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 Sigvatr wrote:
Yep. Charging for mandatory updates is just ridiculous.

Just like codex books do. It sucks, but it's consistent with GW's other sales models.

People will argue to the death that not only is it legal to play forgeworld, but that you have to accept that. You don't. Just like if someone brings a transcendent ctan, you can say you don't want to play against it.

There are many problems with forgeworld.

Their rules are spread out, multiple copies of them exist, and if you don't know, someone can bring an earlier more advantageous set to the game, like the old contemptor rules. Yes the armies have rulebooks, but anyone who plays the actual game knows what basic army books are on what edition and how updated they are/what is next to be released. They are also discussed like units are on this board constantly, so even without a physical copy you know the jist of it. The only forgeworld units you are likely to know about are the ones someone brings regularly. Which brings you to point number 2.

Cheeze. Oh forgeworld makes balanced units you say, or even underpowered? Lets take a look across the boards and see how many of them are on there. Oh look, all of none. Forgeworld is statted and point priced to sell. If you want someone to pay 60,000 dollars for a luxury car, it damn well better be superior to the 20,000 dollar model next to it. As much as forgefriends like to defend it as being as balanced as the rest of the game, you will never, ever, ever, ever see thses units. Instead you will see superior land raider variants, experimental rules riptides who were CLEARLY bait and switched to move plastic, cheap options for armies who should not have them for balance reasons such as saber platforms. If someone just wanted death korps of kreig models because they look far superior to the other guard, more power to them. Stand in models like that for regular ones make the game more interesting. But people are straight faced lying to you if they tell you because GW decided to be lazy and just break what little of their game remained, that forgeworld units have no balance issues whatsoever.




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Also the game is on the way out, 7th being able to use anything, and thus having to buy more and more powerful units to compete with your friends elder army supplemented with an imperial knight lance is just the company pulling the string on its golden parachute, trying to artificially inflate the value of the company so some sucker like Hasbro buys it before it fails.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Yep. Charging for mandatory updates is just ridiculous.

Just like new codexes then?


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 Orock wrote:
Oh forgeworld makes balanced units you say, or even underpowered? Lets take a look across the boards and see how many of them are on there. Oh look, all of none.

This would be a lie. Or do you really want to argue that these are OP:





FW makes a lot of varied things with some things focused solely on fluff and others being more crunchy, but they aren't a full line of cheesy gak. To claim otherwise is just slander.

 Orock wrote:
People will argue to the death that not only is it legal to play forgeworld, but that you have to accept that. You don't. Just like if someone brings a transcendent ctan, you can say you don't want to play against it.

There are many problems with forgeworld.

Their rules are spread out, multiple copies of them exist, and if you don't know, someone can bring an earlier more advantageous set to the game, like the old contemptor rules. Yes the armies have rulebooks, but anyone who plays the actual game knows what basic army books are on what edition and how updated they are/what is next to be released.

I'd argue this really. People who frequent boards like this might know that. Such players are a minority. Most players don't necessarily know what armies were released when or what's next or what subfactions have books and whatnot. Yeah, FW stuff isn't quite as well known, but that's why if you're running FW stuff you're expected to bring your rules, and cheating with different/older rules isn't any different than cheating any other way.

Cheeze. Oh forgeworld makes balanced units you say, or even underpowered? Lets take a look across the boards and see how many of them are on there. Oh look, all of none. Forgeworld is statted and point priced to sell. If you want someone to pay 60,000 dollars for a luxury car, it damn well better be superior to the 20,000 dollar model next to it.

Most people looking for tactical advice on an internet message board like this are probably looking to build competitive lists, and thus will use the most competitive units, FW or no.

As much as forgefriends

Are we really coming up with derogatory names now?

like to defend it as being as balanced as the rest of the game, you will never, ever, ever, ever see thses units.

Says you. I run many routinely. I've been running a DKoK Assault Brigade army list almost exclusively for a while here, and, aside from a couple of the artillery units, I'd hardly consider most of the units, especially infantry units, in the list to be exactly a bargain.

Instead you will see superior land raider variants,

such as?

experimental rules riptides who were CLEARLY bait and switched to move plastic

that's 100% speculation on your part, and they always were clearly marked as Experimental and subject to change from day 1.

cheap options for armies who should not have them for balance reasons such as saber platforms.

Sabre platforms can't shoot at ground targets anymore except for snapshots, they're hardly the handy replacement they were for a grand total of 18 months after GW changed the Artillery unit type rules.

If someone just wanted death korps of kreig models because they look far superior to the other guard, more power to them. Stand in models like that for regular ones make the game more interesting. But people are straight faced lying to you if they tell you because GW decided to be lazy and just break what little of their game remained, that forgeworld units have no balance issues whatsoever.

Nobody said that all FW stuff is perfect, only that there's relatively few straight up broken things, and that, on the whole, it's hard to make the case that it's worse than codex books.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Yep. Charging for mandatory updates is just ridiculous.

Just like new codexes then?


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 Orock wrote:
Oh forgeworld makes balanced units you say, or even underpowered? Lets take a look across the boards and see how many of them are on there. Oh look, all of none.

This would be a lie. Or do you really want to argue that these are OP:





FW makes a lot of varied things with some things focused solely on fluff and others being more crunchy, but they aren't a full line of cheesy gak. To claim otherwise is just slander.

Better watch out for the power lifter sentinel cheeze it'll get ya

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Yep. Charging for mandatory updates is just ridiculous.

Just like codex books do. It sucks, but it's consistent with GW's other sales models.

Codices get FAQ updates to work with recently released editions. FW books do not. That's the problem. They used to get updated in 6th, but FW has been hit with the lazy bat.

The FAQs for SM units ("updates" now apparently) are minor minor changes or rewording rules. FW charges for "mandatory updates" in the same way GW does.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Yep. Charging for mandatory updates is just ridiculous.

Just like codex books do. It sucks, but it's consistent with GW's other sales models.

Codices get FAQ updates to work with recently released editions. FW books do not. That's the problem. They used to get updated in 6th, but FW has been hit with the lazy bat.

While true, GW's 7E FAQ's are hardly worthy of the name, it's not like their updates have been exactly extensive or useful, and the core rulebook still doesn't have an FAQ. GW as a whole, not just FW, have been really bad with updates.

As I mentioned earlier, this thread and my last experience running a FW list makes it clear that if I don't want to be judged in some way at my FLGS (or anywhere for that matter) I really just shouldn't bring it. People will have the perception I am either A) cheating through some kind of update trickery B) using super OP units, regardless of how legal it is to actually run it. Thanks for the help though

That is, basically, it, and it's been that way for a really, really long time, no matter how many times it's demonstrated that the vast majority of FW units are in-line with (and sometimes underpowered in comparison to) core-GW units.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Yep. Charging for mandatory updates is just ridiculous.

Just like new codexes then?


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 Orock wrote:
Oh forgeworld makes balanced units you say, or even underpowered? Lets take a look across the boards and see how many of them are on there. Oh look, all of none.

This would be a lie. Or do you really want to argue that these are OP:





FW makes a lot of varied things with some things focused solely on fluff and others being more crunchy, but they aren't a full line of cheesy gak. To claim otherwise is just slander.

way to not read the statement. They EXIST, however nobody, including yourself, uses them. They only buy and use the OP crap, or use things like these to stand in for something else.

I only play an HH list because I like CC weapons on Tac squads. But again as Orock has pointed out, many people either A) run FW for OP stuff or more commonly B) are perceived to do so.

The only Forgeworld model I have seen used at all is the Wraithseer. People at my store don't mind playing against FW stuff, but they don't feel justified spending large quantities of cash on said product.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't really find the Wraithseer to be OP.

 Orock wrote:
way to not read the statement. They EXIST, however nobody, including yourself, uses them. They only buy and use the OP crap, or use things like these to stand in for something else.

And how is that any different than codex units? The same people that only use the few overpowered FW units are also only using the overpowered codex units. So ban codex rules!

Forgeworld is broken at a certain point. one guy at my gw runs minotaurs with literally all the FW flyers and almost all the big awesome tanks. PEople dont wanna play him now.


one person at the store runs raptors and uses issodon and a keylek executioner. it's good, but he can still lose easily.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Orock wrote:
way to not read the statement. They EXIST, however nobody, including yourself, uses them. They only buy and use the OP crap, or use things like these to stand in for something else.

And how is that any different than codex units? The same people that only use the few overpowered FW units are also only using the overpowered codex units. So ban codex rules!

Because there is already enough overpowered crap in the game, so why not trim it out, especially since you cant buy it through your LFGS to support them. Its all good for people who play in their friends basements, but that 200 FW unit could be spent at the place where you play instead, giving them some profit, rather than nothing. Also, on the tournament boards they agree for the most part, it simplifies the game and streamlines it, making pickup games and organizing tournaments that much easier.

Really if they had just stuck to making recasts and alternate models nobody would have anything to complain about.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Yep. Charging for mandatory updates is just ridiculous.

Just like codex books do. It sucks, but it's consistent with GW's other sales models.

Codices get FAQ updates to work with recently released editions. FW books do not. That's the problem. They used to get updated in 6th, but FW has been hit with the lazy bat.

FW still FAQs things (and answers rules questions via email, like regarding the By This Seal rule for Red Hunters, which they said to ignore). They're just not as fast at it because they don't have a lot of people to do these sort of things so the FAQs are slower.


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 Orock wrote:
way to not read the statement. They EXIST, however nobody, including yourself, uses them. They only buy and use the OP crap, or use things like these to stand in for something else.

So it's just like every other army then. I mean Repentia are useless, GKSS are bunk, a lot of Tyranids aren't that good, so they don't get used. To claim this is a FW exclusive problem is still bunk.


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 Orock wrote:
Really if they had just stuck to making recasts and alternate models nobody would have anything to complain about.

Except they've been making rules for years. IA1 (the original one) is older than most of their alternate models. Hell IA1 and IA2 had intros by Jervis Johnson saying that they were official additions to the game.

 Orock wrote:


Because there is already enough overpowered crap in the game, so why not trim it out

And who determines what is "overpowered crap"? There's a very small handful of FW units that can be considered anything like the powerful codex units, but there's lots of "good" stuff that isn't anything near OP but isn't bad either.

What exactly would you consider on the same level as the Wave Serpent, or 2++ rerollable shennanigans or the like?



And besides, all this stuff exists in the 40k universe, and not every FW unit is something they made up themselves out of nowhere by any means. Why shouldn't it all be portrayed?

especially since you cant buy it through your LFGS to support them. Its all good for people who play in their friends basements, but that 200 FW unit could be spent at the place where you play instead, giving them some profit, rather than nothing.

You can't buy Sisters of Battle off the shelf either, they have to special order them at a much lower profit margin (if any) and can't sell you a rulebook for them at all. Why would this line of thinking not apply to them as well?

What if you game at a club and not at a FLGS?

Also, on the tournament boards they agree for the most part, it simplifies the game and streamlines it, making pickup games and organizing tournaments that much easier.

Except most of them allow FW now...

Really if they had just stuck to making recasts and alternate models nobody would have anything to complain about.

They've been making they're own stuff or creating rules for units that didn't get main-line models (e.g. Hydra, Manticore from EPIC) since 2000 and 3rd edition, there isn't anything recent about them.

 Orock wrote:
Because there is already enough overpowered crap in the game, so why not trim it out

This isn't a very convincing argument unless you're also willing to "trim out" overpowered codex stuff, and only ban the specific overpowered FW units.

but that 200 FW unit could be spent at the place where you play instead, giving them some profit, rather than nothing.

A game store is a business, not a charity. If they can't compete with FW for my $200 then they don't get my money. I'm have no obligation to "support" them by making my purchase decisions based on what will help their profits.

Also, on the tournament boards they agree for the most part, it simplifies the game and streamlines it, making pickup games and organizing tournaments that much easier.

You know what would also simplify the game? Banning everything but C:SM.

Really if they had just stuck to making recasts and alternate models nobody would have anything to complain about.

Yeah, why have more diversity when you can have nothing but alternate tactical squad models...

If you buy forge world for the models thats one thing, but requiring people to play you using forgeworld rules is something else.

most people can get the normal game rules/codex from their FLGS, they cannot with FW. It is much easier to ID which books are current for the normal games system, for FW it is not unless you are already familiar with it.

Yes there are some very few units in FW which are not good, but most of them are superior to what you can purchase from the normal codexes.

RAW forge world is not legal, as they are not citadel models which are the only things you are allowed to select when building an army according to the rulebook. This also puts some people off from playing with or against it.

blaktoof wrote:
If you buy forge world for the models thats one thing, but requiring people to play you using forgeworld rules is something else.

You can argue the same thing for every codex, every rule and everything else. It's a given that to play the game you and your opponent(s) need to agree on the game. Any claim that anyone can or will force anything is just an accusation against their ethics.

blaktoof wrote:
If you buy forge world for the models thats one thing, but requiring people to play you using forgeworld rules is something else.

No it isn't. FW rules are part of the game just like codex rules, formations, etc. The idea that they're some separate thing that deserves special treatment is an idea invented by certain anti-FW players, not by GW.

most people can get the normal game rules/codex from their FLGS, they cannot with FW.

So? It's 2014, ordering stuff online is part of life. If you want FW rules all you have to do is go online and buy them.

It is much easier to ID which books are current for the normal games system, for FW it is not unless you are already familiar with it.

This would be a much more convincing argument if people were actually familiar with codex armies they don't play. In my experience I've had just as many questions and arguments about my codex IG units as my FW units. And really, if you're so paranoid about someone cheating with an old version of the rules then why are you playing with them?

Yes there are some very few units in FW which are not good, but most of them are superior to what you can purchase from the normal codexes.

This is not even close to true. Most FW units are average at best, and a lot of the "better than codex" ones are only better because the codex unit sucks (rough riders vs. death riders, for example).

RAW forge world is not legal, as they are not citadel models which are the only things you are allowed to select when building an army according to the rulebook.

This is RAW stupidity on the same level as the old "RAW you can't shoot or charge with models with helmets" nonsense. It might be true by the strictest interpretation of RAW, but nobody ever plays it that way. Everyone understands that "Citadel miniatures" really means "40k models, whatever parts they're composed of", and scratchbuilt models/third party conversion parts/etc are legal.

blaktoof wrote:
If you buy forge world for the models thats one thing, but requiring people to play you using forgeworld rules is something else.

most people can get the normal game rules/codex from their FLGS, they cannot with FW. It is much easier to ID which books are current for the normal games system, for FW it is not unless you are already familiar with it.

How's that different than a new codex, or a codex that simply isn't available in a store (e.g. Sisters of Battle?).

Yes there are some very few units in FW which are not good, but most of them are superior to what you can purchase from the normal codexes.

Whoever claims forgeworld only makes OP stuff obviously never read IA3 unit entries
Some of the tau units (kroot are the glaring point) were so godly bad throught every incarnation for years now that they stopped producing them as the sales were that low it was more expensive to store the molds then the sales earned.
I'm talking about things like a drone armed with TLBC for 40 points in a HS slot, or "assault" units with about the attack power of an assault marine, the defenses of rough riders and the price of terminators.
Out of all units within the current IA3 the ones that are semi-competetive are the tetra and barracuda alone (and they are a wash compared to codex units, making them more of a tune than an upgrade), with Ralai, Rmyr and Remora being fine for casual play, and everything else is actively hurting yourself to take them over codex unit of similar roles, sometimes even by as far margines as 50% less efficient than codex unit. nearly everything is overpriced and underpowered. and I'm sure this holds true to many other books too.
(not counting manta, who I honestly can't rate, or orca who got updated from then, and the updated cost is quite good)


As for whoever mentioned issodon, he is currently the most powerful SM IC in the game, no questions asked.
However, he was written in 6th, and what made him this powerful is a BRB change in 7th of the warlord trait, not his own rules (who are good, but not nearly as much)
His fixed warlord trait is the one that turned from "meh, not bad" to "omgwtfbbq this is broken as hell"-master of ambush-that most reasonable players houserule it to be like CSM's "master of deception" even if you got it by rolling on the strategic table because that rule is outright bonkers (3 units of infiltrating gravcenturion anyone?). with that houserule he becomes fair as its at least limited in what he can infiltrate, and he isn't assured 3 (averages on 2) can still work with gravcents though, they ARE infantry, but not assured to have 3 squads doing it.

For the record, I hate the 2+ rerollable, wave serpent spam, and all the other cheese in the game. I wish tournaments could all somehow get together and decide on a uniform banned and restricted list for everything 40k, the only place bans and restrictions matter. But since GW threw the floodgates open with unbound and all the other issues the last few editions, I really doubt many players will be interested in playing competativley anymore. If army comp somehow made a difference anymore, many problems would be solved. And of course in friendly or pickup games as long as you agree everything is ok.

Taudar was amongst the, if not *the*, top-tier competitive builds last edition, which predates Unbound. That did not seem to change who did and did not play in tournies.

 BoomWolf wrote:


As for whoever mentioned issodon, he is currently the most powerful SM IC in the game, no questions asked.
However, he was written in 6th, and what made him this powerful is a BRB change in 7th of the warlord trait, not his own rules (who are good, but not nearly as much)
His fixed warlord trait is the one that turned from "meh, not bad" to "omgwtfbbq this is broken as hell"-master of ambush-that most reasonable players houserule it to be like CSM's "master of deception" even if you got it by rolling on the strategic table because that rule is outright bonkers (3 units of infiltrating gravcenturion anyone?). with that houserule he becomes fair as its at least limited in what he can infiltrate, and he isn't assured 3 (averages on 2) can still work with gravcents though, they ARE infantry, but not assured to have 3 squads doing it.

it isn't three but he has used it pretty well with one. still, I agree it is almost too good.

 Peregrine wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
If you buy forge world for the models thats one thing, but requiring people to play you using forgeworld rules is something else.

No it isn't. FW rules are part of the game just like codex rules, formations, etc. The idea that they're some separate thing that deserves special treatment is an idea invented by certain anti-FW players, not by GW.

most people can get the normal game rules/codex from their FLGS, they cannot with FW.

So? It's 2014, ordering stuff online is part of life. If you want FW rules all you have to do is go online and buy them.

It is much easier to ID which books are current for the normal games system, for FW it is not unless you are already familiar with it.

This would be a much more convincing argument if people were actually familiar with codex armies they don't play. In my experience I've had just as many questions and arguments about my codex IG units as my FW units. And really, if you're so paranoid about someone cheating with an old version of the rules then why are you playing with them?

Yes there are some very few units in FW which are not good, but most of them are superior to what you can purchase from the normal codexes.

This is not even close to true. Most FW units are average at best, and a lot of the "better than codex" ones are only better because the codex unit sucks (rough riders vs. death riders, for example).

RAW forge world is not legal, as they are not citadel models which are the only things you are allowed to select when building an army according to the rulebook.

This is RAW stupidity on the same level as the old "RAW you can't shoot or charge with models with helmets" nonsense. It might be true by the strictest interpretation of RAW, but nobody ever plays it that way. Everyone understands that "Citadel miniatures" really means "40k models, whatever parts they're composed of", and scratchbuilt models/third party conversion parts/etc are legal.

Each player in a Warhammer 40,000 battle commands an army. An army is a collection of one or more units of Citadel miniatures, and can consist of any number of models.

it may be raw stupidity but it is RAW.

FW is not part of citadel miniatures and vice versa, until FW produces Citadel miniatures or they merge departments technically FW is not legal for normal 40k, and is permission only.

There's a lot of RAW stupidity, like invisibility, but hey that's the rules.

I love FW! The Tau Manta is amazing! Their Horus Heresy Figure collection is amazing as well.

blaktoof-where have you gotten the conclusion that forgeworld is not citadel miniatures? because they are.