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 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
There is no concrete evidence that Zoe and Quinn tricked people out of money.

Thank you, that was everything I was asking for!

Thats not necessarily true.

From what I recall reading in this thread and the previous threads...

Zoe Quinn claimed that she had/was going to, donate(d) some of the proceeds of Depression Quest or w.e. she makes her money off (SIlverstring?) to a specific charity. It was then confirmed by the Charity itself that they had received no such donation from her.

Zoe Quinn apparently then retconned the name of the charity to a different one, and produced a screenshot of what she claimed was her email account with emails indicating that (by way of the subject titles) payments had been made to this new charity. As I recall the screenshot did not indicate how much these donations were - it could have been mere pennies, or it could have been hundreds of dollars.


Thats just one example off the top of my head.


To come into the tail end of a month long discussion spread across dozens of pages in 4 or more threads and cry "Wheres the evidence? I don't see it here!" is a little disingenuous.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
There is no concrete evidence that Zoe and Quinn tricked people out of money.

Thank you, that was everything I was asking for!

Thats not necessarily true.

From what I recall reading in this thread and the previous threads...

Zoe Quinn claimed that she had/was going to, donate(d) some of the proceeds of Depression Quest or w.e. she makes her money off (SIlverstring?) to a specific charity. It was then confirmed by the Charity itself that they had received no such donation from her.

Zoe Quinn apparently then retconned the name of the charity to a different one, and produced a screenshot of what she claimed was her email account with emails indicating that (by way of the subject titles) payments had been made to this new charity. As I recall the screenshot did not indicate how much these donations were - it could have been mere pennies, or it could have been hundreds of dollars.

Apparently it was a 'mistake'.... It was released in what month?
February 14, 2013 And when was it released on steam? The first week of august?

Hmmm

So she has had a year of donations and just now realized that she had forgot to contact the charity?

I think I have posted all the sources at the beginning of the thread... Oh yeah. I DID.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/614723.page#7195026

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
There is no concrete evidence that Zoe and Quinn tricked people out of money.

Thank you, that was everything I was asking for!

Thats not necessarily true.

From what I recall reading in this thread and the previous threads...

Zoe Quinn claimed that she had/was going to, donate(d) some of the proceeds of Depression Quest or w.e. she makes her money off (SIlverstring?) to a specific charity. It was then confirmed by the Charity itself that they had received no such donation from her.

Zoe Quinn apparently then retconned the name of the charity to a different one, and produced a screenshot of what she claimed was her email account with emails indicating that (by way of the subject titles) payments had been made to this new charity. As I recall the screenshot did not indicate how much these donations were - it could have been mere pennies, or it could have been hundreds of dollars.


Thats just one example off the top of my head.


To come into the tail end of a month long discussion spread across dozens of pages in 4 or more threads and cry "Wheres the evidence? I don't see it here!" is a little disingenuous.

The charity depression quest claims to give money too is iFred, who know nothing about it and never been in contact with Quinn and there is emails with the lead about it. She has a inbox pic (with no name proving its hers) showing donations to some helpline in New York, who also claim they know nothing about Quinn. I donated my self so the page seems legit but her name isn't connected to it, and it seems weird not to mention anything and no one claiming they are connected at all.

and I know right? The 3 of them suddenly appearing at once demanding the same thing, hows the PM party?

In the meanwhile Shadow Captain, would you like to send some emails and letters to the advertisers rather then pointlessly arguing with these folks that keep derailing it back to Zoe and Anita?

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Your opinion is factually incorrect, Alf. I know this.

An example I had recently involved Flames of War, it's really hated by a by some who will badmouth it continuously to anyone asking about it. Nothing constructive or pointing out issues, just saying "It's wrong and bad and you're a bad person if you consider it".

My response was to just hand them the rules and some scenarios, explain a bit how it works and leave it at that. Sigh.

The funny thing about that, is that in my experience many of the most vocal critics of Flames of War have never actually played the game. It's like people criticizing a film they've never seen or a video game they've never played. This certainly happens in the video game world as well, although probably more with politicians than actual gamers.

Yeah you already know my stance, I can't spam them

But I have contacted a few developers on the matter, and a lot of us agree, we see alot of the games media quite often even in person, but we assumed there was corruption going on, because we are human beings.

People who say "I don't enjoy X because Y" is fine. People who say "X is gak you suk" should be ignored. I have a very good mate that we agree on virtually nothing about... politics, economics, game systems, anime, programming languages, methodologies... but we're great mates because we respect each others opinions and know they're based on valid reasons or based on subjective preferences (which is in itself valid when known to be such).

 Ashiraya wrote:
This I do not deny. I think it's outrageous to use feminism and anti-misogyny as a shield to hide corruption, and that it is harmful to those fighting true sexism.

But I see people's protests crossing over into 'feminism is bad and sjw' which is just as bad, in the other direction.

We agree on this, but those crossing that line are a small minority with no coordination or power - notably no one here on dakka for example. Games journalists do have power and coordination and using misogyny and other topics actively harms those causes far more than a few trolls doing their usual thing. Of those trolls, most aren't even misogynists, they're just riling people up using whatever means they can. They do this to anyone and everyone, if you follow any large youtuber they'll say how often they get these - it's not labeled as misandry when a male gets them.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
How about this? Its only 5 minutes, please try.

I don't understand the point of this video. Guy goes on about unlawful or harmful acts and admissions of guilt? About what? Using media to push an agenda? While citing Breitbart? I'm not sure how I can be expected to take this seriously.

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
How about this? Its only 5 minutes, please try.




Doesn't count? Sure, okay. Keep being offended. Im contacting Kraft as we speak.

I am going to sum it up for people too lazy to check it out. Apparently there were some VGJ that had a private newsletter/newgroup. And the guy on the video is very angry about that. And yes, the relation between this and whether or not Anita tried to steal/extort/scam money out of people is nilsch, zero, nada, none, que dalle. Just as was to be expected. Who is surprised? I know I am not.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am going to sum it up for people too lazy to check it out.

Lazy or wise?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Mechanical Crow wrote:
How about this? Its only 5 minutes, please try.




Doesn't count? Sure, okay. Keep being offended. Im contacting Kraft as we speak.

I am going to sum it up for people too lazy to check it out. Apparently there were some VGJ that had a private newsletter/newgroup. And the guy on the video is very angry about that. And yes, the relation between this and whether or not Anita tried to steal/extort/scam money out of people is nilsch, zero, nada, none, que dalle. Just as was to be expected. Who is surprised? I know I am not.

Though it is usual for a group of people to talk to each other through group chats. If someone was able to leak evidence that would say they had planned a multidude of the articles to come out at the same time. Then that would basically put your words in your mouth.

I think it is funny how you've ignore shadow and the sources I have posted.

I think the whole issue is still why would you address you audience the way the did.

Do you really think they should get scott free when they claim to represent video gamers?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Though it is usual for a group of people to talk to each other through group chats. If someone was able to leak evidence that would say they had planned a multidude of the articles to come out at the same time. Then that would basically put your words in your mouth.

Ashiraya asked for proofs, or even hints, that Anita tried to scam/extort money from people. This video does not provide any.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Though it is usual for a group of people to talk to each other through group chats. If someone was able to leak evidence that would say they had planned a multidude of the articles to come out at the same time. Then that would basically put your words in your mouth.

Ashiraya asked for proofs, or even hints, that Anita tried to scam/extort money from people. This video does not provide any.

K

This is related to gamersgate

A few days ago I tweeted a response to somebody posting on the Gamer Gate hashtag, in which I insinuated that they were a straight white male person masquerading as a minority woman. They posted a picture which seemed to prove that they were not, and apparently Reddit got wind of it, because for the next day or two I was inundated by hundreds of the meanest, dumbest, most awful things that have ever been said to me on Twitter.
It quickly got to the point where locking my account was the only thing that seemed to slow the avalanche down, if not stop it completely (as it turns out people who you don’t follow still show up in your @-mentions even if your account is locked, which really should, at the very least, be a switch you can toggle).
I’m opening my account back up, though, because after the initial shock of this deluge of crap, and my knee-jerk reaction to just hide under a blanket until it all passes, I’ve realized I don’t want to give these donkey-caves the satisfaction. I don’t want them to be the reason I’m not using Twitter the way I want to.
And also, because I’m constantly humbled by people like Zoe Quinn, and Jenn Frank, and Leigh Alexander, and Anita Sarkeesian. And if they can continue to live their online lives in the face of the unimaginable, unending litany of hate that they receive, then I can tweet from a public account that gets a couple of hundred idiotic @-replies over a weekend.
I do want to address something serious here, though, and that’s my initial reaction to the woman that started this whole thing. Jumping to the conclusion that she was a straight white guy based on the way she tweeted showed poor judgement, and it was a gakky thing to do. I’d like to apologize to that person for doing so.
After all, if I’ve learned anything from this whole situation, it’s that not only straight white guys have rotten, worthless opinions about things.
Anyway, I’m back.

*please note he was harassing a 16 year old girl on twitter and calling her a manchild and a moron. Because she supports gamersgate... Yeah its gotten dicey on twitter.

 Manchu wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am going to sum it up for people too lazy to check it out.

Lazy or wise?

I'll take "wise" for $500, Alex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seriously though, this has been interesting to me from the point of view of "holy gak the internet is crazy".

This has been EXCEEDINGLY uncomfortable to me from the apparently genuine manifestations of emotion on both sides.

I can't figure out if I need to keep watching the train wreck or get as far away from it as possible.

 daedalus wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I am going to sum it up for people too lazy to check it out.

Lazy or wise?

I'll take "wise" for $500, Alex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seriously though, this has been interesting to me from the point of view of "holy gak the internet is crazy".

This has been EXCEEDINGLY uncomfortable to me from the apparently genuine manifestations of emotion on both sides.

I can't figure out if I need to keep watching the train wreck or get as far away from it as possible.

Just sit and watch as the building starts to fall down.

Because we all know that the journalists aren't going to recover from this. Kotaku and Polygon are done. They can't come back after all this traffic damage.

They should be getting tons of traffic but they haven't been they have falling in the numbers by the thousands.

Their consumer base will never trust them again. And its funny they have destiny coverage but no one is listening to it. No one is waiting for their opinion and a lot of things were announced and they aren't getting traffic to their articles.

 Asherian Command wrote:
This is related to gamersgate

No, it's just more twitter drama that has nothing to do with any real issues here. Please stop triumphantly posting every random thing that you think might make the "enemy" look bad and stick to relevant issues.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Yeah its gotten dicey on twitter.

Okay, that's what put it into perspective.

"Woah man, twitter is serious business. You don't just call it dicey. Were you at the social network wars? Do you remember what it was like? Were you THERE, man? You remember Tom, man? I remember Tom."

Taking a step back, I'm really wondering if all these tempest in a teacup people genuinely realize how small they actually are.

No offense but when someone doesn't post any videos explaining the issues to people who don't 'get it', you all complain. When someone does, you all make smarmy remarks and wiseass retorts. Is there any pleasing you guys? You do realise you can just ignore this thread if you disagree with the message and ONLY have smarmy remarks to make right? At the very least, Peregine puts some effort into his arguments instead of going 'oh, we're so cool. let us make fun of this topic'

Sining wrote:
No offense but when someone doesn't post any videos explaining the issues to people who don't 'get it', you all complain. When someone does, you all make smarmy remarks and wiseass retorts. Is there any pleasing you guys? You do realise you can just ignore this thread if you disagree with the message and ONLY have smarmy remarks to make right? At the very least, Peregine puts some effort into his arguments instead of going 'oh, we're so cool. let us make fun of this topic'

What's the point of OT then? This is an MC Escher drawing of condescending donkey-caves. Everyone is condescending to everyone, but no one is on the bottom.

Also, I think that picking team "holy gak you ALL are manchildren (or womanchildren (or trans-multi-nonspecific-etcetrachildren), as appropriate) get over yourselves and live your god damned lives." instead of picking team red or team blue is an entirely valid choice.

Yes, because calling everyone manchildren is obviously a valid retort and is magically going to make people realise you're correct and see the errors of their ways. And if that doesn't work, you can always call them sheeple as well.

Also, I can't see the stickied topic where it says the point of OT is to come into threads and make smarmy retorts.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Because we all know that the journalists aren't going to recover from this.

Past history says otherwise. There have been controversies and flame wars in the past, even controversies over dishonesty in gaming journalism, and there haven't really been any long-term effects from it. The drama will keep going a while longer, and then the internet will find a new pet cause to get outraged about and everyone will move on with their lives. Because the simple fact is that all of the legitimate issues here are things that people have been quietly putting up with for a very long time, and don't really have any impact on their everyday lives.

Kotaku and Polygon are done. They can't come back after all this traffic damage.

That remains to be seen. They've lost traffic, but could gain it back next time another big thing happens if they're on the "right" side of it. And even if these two websites see a major drop in traffic someone else will just show up to replace them. And since nothing is being done about the fundamental issues that drive game reviewers to hand out easy 9/10s to every mediocre game they receive those replacements will have the same incentives to skew their reporting in favor of the game publishers and we'll be right back where we started.

And the sad thing is this was pretty much inevitable when the controversy started focusing on Zoe Quinn's problems instead of the journalism industry as a whole. This made it all about one person and buried the real points under a flood of garbage, letting the industry as a whole off the hook. And then of course the conversation derailed into arguing over whether a particular death threat was real or not and whining about how feminism and SJWs ruin everything, pushing the few legitimate issues even deeper into the background.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
This is related to gamersgate

No, it's just more twitter drama that has nothing to do with any real issues here. Please stop triumphantly posting every random thing that you think might make the "enemy" look bad and stick to relevant issues.

Hahaha Oh god. You really think that should be allowed then? Do you really think that the gamers are bad? I post evidence of someone attacking a teenage girl from the anti-gamer gate side, And yet you have said multiple times that the gamers are also doing this?

Ummm really?

You really ignore that and yet you and all the anti-gamer gaters on here have been saying we are misogynists and attacking us and then when we post evidence like this of anti-gamer gate person performing harassment you immedately say. "Nope That doesn't exist. Thats not relevant."
"LALALLAALA I can't hear you Asherian! Oh those sources are illegitamte, Lets post a kotaku and polygon article in defense to attack their claims!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:

Sining wrote:
No offense but when someone doesn't post any videos explaining the issues to people who don't 'get it', you all complain. When someone does, you all make smarmy remarks and wiseass retorts. Is there any pleasing you guys? You do realise you can just ignore this thread if you disagree with the message and ONLY have smarmy remarks to make right? At the very least, Peregine puts some effort into his arguments instead of going 'oh, we're so cool. let us make fun of this topic'

What's the point of OT then? This is an MC Escher drawing of condescending donkey-caves. Everyone is condescending to everyone, but no one is on the bottom.

Also, I think that picking team "holy gak you ALL are manchildren (or womanchildren (or trans-multi-nonspecific-etcetrachildren), as appropriate) get over yourselves and live your god damned lives." instead of picking team red or team blue is an entirely valid choice.

WEll thank you for not generalizing


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Because we all know that the journalists aren't going to recover from this.

Past history says otherwise. There have been controversies and flame wars in the past, even controversies over dishonesty in gaming journalism, and there haven't really been any long-term effects from it. The drama will keep going a while longer, and then the internet will find a new pet cause to get outraged about and everyone will move on with their lives. Because the simple fact is that all of the legitimate issues here are things that people have been quietly putting up with for a very long time, and don't really have any impact on their everyday lives.

Kotaku and Polygon are done. They can't come back after all this traffic damage.

That remains to be seen. They've lost traffic, but could gain it back next time another big thing happens if they're on the "right" side of it. And even if these two websites see a major drop in traffic someone else will just show up to replace them. And since nothing is being done about the fundamental issues that drive game reviewers to hand out easy 9/10s to every mediocre game they receive those replacements will have the same incentives to skew their reporting in favor of the game publishers and we'll be right back where we started.

And the sad thing is this was pretty much inevitable when the controversy started focusing on Zoe Quinn's problems instead of the journalism industry as a whole. This made it all about one person and buried the real points under a flood of garbage, letting the industry as a whole off the hook. And then of course the conversation derailed into arguing over whether a particular death threat was real or not and whining about how feminism and SJWs ruin everything, pushing the few legitimate issues even deeper into the background.

Difference, this is a smaller market, and it will stay for a while. A site lives on sites per a day. It is no fox news. This is an internet website that is sustained from viewership. They will have to have massive cutbacks and start firing people. That is the reality of the situation.

Except not to this degree. There has been this degree of an outrage. Or this big of amount of talk about. It has never lasted a month. It has lasted for a day or a week. But a solid month? That means something very wrong is going on.

You have yet to prove your statement and say it has happened in the past. The only relatable one is Doritio gate, But that was just poor taste, not corruption. They weren't telling him to give them a good review on a video game, they were literally decorating behind him. Its still terrible, but it is not full on corruption.

Its not having a game dev paying someone and saying. "Yeah if you rate my game well, my company will pay you well."
or
"Hey were friends review my game give it a good review I need cash!"

That is downright corruption. That is a problem.

You keep saying this over and over but yet you have ignored all my sources, you haven't even put the time to read them. You read the other articles that are posted on her that are 5 minutes long and all you have done is just plug your ears. and say "NOpe DOEsn't EXIST.

Sining wrote:
Yes, because calling everyone manchildren is obviously a valid retort and is magically going to make people realise you're correct and see the errors of their ways. And if that doesn't work, you can always call them sheeple as well.

Sometimes people are literally just being children. This really is the nerd equivalent of whatever the latest celebrity controversy on ESPN or TMZ.

Also, I can't see the stickied topic where it says the point of OT is to come into threads and make smarmy retorts.

Eh, some say de facto, some say de jure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

WEll thank you for not generalizing

No one deserves to be excluded, right?

 Asherian Command wrote:
I post evidence of someone attacking a teenage girl from the anti-gamer gate side, And yet you have said multiple times that the gamers are also doing this?

You posted evidence of one person posting something inappropriate on twitter, and then apologizing for doing it. That adds almost nothing to the discussion, and just derails it into more arguing about twitter drama. What happened to the original issue of corruption in gaming journalism?

 daedalus wrote:

Sining wrote:
Yes, because calling everyone manchildren is obviously a valid retort and is magically going to make people realise you're correct and see the errors of their ways. And if that doesn't work, you can always call them sheeple as well.

Sometimes people are literally just being children. This really is the nerd equivalent of whatever the latest celebrity controversy on ESPN or TMZ.

I'm not really sure what makes you then. I can't really think much of a person who apparently feels the need to come into a topic, one that he has to specifically click on, then post remarks in it referring to the people in it and interested in the issue as manchildren and children and nerds. I think this really says more about you than it does us.

 Asherian Command wrote:
You really think that should be allowed then? Do you really think that the gamers are bad? I post evidence of someone attacking a teenage girl from the anti-gamer gate side, And yet you have said multiple times that the gamers are also doing this?

Seriously, man, what the hell are you talking about? Some guy thought a teenage girl was an adult man, he said crap to her, then was proven wrong. Does that mean “Gamers are perfect little angels because someone was stupid”? What the hell is your reasoning here? Beside, does it look like Peregrine, Ashiraya or me are “anti-gamers”? I am pretty sure we all play games, and all qualify as gamers, you know…

 Peregrine wrote:
Past history says otherwise. There have been controversies and flame wars in the past, even controversies over dishonesty in gaming journalism, and there haven't really been any long-term effects from it.

Time will tell. It's what, week 5 in this?

It could peter out, or could be another Killian documents

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_controversy#Aftermath

Otoh, it's been interesting to find out just how little the blogs do anything type of journalism. Or how much of an ol'boys club they really are.

Sining wrote:
I'm not really sure what makes you then. I can't really think much of a person who apparently feels the need to come into a topic, one that he has to specifically click on, then post remarks in it referring to the people in it and interested in the issue as manchildren and children and nerds. I think this really says more about you than it does us.

I assume you're speaking to me.

I wasn't that person to begin with. I was actually interested, intrigued, and engaged. Then I saw that there was nothing really actually available to progress the situation beyond more drama still. FOR DAYS.

I spent my entire day today debugging a next generation delivery system for an international news corporation. I say this not to laud myself; I'm a QA guy. I'm replaceable and meaningless, but I'm a cog in a big machine that makes some portion of the real world world turn. Now I turn here, and it finally dawns on me. Here, we have a set of consumers, and a set of overglorified bloggers quickly becoming irrelevant to people who'll youtube their thoughts for free at odds with each other. And we're hearing that, oh no, twitter is getting dicey?

I'm sorry. It's just that the outrage and strife and emotion and effort on all parts is literally just a grain of sand on a beach that'll be forgotten in the years to come. I'm gonna unsubscribe this thread, go outside and smoke my pipe and drink a beer and look at the stars and think about how awesome it would be if we were building the spaceships that we might be if we weren't so incensed about what the moron next in line in the circlejerk was saying on some overrated website.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I post evidence of someone attacking a teenage girl from the anti-gamer gate side, And yet you have said multiple times that the gamers are also doing this?

You posted evidence of one person posting something inappropriate on twitter, and then apologizing for doing it. That adds almost nothing to the discussion, and just derails it into more arguing about twitter drama. What happened to the original issue of corruption in gaming journalism?

It does it shows they are unprofessional and that is a breach of ethics in journalism. You can criticize, but you can't harass people that trust and look up to you. That is wrong!

I could post you an entire page of it If I wanted too, and I have the mind too do so.

But I won't because the material in there is extremely vile. And its from games journalists. I have told you again and again that some journalists have called us worse than ISIS. Misogynists, manchildern. And that is a defensiveness that shows that there is something going on.

This is a problem that is an extreme problem. We give these people power and what do they do with it. They attack us, they post articles about us being misogynists! And you sit here and say. "ITS HAPPENED BEFORE SEE!"

No it has not! There has never been this big of a back lash. This drama started up because of censorship, there is corruption in game journalism, there is censorship of legitmate criticism, taking down peoples videos because they don't agree with you and happen to dislike your game. Even though they are covered under fair use to use that image, under law.

If you keep saying that we are misgoynists. Look in the mirror. Because there are more woman on this side than there are on the other side. There is but a dozen of them on the anti-gamer gate side. And yet we have hundreds of thousands of people all raising their voices and saying. "We will not be labeled like that. We are gamers, we will not take this . Enough games media! We trusted you with power. And now we want it back!"

And you say that is wrong?

It is wrong for the consumers to want their power back now? Its not too late, it is the perfect time. And you know what I think. I think a reasonable human being would observe both sides, not just one side. And see who is right in their argument. Do I support the people who insult me and generalize and attack everyone and censor criticism (anti gamers gate)? Or do I go with the people who are fighting for change, yeah there might be idiots who harass but in every movement you will find that!

Be it the civil rights movement, feminist movement, egilitarian movement, socialist movement, same sex marriage movement. You will find crazies in their, you will find people who harass other people, you will find trolls who try to stir people up!

Have you forgotten that both sides are human beings? That both sides have opinions? And in this case. One side the anti-gamer gaters are completely wrong on the subject? While gamer gaters thus far have had the only valid complaints other than you are being mean!

And read articles and become reasonable in your argument.

Don't attack people. This is your problem peregrine, manchu everyone who is attacking the gamers. You need to sit back and absorb it. See both sides of the argument and choose the lesser of the two evils. Do you believe the people who say they represent gamer's 'best interest' and hide behind insults and attacks on several well known people? Or do you join those who want the media to learn it is not all powerful?

The decision is yours and some of you I will not convince. Because you don't want to see keep your mind open. I accept that. But you can't say that everyone in the movement that we call gamers gate are manchildern and misgoynists. You can't insult all of them because they don't fit your narrative of what is going on.

I'm sorry, I cant hear you over the email I'm writing to their advertisers