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 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
You're forgetting the most insidious form of censorship:

Self censorship.

I purposely excluded that

Touche.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Touche.

You have a great point though. I wonder how many stories haven't been told because the journo went 'Nah, better not. Might hurt my career'

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=626636177&oldid=626062847

It is disappointing that journalists still aren't understanding what the problem is. The interview with Brad Wardell was good, though I think he still (understandably) holds a grudge about the SJWs attacking him awhile ago hehe.

Well he started receiving threats. Stands to reason he'd be a bit annoyed about that.

I was wondering why Boogie stopped talking about GamerGate. this is really depressing.

I have been ‘cautioned’ to be careful about associating with a movement that is supposedly being more and more associated with ‘misogyny and harassment’. I was told by more people than I can count that I had ‘burnt several bridges’ already and I should be wary of burning any more, especially once this whole thing ‘turns sour’.
Not from just one person, but from many.

So if you’re wondering if I was ‘harassed’, the answer is not exactly. But I was certainly encouraged by several people whom I have considered friends and business associates that I should step the feth back to save my career.

Censorship indeed. Toe the party line or you're out.

---

Yeah I feel for Wardell and admire that he's still speaking out about it. Hopefully he doesn't suffer a backlash for it. I like to think that the market for his games - games like Sins of a Solar Empire - are mature enough to not fall for this gak.

 Yonan wrote:
Censorship indeed. Toe the party line or you're out.

Again, this is not censorship. A company declining to give him a platform to speak from is not the same thing as losing his right to speak. And freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences from that speech. He is still free to say whatever he likes, and nobody can stop him.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Censorship indeed. Toe the party line or you're out.

Again, this is not censorship. A company declining to give him a platform to speak from is not the same thing as losing his right to speak. And freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences from that speech. He is still free to say whatever he likes, and nobody can stop him.

Right.. the consequences being an internet hate campaign, death threats, slander, doxxing of personal info, threats that his career will be over...

All the things that GamerGaters are accused of, have been and are being done by the radical feminist and corrupt "journalist" side too.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Yonan wrote:
Censorship indeed. Toe the party line or you're out.

Again, this is not censorship. A company declining to give him a platform to speak from is not the same thing as losing his right to speak. And freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences from that speech. He is still free to say whatever he likes, and nobody can stop him.

Right.. the consequences being an internet hate campaign, death threats, slander, doxxing of personal info, threats that his career will be over...

Gah, others responding to him still has me seeing his posts. You're very much right Edithae. Threats to "shut up or we'll force you out" is definitely censorship of a very vile kind. It's supposed friends and colleagues saying "das ist verboten" when any reputable industry should welcome frank and open discussion on what it's doing. Boogies livelihood and possible personal safety are on the line here. I'm sad that he chose to give in but I do understand it and can't blame him for it.

---

Another article from Breitbart, HOW SLOPPY, BIASED VIDEO GAMES REPORTING ALMOST DESTROYED A CEO, giving a decent look at how Kuchera has substantial double standards in how he reports:

Ben Kuchera, opinion editor at games website Polygon, publicised lurid sexual allegations about the chief executive of Stardock, a 20-year video games industry veteran, in an apparent attempt to do professional damage to someone he perceived to have right-wing politics, two industry sources have told Breitbart London.

*Note fully dismissed allegations with signed letter of apology from the originator.

Regular readers will be struck by the irony of Kuchera's responsibility for this mess: Kuchera was seen in private emails leaked to Breitbart London last week demanding that The Escapist, a rival website, take down forum posts that discussed sexual allegations about Zoe Quinn, a developer whose colourful private life has been the subject of widespread reporting in recent weeks.

"I received an email from someone who described my house in sufficient detail to concern me and promised to kill me, rape my wife and sodomize my son," Wardell told Breitbart on Monday. "My Wikipedia page was defaced with people putting up that my sons were 'gay.' People today still refer to the allegations in themselves as proof.

This happens to a male in the industry and no one bats an eye.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Right.. the consequences being an internet hate campaign, death threats, slander, doxxing of personal info, threats that his career will be over...

Nono, you don't understand, it's ok to do this to a man. He's not a woman, after all.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Right.. the consequences being an internet hate campaign, death threats, slander, doxxing of personal info, threats that his career will be over...

Nono, you don't understand, it's ok to do this to a man. He's not a woman, after all.

And this remark was necessary why?

Pointing out the hypocrisy demonstrated by a large part of the discussion's participants.

I know hypocrisy is in the thread. Asherian Command, for example, two pages back. But it's not really important, and snide remarks only serve as flamebait.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Right.. the consequences being an internet hate campaign, death threats, slander, doxxing of personal info, threats that his career will be over...

Nono, you don't understand, it's ok to do this to a man. He's not a woman, after all.

And this remark was necessary why?

Because we have multiple cases of internet hate campaigns against video game developers, one female (Zoe Quinn) and one male (Brad Wardell).

Guess which hate campaign the mainstream video gaming media doesn't give a flying feth about? (And in some cases, are even participating in said hate campaign).

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Right.. the consequences being an internet hate campaign, death threats, slander, doxxing of personal info, threats that his career will be over...

Nono, you don't understand, it's ok to do this to a man. He's not a woman, after all.

And this remark was necessary why?

Because we have multiple cases of internet hate campaigns against video game developers, one female (Zoe Quinn) and one male (Brad Wardell).

Guess which hate campaign the mainstream video gaming media doesn't give a flying feth about? (And in some cases, are even participating in said hate campaign).

To me, it appeared as though the remark targeted something else than mainstream video gaming media. To my knowledge, both sides in this debate agree media are doing bad things.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I know hypocrisy is in the thread. Asherian Command, for example, committed some rather spectacular hypocrisy a few pages back. But it's not really important, and snide remarks only serve as flamebait.

Peregrine' s snide comments being the exception?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I know hypocrisy is in the thread. Asherian Command, for example, committed some rather spectacular hypocrisy a few pages back. But it's not really important, and snide remarks only serve as flamebait.

Peregrine' s snide comments being the exception?

Did I mention Peregrine?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I know hypocrisy is in the thread. Asherian Command, for example, two pages back. But it's not really important, and snide remarks only serve as flamebait.

Dodged the point. The problem is that the entire thing became big because Quinn's a woman, nothing more. Same thing happening to a man, who cares. WORSE, same thing happening to a man who is not a disgusting liar. But alas, he's just a man. It's ok.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I know hypocrisy is in the thread. Asherian Command, for example, two pages back. But it's not really important, and snide remarks only serve as flamebait.

Dodged the point. The problem is that the entire thing became big because Quinn's a woman, nothing more. Same thing happening to a man, who cares. WORSE, same thing happening to a man who is not a disgusting liar. But alas, he's just a man. It's ok.

Yes, media abuse the presence of sexism (and, thus, feminism), twisting it into a shield while the internet turns it in the wrong direction.

But there is no 'point' to dodge here. Sure, it's certainly possible that Zoe recieved more sympathy for no good reason. So... what does this prove, exactly?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Right.. the consequences being an internet hate campaign, death threats, slander, doxxing of personal info, threats that his career will be over...

Nono, you don't understand, it's ok to do this to a man. He's not a woman, after all.

And this remark was necessary why?

Because we have multiple cases of internet hate campaigns against video game developers, one female (Zoe Quinn) and one male (Brad Wardell).

Guess which hate campaign the mainstream video gaming media doesn't give a flying feth about? (And in some cases, are even participating in said hate campaign).

To me, it appeared as though the remark targeted something else than mainstream video gaming media. To my knowledge, both sides in this debate agree media are doing bad things.

Oh absolutely. But the thing is, not all the GamerGate people criticising Quinn and gaming journalists participate in the hate campaigns, yet ALL opposition and criticism are being categorised and slandered as misogynists. It's ad hominem on a grand scale.

Plus there's the NotYourShield people, female gamers, LGBT people, ethnic minorities etc who are tired of being treated as a political football by gaming journalists, yet are derided and slandered and dismissed by the media.


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 Ashiraya wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I know hypocrisy is in the thread. Asherian Command, for example, committed some rather spectacular hypocrisy a few pages back. But it's not really important, and snide remarks only serve as flamebait.

Peregrine' s snide comments being the exception?

Did I mention Peregrine?

The omission is what I'm referring to...

 Ashiraya wrote:
Sure, it's certainly possible that Zoe recieved more sympathy for no good reason. So... what does this prove, exactly?

What do you think it proves.

1. Woman claims harassment.
Automatically assumed to be telling the truth (Zoe vs Wizardchan), and given media attention sympathetic to her case (such as on the Escapist, where a few weeks ago they admitted to simply believing Zoe and taking her side without checking the truth).

2. Man claims harassment.
Doesn't get ignored, but any coverage simply demonises him (such as in the case of Stardock's CEO).

I realise that this is a very broad brush I'm using, but that's what Sigvatr is getting at.

Yarrrrr.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Oh absolutely. But the thing is, not all the GamerGate people criticising Quinn and gaming journalists participate in the hate campaigns, yet ALL opposition and criticism are being categorised and slandered as misogynists. It's ad hominem on a grand scale.

Plus there's the NotYourShield people, female gamers, LGBT people, ethnic minorities etc who are tired of being treated as a political football by gaming journalists, yet are derided and slandered and dismissed by the media.

Oh yes, I fully agree. I am an LGBT activist in real life, these issues are close to heart for me.

I am seeing some rather unpleasant implications going on here, though. NotYourShield is good, but people taking the Quinn/Wardell discrepancy as an excuse to snipe at feminism is... not good. I am less concerned with what happens with the scandals and journalism as it seems most people have realised the problems, but I am concerned about the snipes.


As for Peregrine? That's between him and you guys. Currently, I have no comments on his posts. He has not broken any forum rules yet, at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Sure, it's certainly possible that Zoe recieved more sympathy for no good reason. So... what does this prove, exactly?

What do you think it proves.

1. Woman claims harassment.
Automatically assumed to be telling the truth (Zoe vs Wizardchan), and given media attention sympathetic to her case (such as on the Escapist, where a few weeks ago they admitted to simply believing Zoe and taking her side without checking the truth).

2. Man claims harassment.
Doesn't get ignored, but any coverage simply demonises him (such as in the case of Stardock's CEO).

I realise that this is a very broad brush I'm using, but that's what Sigvatr is getting at.

I do agree that the double standard is a problem. I have never claimed otherwise.

I only questioned the necessity for being snide to begin with, actually.

Exactly the ridiculous double standard by the reporters in the industry, and far from the only one. There's the whole Neogaf owner doing his own "mysogynistic posts" tyhen banning anyone that ever refers to them whilst being very much anti-gg because "they're all mysoginists", and so much more. It's ... bad. Very bad.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am seeing some rather unpleasant implications going on here, though. NotYourShield is good, but people taking the Quinn/Wardell discrepancy as an excuse to snipe at feminism is... not good. I am less concerned with what happens with the scandals and journalism as it seems most people have realised the problems, but I am concerned about the snipes.

Feminists like Sommers and Watson snipe at (extreme) feminism for the exact same reason - they're using "helping make women equal" as an excuse to hate men and bring men down. The pro-gg crowd aren't mysoginists, anti-women, anti-feminist, we're anti-extremist-feminists, just the same as feminists are anti-extremist-feminists. Feminism is about equality - something I think the vast majority of us want. Extremist feminism is not. Did you see how quickly a lot of us latched onto Sommers when she seemed to be speaking on "our side"? We're decidedly not anti-feminist in the GG crowd.

I disapprove of extremism in general, including extreme feminism.

I do not believe the GG crowd in general are sexists, but I believe sexists are using GG as a weapon and I consider this a problem as well.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I disapprove of extremism in general, including extreme feminism.

I do not believe the GG crowd in general are sexists, but I believe sexists are using GG as a weapon and I consider this a problem as well.

Maybe. But the mainstream gaming media is either unable or unwilling to distinguish between legitimate criticism, and the mob of internet trolls that materialise around ALL controversial issues on the internet.

Instead of responding to actual critics like Mundane Matt, gaming "journalists" instead point to the extremely vocal minority of sexist trolls and declare "these people are abusive and sexist! Ergo everyone n that side of the debate are misogynist!"

They also rarely report on the anti GamerGate trolls, carrying out their own hate campaigns against anyone who challenges their narrative. In some cases journalists are even colluding in those hate campaigns.


Thank you for clarifying your opinions though. I can now stop perceiving you as one of the "extremists".







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In other news... ISIS militants are raping children as young as nine...

Also, to clarify above (for anyone who didn't know), when I said the Escapist admitted to believing Zoe without checking her story I should also point out that they didn't weasel their way out of it or put a 'but' at the end of their admission. To their credit they acknowledged their error and apologised. That's what people found to be in the wrong, or people who are found to have made snap judgements, should be doing. What you don't do is release 10 'hit' articles over a 48 hour period attacking your main demographic.

Yep, Escapist handled that pretty well. I think the article is still up and is still... not ideal... but it's better. They're also hosting a gamergate discussion - one of the few main sites to not censor it completely - so I'm at least content with them.

 Yonan wrote:
Yep, Escapist handled that pretty well. I think the article is still up and is still... not ideal... but it's better. They're also hosting a gamergate discussion - one of the few main sites to not censor it completely - so I'm at least content with them.

They actually got attacked over it as well, with the DDOS.