Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2014/09/19 01:05:52
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
http://imgur.com/h2CzZNC Samsung supports Kotaku. Samsung needs to stop supporting unfair and biased gaming news sites. Email d2.cohen@sea.samsung.com to ask him to politely stop funding this insanity.
2014/09/19 01:12:04
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
VorpalBunny74 wrote: He is increasing his knowledge in a field he admits he knew little about.
What would you call that, if not research?
A new hobby?
"Research is a process of steps used to collect and analyze information to increase our understanding of a topic or issue" - John W. Creswell
I'm really sorry, Hybrid, but what he's doing is called research. It what people do when they want to learn more about something they don't know about. It's what normal journalists do.
Strangely, it reminds me of a certain someone who admitted she didn't play video games in a conference, and then in later her kickstarter mentioned she loves video games. You would be invalidating her work, because in your opinion it wouldn't have been research. Why would you do that to her, Hybrid?
Automatically Appended Next Post: . . .
Oh dear, Milo released some incriminating emails from some senior games journalists. . . but forgot to remove their contact details.
I believe this is the calm right before the storm.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/19 03:22:35
Yeah... if you've got a spare 1/2hr to 45 mins you might want to use that time to rethinkthatposition (yes, the articles are quite in-depth, but well worth reading).
Enjoy!
VorpalBunny74 wrote: Oh dear, Milo released some incriminating emails from some senior games journalists. . . but forgot to remove their contact details.
I believe this is the calm right before the storm.
He did. He released a stack of GameJournoPro (or whatever it's called) E-mails, but some of them had contact info on them, so he took the whole lot down and is going to remove them before putting anything back up.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/09/20 03:04:29
2014/09/19 08:30:48
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
So I saw this from the Dalai Lama this morning and all I could think is, he forget the #notyourshield tag
If your mental attitude is positive, even when threats abound, you won’t lose your inner peace. On the other hand, if your mind is negative, marked by fear, suspicion and feelings of helplessness, even among your best friends, in a pleasant atmosphere and comfortable surroundings, you won’t be happy.
In other news, I've unsubbed from cracked. I'd link the article from yesterday but it wasn't worth reading.
2014/09/19 18:01:51
Subject: Re:The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
Some small city in nowhere, Illinois,United States
sirlynchmob wrote: So I saw this from the Dalai Lama this morning and all I could think is, he forget the #notyourshield tag
If your mental attitude is positive, even when threats abound, you won’t lose your inner peace. On the other hand, if your mind is negative, marked by fear, suspicion and feelings of helplessness, even among your best friends, in a pleasant atmosphere and comfortable surroundings, you won’t be happy.
In other news, I've unsubbed from cracked. I'd link the article from yesterday but it wasn't worth reading.
I say pastebin it. Do not give them the clicks but let the people know what the article detailed.
The obligatory non-40K/non-Warmahordes player in the forum.
Hobby Goals and Resolution of 2017: Paint at least 95% of my collection (even if getting new items). Buy small items only at 70% complete.
2014/09/19 18:50:53
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
Anita's videos are not censorship, she is performing critical appraisal, which is something that is required if you want video games to be taken seriously as an art form.
"With pop hits provin' unlikely, Captain Beefheart retreated to a cabin to shout at his band for months on end. The result was Trout Mask Replica."
2014/09/19 18:55:27
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
Yeah... if you've got a spare 1/2hr to 45 mins you might want to use that time to rethinkthatposition (yes, the articles are quite in-depth, but well worth reading).
Enjoy!
I really agree with those articles, though I'm not sure where he was going with that last bit. I mean, I understand the argument, but was he trying to use her own arguments when saying that "If all men had were role models like Bowser, instead of both Bowser and Mario, men would be a lot more villainous as a whole"?
2014/09/19 20:35:46
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2014/09/19 21:09:52
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
CorporateLogo wrote: Anita's videos are not censorship, she is performing critical appraisal, which is something that is required if you want video games to be taken seriously as an art form.
Sigvatr wrote: Tons of /v/ mods have been fired for speaking up against the incoherent claims and a 4chan supermod is BFF with Zoe. Surprise.
It's worse than that. Latest skuttlebutt shows that Moot himself is good friends with a couple of folks from Gawker media, as in the guys running many of these so-called gaming websites. Latest info is that Moot has instructed his mods to go out of their way to annihilate all #GG threads. Hell, Moot was even in the audience at Anita's latest call to nonsense.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/20 03:07:27
CorporateLogo wrote: Anita's videos are not censorship, she is performing critical appraisal, which is something that is required if you want video games to be taken seriously as an art form.
Sigvatr wrote: Tons of /v/ mods have been fired for speaking up against the incoherent claims and a 4chan supermod is BFF with Zoe. Surprise.
It's worse than that. Latest skuttlebutt shows that Moot himself is good friends with a couple of folks from Gawker media, as in the guys running many of these so-called gaming websites. Latest info is that Moot has instructed his mods to go out of their way to annihilate all #GG threads. Hell, Moot was even in the audience at Anita's latest call to nonsense.
From what's been discovered, Moot is trying to get a startup of something else, so he's basically trying to be "In the Know" like the rest of the journalists/developers in this group.
2014/09/20 03:32:00
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
CorporateLogo wrote: Anita's videos are not censorship, she is performing critical appraisal, which is something that is required if you want video games to be taken seriously as an art form.
Clearly you don't understand the difference between criticism and censorship. Saying "this is bad, you shouldn't do it" is not the same as saying "stop doing this or we're going to throw you in prison". Her criticism only has the power to cause change if people agree with it and voluntarily make those changes in their own work, she has absolutely no power to force anyone to do anything.
Also, that first article isn't really off to a great start when it spends a whole page on a ridiculous guilt by association "argument". The fact that she uses a term that is kind of like something that was used by Dworkin* does not magically negate the substance of the argument.
*Who, for the record, is an extremist lunatic and completely irrelevant.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2014/09/20 03:39:37
Subject: Re:The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
H.B.M.C. wrote: Clearly you didn't read the articles, which explain the two quite well and why Anita is one and not the other.
I read it, and it's a terrible argument by an author who also clearly doesn't understand the difference between censorship and criticism. You can't censor something if you have no power to force the person creating it to obey your demands.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2014/09/20 03:46:29
Subject: The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
Totalbiscuit finished his wasteland 2 stream this morning (evening US time) with some commentary on the situation. He likened the recent "youtubers accepting money for promotional content" discussion recently to the "corruption in games journalism" we have here. The youtubers had an open discussion about it and many quickly started being more open about it. The games journalists did the opposite, they closed ranks and attacked the gamers instead.
2014/09/20 03:48:34
Subject: Re:The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
I just don't get the "if x want's be taken seriously as art/art form" thing
For one, it sounds like a scolding parent in tone but my primary issue with that statement is art is inherently subjective. I've heard friends say that exact thing and it left me baffled. That bungie game made half a billion on release, someone's taking that artform seriously it seems.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/20 03:52:06
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.
2014/09/20 03:54:49
Subject: Re:The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
H.B.M.C. wrote: Clearly you didn't read the articles, which explain the two quite well and why Anita is one and not the other.
I read it, and it's a terrible argument by an author who also clearly doesn't understand the difference between censorship and criticism. You can't censor something if you have no power to force the person creating it to obey your demands.
It was a fantastic, well-sourced and well-put-together argument that cleanly and clinically dismantled everything Anita has ever said. The fact that you don't see that shows a failure of comprehension on your part. As to your second point, you can still want to censor something even if you lack the power to do so, and that's what Anita wants - to censor things. Just because she can't do it herself (yet) doesn't mean that she doesn't want to.
But, as always, I'm a complete idiot for stepping into the ring with you Peregrine. You never change, never back down, and never ever listen to anything anyone says when they run counter to your cast-iron opinions. You are a wall - a big, strong, impenetrable wall. The good news is that walls are stuck being walls, and everyone can walk away.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Clearly you didn't read the articles, which explain the two quite well and why Anita is one and not the other.
I read it, and it's a terrible argument by an author who also clearly doesn't understand the difference between censorship and criticism. You can't censor something if you have no power to force the person creating it to obey your demands.
It was a fantastic, well-sourced and well-put-together argument that cleanly and clinically dismantled everything Anita has ever said. The fact that you don't see that shows a failure of comprehension on your part. As to your second point, you can still want to censor something even if you lack the power to do so, and that's what Anita wants - to censor things. Just because she can't do it herself (yet) doesn't mean that she doesn't want to.
But, as always, I'm a complete idiot for stepping into the ring with you Peregrine. You never change, never back down, and never ever listen to anything anyone says when they run counter to your cast-iron opinions. You are a wall - a big, strong, impenetrable wall. The good news is that walls are stuck being walls, and everyone can walk away.
*walks away*
Her desire to do so - coupled with being brought in to do seminars at EA - implies increasing ability to do so too. We need to put a stop to that ASAP. By all means create a variety of games that appeal to different people. Don't do so at the cost of the traditional games market. It's part of why we were so ragey at EA for Dungeon Keeper mobile.
2014/09/20 04:08:50
Subject: Re:The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
H.B.M.C. wrote: Clearly you didn't read the articles, which explain the two quite well and why Anita is one and not the other.
I read it, and it's a terrible argument by an author who also clearly doesn't understand the difference between censorship and criticism. You can't censor something if you have no power to force the person creating it to obey your demands.
It was a fantastic, well-sourced and well-put-together argument that cleanly and clinically dismantled everything Anita has ever said. The fact that you don't see that shows a failure of comprehension on your part. As to your second point, you can still want to censor something even if you lack the power to do so, and that's what Anita wants - to censor things. Just because she can't do it herself (yet) doesn't mean that she doesn't want to.
But, as always, I'm a complete idiot for stepping into the ring with you Peregrine. You never change, never back down, and never ever listen to anything anyone says when they run counter to your cast-iron opinions. You are a wall - a big, strong, impenetrable wall. The good news is that walls are stuck being walls, and everyone can walk away.
*walks away*
you forgot to write "drops the mic" lol
Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.
2014/09/20 04:22:01
Subject: Re:The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
H.B.M.C. wrote: It was a fantastic, well-sourced and well-put-together argument that cleanly and clinically dismantled everything Anita has ever said.
It was very long and made a few good points, but the argument about censorship was not one of them. And it didn't "dismantle" anything, even at its best it still just pointed out some gray areas and room for disagreement.
The fact that you don't see that shows a failure of comprehension on your part.
Lack of agreement is not the same thing as lack of comprehension. I understood exactly what it was saying, the author is just wrong about most of it. Let me summarize:
1) Sarkeesian said some things about sex and objectification that are superficially similar to a nutcase nobody takes seriously. This is a terrible guilt by association "argument" that the author should be embarrassed to include.
2) Sarkeesian is in favor of censorship. This is just plain stupid and relies on an assumption that persuading certain game companies to change their products would be censorship. It clearly isn't, because anyone who thinks it is a profitable business decision would still be free to publish their own games that she doesn't approve of, and she couldn't do anything to stop them. Nothing in those articles even comes close to supporting a claim that Sarkeesian is in favor of government restrictions on game content, which would be required for it to be censorship.
3) Sarkeesian's arguments aren't cited and supported to the level of peer-reviewed scientific journals. This is just stating the obvious: it's a series of opinion videos aimed at a general audience, not a high-level academic work. The author gets extra comedy points for complaining about how some of her sources are in journals that require you to pay money to read them, which is pretty standard when you're talking about academic work.
4) Sarkeesian's arguments involve controversial gender-essentialist claims about "masculine" and "feminine" attributes. This is actually the best point the author makes, there are major issues with this approach both in the lack of evidence to support it and the morality of supporting sexist assumptions about gender roles. On the other hand, Sarkeesian does have at least a decent point in that simply flipping the appearance of a formerly-male character is a rather superficial way of adding equality to a game.
5) Sarkeesian's criticism provides a no-win scenario for game developers, and makes "women crush men" the only acceptable story. This is a pretty weak argument because it's based on considering Sarkeesian's criticism in the context of a single game, rather than games as a whole. While she does mention specific games as an example (and arguably gets it wrong) the larger point isn't that one particular game has a problem, it's that gaming as a whole keeps using the same "women as damsels" story. A world in which those same "save the damsel" games existed but the gender of each character was determined by a random coin flip would satisfy her criticism, especially if media and society as a whole followed a similar trend.
As to your second point, you can still want to censor something even if you lack the power to do so, and that's what Anita wants - to censor things.
I see nothing in there that suggests that she wants government regulation of game content. And yes, that's what is required for it to be censorship. Simply persuading game developers to voluntarily change their products is not censorship.
But, as always, I'm a complete idiot for stepping into the ring with you Peregrine. You never change, never back down, and never ever listen to anything anyone says when they run counter to your cast-iron opinions. You are a wall - a big, strong, impenetrable wall. The good news is that walls are stuck being walls, and everyone can walk away.
See, you're just missing the obvious explanation her: I never back down because I only post when I already know I'm right. And, in this case, I'm right.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yonan wrote: Her desire to do so - coupled with being brought in to do seminars at EA - implies increasing ability to do so too.
And you also don't seem to understand the difference between criticism and censorship. Persuading EA to change their products is not censorship, nor is it even close to censorship.
By all means create a variety of games that appeal to different people. Don't do so at the cost of the traditional games market.
You do realize that these are for-profit businesses, right? If the "traditional games" market is less profitable than the "Sarkeesian-style games" market then guess what any sensible company is going to do. It isn't reasonable to expect a for-profit business to throw away money on an unprofitable product line just because a small number of fans want to have it.
And of course if there is enough of a market for "traditional games" to be profitable then it doesn't matter what EA does, if they abandon the market then someone else will step in and fill that hole. Because, no matter how much you talk about censorship, it really isn't.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/20 04:26:56
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
2014/09/20 04:30:28
Subject: Re:The Gamergate, Scandal, Conspiracy, and Journalism Corruption
Yonan wrote: Her desire to do so - coupled with being brought in to do seminars at EA - implies increasing ability to do so too.
And you also don't seem to understand the difference between criticism and censorship. Persuading EA to change their products is not censorship, nor is it even close to censorship.
Semantics. She's convincing them to change the product to suit her agenda. We don't want her to do that.
By all means create a variety of games that appeal to different people. Don't do so at the cost of the traditional games market.
You do realize that these are for-profit businesses, right? If the "traditional games" market is less profitable than the "Sarkeesian-style games" market then guess what any sensible company is going to do. It isn't reasonable to expect a for-profit business to throw away money on an unprofitable product line just because a small number of fans want to have it.
You do realize that PHBs often make very bad decisions and may think pandering to her will help them increase the female demographic when it's doubtful at best without realising it would seriously cut into their male demographic. Just like the journalist sites are for-profit businesses but didn't realize that pandering to sarkeezian/quinn/anti-gamer/whatever it is will have a large impact on their profitability by driving away many of their main user base.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/20 04:32:22