault, the farsight bomb can suck it up and live with their one turn of twin linked ignore cover split firing snap fire.

That sounds fair and pretty awesome

I hear terrain is a good balance against alpha strikes.

Cambonimachine wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

On topic: any unit that deep strikes, infiltrates, scouts, or whatever else snap shots the turn they arrive.
If my BA can land right next to you and not assault, the farsight bomb can suck it up and live with their one turn of twin linked ignore cover split firing snap fire.

That sounds fair and pretty awesome

Deep strike, yes. Not sure about the others. Infiltration and ambush is usually all about catching the enemy totally off guard. But watch any video of someone landing by parachute or fast rope, you've got to detach your parachute without it flying into your squad mates and you've gotta find your gun which isn't in your hands and you gotta regroup with your buddies. Sounds like snap firing on deep strike makes a lot of sense.

Between all the scatter reductions, re-rolls, and no rolls, Space Marines and Tau have gotten very good at no risk deep striking.

Youre right TheSilo, wasnt paying attention. Infiltrate and scout shouldnt snapfire, but deep striking definitely should the turn they show up.

 TheSilo wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Alternating unit activation system.

I play IG, I regularly field over a dozen units in smaller games, over twenty in larger games, alternating unit activation would turn the game into a miserable, agonizingly slow experience.

Sure, at 2000pts it slows down, but you're thinking in total game time, not in active time engaging in the game. An alternating system may make the game longer, but you spend much less time sitting around watching your opponent move and roll dice, and spend much more time actively engaged in decision making and countering your opponent.

While you're correct in that the game would take longer, it wouldn't feel like it as you spend the whole game going back and forth with your opponent.

I'd hardly call it miserable or agonizingly slow. If anything, the current system of waiting for your opponent to move everything and remove your models wholesale is what is miserable and agonizingly slow.

Besides, as for the point of the thread, the alternating system is the most elegant solution and balanced solution to reducing and negating alpha strikes. The alternative is simultaneous turns, but that requires more bookkeeping and tracking for casualty removal.

Things like night fighting and extra saves are just poor bandaids to the problem.

Having units snap-fire upon deep-striking pretty much defeats the entire point of deep-striking.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Having units snap-fire upon deep-striking pretty much defeats the entire point of deep-striking.

It also makes static gunlines that much stronger.