Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Saving 40k in 500 words or less, with improved balance, less tedium, and greater player agency. Goals: to improve balance between shooting and assault, remove tedious rules, and improve the player’s ability to effectively design and execute a game plan. I would appreciate constructive comments and criticism for these house rules.

Pre-game:
- warlord traits, players may freely select their warlord trait if using their codex's unique warlord traits. Codices without unique traits may freely select from the BRB warlord tactical or personal traits (not command nor strategic traits!).
- psychic powers are chosen when building the army list. All current restrictions apply (i.e. ML1 can only learn one power + primaris). Warp charge 1 powers cost 0 points, Warp charge 2 powers cost 10 points each, Warp charge 3 powers cost 20 points each.
- fielding a bound army list grants +1VP to the controlling player.

Movement:
- all model movement is now performed in the movement phase, including run (+3") and charge moves (+3"+d6"). If the charge fails, treat it as a run move directly towards the target unit. If the charge is successful, move all models the appropriate distance, into b2b contact if possible. In the shooting phase, the charging unit may fire assault and pistol weapons as normal (combat doesn't start until the assault phase), when using template and blast weapons ignore friendly models from the same unit caught under the template. In the shooting phase a charged unit may only be targeted by the unit(s) that charged it.
- any move entering, exiting, or crossing difficult terrain subtracts 3” from the model’s base movement, including bikes, cavalry, and vehicles. This affects run and charge moves. Units with the move through cover, beasts, and skimmer rules ignore this modifier.
- models may charge after disembarking from a non-assault vehicle (unless the vehicle began the turn in reserves), suffering -3" to their charge range. This is cumulative with any other penalties, e.g. charging through cover.
- any rules improving or re-rolling run moves (e.g. fleet, crusader, Move Move Move command) allow the model to run +6” instead of +3” (this doesn't apply to charges).

Psychic:
- remove the perils chart, perils of the warp inflicts 1 wound with no saves of any kind allowed (including invulnerable saves and feel no pain). The psyker's unit also suffers one S4 Ap2 hit for every "6" that was rolled on the psychic test.

Shooting:
- eliminate the look out sir rule.
- simplified vehicle damage table, 1-2 Shaken, 3-4 Stunned, 5-6 Immobilized, 7+ Explodes.
- +1 BS at targets within 12", -1 BS at targets beyond 36" (minimum BS 1 when shooting)
- all cover is treated the same, shots at models in cover or with cover modifiers (camo, stealth, jink, etc.) are fired at -1 BS (no more cover saves). Shots at models with both cover and a cover modifier are at -2 BS. Modifiers cannot reduce BS below 1. “Snap shots” always miss targets in cover. "Ignore cover" confers +1 BS when shooting at targets with cover. A unit is considered in cover if at least 50% of its models are out of sight or obscured from the closest shooting model with LOS.
- combat speed now counts as stationary for the purpose of firing. Cruising speed counts as combat speed for firing.
- remove all incidents of "randomly select a model" for wounds, instead the controlling player may choose who takes wounds in these instances.

Assault:
- (see above: Movement).
- in overwatch, template weapons and grenades (1 grenade per unit) inflict d3 automatic hits. Tau supporting fire is unaffected, the charged unit may not fire. Nothing else may fire overwatch.
- eliminate pile in moves. Everyone in a combat within 6" of an enemy model fights (close combat, short range fire, etc). In the movement phase, models in engaged units must move into base to base contact with an enemy model or as close as possible (moving 6").
- fix the WS chart. If the opposing WS is 2+ higher than your own, you hit on a 5+.
- eliminate the initiative+d6 roll when fleeing combat. If the unit flees and the enemy chooses a sweeping advance, then the fleeing unit is completely eliminated. A unit may not consolidate after a sweeping advance. If the winning side chooses to consolidate instead, consolidation moves are always up to 3".

Morale:
- when suffering 25% casualties from shooting, units take a pinning test instead of a morale test. Weapons with the "Pinning" special rule force the pinning test at -1 ld.
- if a unit is falling back and fails its test to regroup, the unit is instantly removed as a casualty, it is assumed that they were completely routed or cut down in a hail of fire.

Look out sir really shouldn't go away as all it does is give units a chance to protect their characters (versus characters taking wounds last like a few editions ago for example or the player choosing where the wounds go like in 5th). Instead I'd say that if a model with a special or heavy weapon is killed that on a 5+ a differently equipped model (likely someone who isn't upgrade, or at most has the same basic equipment as everyone (so if they have Chaos Marks or +CCW that's fine as) else but no special melee or ranged weapons) in the unit can be removed as a casualty instead (basically the model traded his wargear for his fallen comrade's).

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Look out sir really shouldn't go away as all it does is give units a chance to protect their characters (versus characters taking wounds last like a few editions ago for example or the player choosing where the wounds go like in 5th). Instead I'd say that if a model with a special or heavy weapon is killed that on a 5+ a differently equipped model (likely someone who isn't upgrade, or at most has the same basic equipment as everyone (so if they have Chaos Marks or +CCW that's fine as) else but no special melee or ranged weapons) in the unit can be removed as a casualty instead (basically the model traded his wargear for his fallen comrade's).

My problem with Look Out Sir, is that it is a horrendous waste of game time. Every game I run into multiple situations where my opponent is trying to protect his Sgt, but this turns even normal shooting into a dice-rolling fest which drags the game on and on. I also really hate the strategy of alternating Look Out Sir and tanking wounds on an IC with a 2++ save to protect the squad while passing off Ap2 wounds. Either the character takes hits like normal troopers or characters can't take wounds until everyone else is dead, I imagine people will prefer the second option. I'll update an alternate solution, wounds can only be allocated to characters once all targetable non-character have been removed as casualties.

That would completely remove the ability for characters to tank for units. Which I like in concept.

I would be in favor of removing Look Out Sir completely. If you want to tank for the squad go for it, but don't expect to cherry pick which hits go where.

Also if you're going to have a game where only a couple guys in the unit are actually worth keeping alive, just go to the Melta Gun/Lascannon guy die last system.

 Eldarain wrote:
That would completely remove the ability for characters to tank for units. Which I like in concept.

I would be in favor of removing Look Out Sir completely. If you want to tank for the squad go for it, but don't expect to cherry pick which hits go where.

Also if you're going to have a game where only a couple guys in the unit are actually worth keeping alive, just go to the Melta Gun/Lascannon guy die last system.

This is more of what I was thinking originally. Players can tank if they want, putting the character in the front, but you can't then pick and choose for the plasma blasts to somehow hit anyone else.

My go ..

Throw away the WHFB based rules.
Use Epic Armageddon based rules, add more detail using 474 remaining words to bring the scale in line with larger minatures.

There is so much wrong with WHFB in space v3.4, that 500 word would just scratch the surface.
it would be much easier to convert another rule set with 500 words IMO.

Please advocates of saving '40k 7th' ed rules .Can you explain what is exactly worth saving?
As I really can not see anything from a game mechanic or resolution method perspective in 40k ,that can not be simply replaced with objectively better alternatives.

All units should be able to attempt to break from melee combat at any time by the commander's (my) orders. give them a chance to take D3 wounds with saves or something.

Lanrak wrote:
My go ..

Throw away the WHFB based rules.
Use Epic Armageddon based rules, add more detail using 474 remaining words to bring the scale in line with larger minatures.

There is so much wrong with WHFB in space v3.4, that 500 word would just scratch the surface.
it would be much easier to convert another rule set with 500 words IMO.

Please advocates of saving '40k 7th' ed rules .Can you explain what is exactly worth saving?
As I really can not see anything from a game mechanic or resolution method perspective in 40k ,that can not be simply replaced with objectively better alternatives.

Mostly because it's simpler and easier to fix the current system into a fun edition rather than changing everything.

That said, I've heard good things about Epic and it seems more suited for the style of game that people are looking for in the 1500+ point range. The current 7th ed ruleset seems more built for games in the 750-1500 point range, with the focus on characters, plethora of special rules, complex interactions, charts, etc. I find 1000 point games way faster and fun than larger battles. The problem is that the game clearly isn't balanced for that size, it's almost impossible to build a decent TAC list under 1500 points, so a bad match up will wreck house at that scale.

So my solution is primarily to speed up gameplay and let players decide how to field their armies (warlord traits, psychic powers, etc). The challenge should be provided by your opponent, not by a series of unfortunate difficult terrain rolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pyeatt wrote:
All units should be able to attempt to break from melee combat at any time by the commander's (my) orders. give them a chance to take D3 wounds with saves or something.

I think this would hurt assault armies too much. Being able to disengage to open them up for shooting would be too powerful.

I was looking over the pancake edition from a couple of years ago to see what looked good on that, and I have also been looking at different ideas from other posters.

One aspect I think really adds a more dynamic edge, that doesn't necesarily have to change everything about the game, is switching players on a phase-by-phase basis. This means no more sitting around for half an hour watching the other guy move models and roll dice. While doing this, a few other tweaks would just neaten up the rules and make things more intuitive.

Movement is always in the movement phase as many have suggested before. The types of movement that can be performed:

1. move as normal.

2. Run: movement+d6. No weapons may be fired in the shooting phase.

3. Charge: Movement+d6 towards an enemy unit. Assault Weapons and Pistols may be fired at the charged target. Even once a Unit has made a successful charge, Units do not count as engaged until the I10 step of the Assault Phase

This means Overwatch can be streamlined into a bonus Shooting attack, directed from the target of a charge towards the charger. Shooting is still stronger when the guys are running right at you, but doesn't include a whole extra set of rules. This would also work for rules like Support Fire, where all units are able to gain the Overwatch bonus when targetting the charging unit.

What I'm trying to do with these modifications is simultaneously streamlline and make it feel as if things are happening at once, where a unit can be shot as it is charged, units move around the board in direct response to enemy units movement, a charge is basically a run, why should they be any different? etc etc.

I agree with dropping LOS altogether.

I would drop half of the USRs.

Cover needs to be stripped down to a simple mechanism.

I would lose warlord traits altogether.

No more crappy Psychic Phase (in fact I would rather just work straight from 6th ed.)!!

Altayre wrote:


One aspect I think really adds a more dynamic edge, that doesn't necesarily have to change everything about the game, is switching players on a phase-by-phase basis. This means no more sitting around for half an hour watching the other guy move models and roll dice. While doing this, a few other tweaks would just neaten up the rules and make things more intuitive.

Movement is always in the movement phase as many have suggested before. The types of movement that can be performed:

1. move as normal.

2. Run: movement+d6. No weapons may be fired in the shooting phase.

3. Charge: Movement+d6 towards an enemy unit. Assault Weapons and Pistols may be fired at the charged target. Even once a Unit has made a successful charge, Units do not count as engaged until the I10 step of the Assault Phase

This means Overwatch can be streamlined into a bonus Shooting attack, directed from the target of a charge towards the charger. Shooting is still stronger when the guys are running right at you, but doesn't include a whole extra set of rules. This would also work for rules like Support Fire, where all units are able to gain the Overwatch bonus when targetting the charging unit.

What I'm trying to do with these modifications is simultaneously streamlline and make it feel as if things are happening at once, where a unit can be shot as it is charged, units move around the board in direct response to enemy units movement, a charge is basically a run, why should they be any different? etc etc.

I agree with dropping LOS altogether.

I would drop half of the USRs.

Cover needs to be stripped down to a simple mechanism.

I would lose warlord traits altogether.

No more crappy Psychic Phase (in fact I would rather just work straight from 6th ed.)!!

Now we're getting somewhere! I incorporated some of your suggestions in the top post.

Charge would probably have to be move+2d6", not sure if that's what you meant. But doing all movement at once would help a great deal, it's so annoying when you have to move the same model three or four times in one turn (move, charge, pile in, consolidate). It's better if the shooting and assault phases are just rolling and removing models, not moving models again. In this case, difficult terrain should be -3" to any of the three movement options. I like this alternating phase system better than the unit-by-unit activation that some folks have suggested, and by moving all at once there isn't the option to deliberately move away from a charging unit.

Some USRs that need to go:
- blind or concussive (pick one, also if you're striking first, what's the point of making your enemy I1?)
- rampage (just give the unit +1A, I hate conditional rules that require counting every turn)
- hatred (just use preferred enemy!)
- jink (replace with hard to hit or cover = -1 to hit in shooting as described above)
- any rules about buildings: sentry defences, repel the enemy, etc...
- shred (just +1S to whatever weapons this is currently applied to)
- shrouded & stealth (just say +1 to cover)
- skilled rider (nothing takes you out of the narrative like 10 biker marines driving through a raging river, a bunker, and a forest to charge your infantry with no penalty)
- soul blaze (PITB looking up the rules for something so mediocre)
- zealot (it's literally hatred + fearless)

Personally I kinda like warlord traits, if you can pick them. I'd take the IG outflank with d3 units every time, because it's a great feel for the army, but it's impossible to build a game plan around something that you'll only get 30% of the time (with re-rolls). And nothing stinks like getting a useless warlord trait that you're not equipped for, "Hooray my Lord Commissar has relentless!"

The assault based armies would say marines firing overwatch at full BS with their pistols would hurt. One of my armies is marines and I can see where we shoot a LOT


Automatically Appended Next Post:
but hey I will say that I see where you are going at with that. It's a close ranged weapon. You can arguably say that they would've been trained for close combat (CQB, combat tuck, transitioning, improvised shooting positions).

 Josey4u wrote:
The assault based armies would say marines firing overwatch at full BS with their pistols would hurt. One of my armies is marines and I can see where we shoot a LOT


Automatically Appended Next Post:
but hey I will say that I see where you are going at with that. It's a close ranged weapon. You can arguably say that they would've been trained for close combat (CQB, combat tuck, transitioning, improvised shooting positions).

Yea, the fact that all marines have bolt pistols really complicates that change, but like you say that's a far more believable aspect of Marine training than some of the other benefits they get ::cough:: Chapter Tactics . On the other hand, it means heavy weapons and assault weapons can't overwatch. It's silly buying a plasma pistol for 15 points when all it will do 90% of the time is give you +1 attack, I wanted it to be a meaningful trade-off between pistol and rifle. And I liked the idea of balancing the loss in overwatch shooting by picking a handful of specialist defensive weapons like pistols, grenades, and flamers. This way it removes most overwatch, speeding up the process, but also gives you more options for configuring a defensive squad for holding objectives. I imagined sergeants picking off troopers coming over the trench line, troopers dropping grenades down the stairwell, a gout of flame torching the next room over, etc. These are general changes I'd like, of course they would necessitate points changes in the long run.

I'm not so sure how I feel about Full BS overwatch. As it is, rolling 6's is not that complicated. But, for most armies, shooting at full BS is a bit nuts. A full round of extra, no penalty shooting is not good even with fixed charges. You still run into the SAME issue of charges NOT being far enough. And even if you say 'they still make it if they started close enough', it's still a slap in the face because you just took out MORE Orks than before.

Overwatch as it is, I feel is fine. It simulates them in a panic, and not aiming proper, just spraying and praying.

I do like fixed charges. The only issue is, again, armies are not designed around these home brewed rules, so things still fall flat in the long haul. My Orks want to get in, and chop things up. While having the flat 3 inch run is nice, I'd rather take my chances with the D6 at that point. I'll also say that failed charges still moving is hugely useful and I'll take that any day.

Melevolence wrote:
I'm not so sure how I feel about Full BS overwatch. As it is, rolling 6's is not that complicated. But, for most armies, shooting at full BS is a bit nuts. A full round of extra, no penalty shooting is not good even with fixed charges. You still run into the SAME issue of charges NOT being far enough. And even if you say 'they still make it if they started close enough', it's still a slap in the face because you just took out MORE Orks than before.

Overwatch as it is, I feel is fine. It simulates them in a panic, and not aiming proper, just spraying and praying.

I do like fixed charges. The only issue is, again, armies are not designed around these home brewed rules, so things still fall flat in the long haul. My Orks want to get in, and chop things up. While having the flat 3 inch run is nice, I'd rather take my chances with the D6 at that point. I'll also say that failed charges still moving is hugely useful and I'll take that any day.

My problem with overwatch is that it requires a whole bunch of rolling with very little effect. As an example, when someone charges my 50 man conscript squad, I have to collect and roll 100 dice for lasgun snap shots. Against space marines that's a 2% chance of killing one, against tougher creatures the odds are even worse. Generally, overwatch is one of those situations where there's a lot of time spent counting models, checking rapid fire ranges, gathering dice, and rolling them all for very little effect. I'd rather limit overwatch to a select few weapons that are likely to actually cause damage. This change would dramatically weaken overwatch by the vast majority of units. Full BS only applies to pistols. It would strengthen overwatch by most pistol-armed assault units, who are likely to end up in a situation where they could be charged, and dramatically weaken overwatch by less well prepared troops.

When your orks charge an ill-prepared guard gun line they'd only take 1 laspistol shot, d3 frag grenade hits, and maybe d3 flamer hits. So instead of 15 BS1 lasgun shots there's just 1 BS3 laspistol and d3 S3 frag hits, both cases have the wall of death hits. The advantage is that my solution only requires 3 dice, not 16 to resolve.

1. Switch to d10s and design your mechanics around it.
2. Have a public Beta Test for all new Editions and Codices.
3. Hire a technical editor.
4. Hire a copy editor.

Here's some random brainstorming for the game, some of these might have been said already but here I go:

Overwatch:
1) No checking for range; most of the time only a few models in a squad will be farther than ~12 inches away when charged. Even with 6'' range, why not shoot your enemy as he gets closer?
2) I really like the idea of pistols being more effective at point blank range over rifles. How about, pistols get +1 bs for overwatch, so bs2?

General:
1) Some people might say, let you roll 60 dice as 12, then multiply by 5. 5 is a fast number to count up with, and it's not as chaotic as rolling in sets of 10+ dice. <<Speeds up the game for some armies.
2) If you aren't playing for keeps, let a friend or your opponent finish moving the last 60% or so of a squad you have moved up or around. ><<If you play "traditional" Orks... please consider.

Psychic Powers:
1) If you want to increase the cost of higher level powers, 20 charge for a level 3 is pretty ridiculous Imo. How about 1 for WC1. 3 for WC 2. And, 5 for WC 3. Then reduce perils' negative effects maybe?
Example for perils defense: A power cannot kill it's caster unless he has cast a spell with a WC above his ML or rolled a 1 on the perils chart.

I really dislike the idea of overwatch being pistols only, and at full BS. Like others have said, that would make marine armies suddenly much more effective at overwatch than just about every other codex, as there are several armies that don't have a single pistol in the book. If you don't want to roll dice for little effect, then something along the lines of trading the ability to fight in combat for a full BS overwatch might work better. That way you're forced to choose whether or not you want to shoot or fight that phase, which seems a bit more realistic anyway.

Deadawake1347 wrote:
I really dislike the idea of overwatch being pistols only, and at full BS. Like others have said, that would make marine armies suddenly much more effective at overwatch than just about every other codex, as there are several armies that don't have a single pistol in the book. If you don't want to roll dice for little effect, then something along the lines of trading the ability to fight in combat for a full BS overwatch might work better. That way you're forced to choose whether or not you want to shoot or fight that phase, which seems a bit more realistic anyway.

Tyranids are the only ones that I can think of that don't have pistols.

I would literally never choose to fight, full BS overwatch on everything is insanely better than fighting in the first round of combat. For a guardsman squad, that's 19 lasgun shots at effectively I10 rather than 12 S3 combat hits at I3. Trading first round of combat for full BS overwatch would make assault armies obsolete. What marine player would opt for 1 S4 Ap- hit in combat when they could fire 2 S4 Ap5 shots instead with each marine?

 TheSilo wrote:

Deadawake1347 wrote:
I really dislike the idea of overwatch being pistols only, and at full BS. Like others have said, that would make marine armies suddenly much more effective at overwatch than just about every other codex, as there are several armies that don't have a single pistol in the book. If you don't want to roll dice for little effect, then something along the lines of trading the ability to fight in combat for a full BS overwatch might work better. That way you're forced to choose whether or not you want to shoot or fight that phase, which seems a bit more realistic anyway.

Tyranids are the only ones that I can think of that don't have pistols.

I would literally never choose to fight, full BS overwatch on everything is insanely better than fighting in the first round of combat. For a guardsman squad, that's 19 lasgun shots at effectively I10 rather than 12 S3 combat hits at I3. Trading first round of combat for full BS overwatch would make assault armies obsolete. What marine player would opt for 1 S4 Ap- hit in combat when they could fire 2 S4 Ap5 shots instead with each marine?

GKs have no pistols at all, Tau have all of one model in the entire codex that has a pistol, and those are only the ones I know of offhand. But making it so that only one class of weapon can overwatch, a weapon that some factions have in abundance, and others completely lack, is rather unfair. I threw my idea out as a counter idea, not as something that I necessarily think should be put into practice.

Besides which, pistols already benefit you in close combat by giving you an extra attack, so you think they should benefit you twice, once by giving you an extra shot before combat, and again by giving you an extra attack once combat begins.

Deadawake1347 wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

Deadawake1347 wrote:
I really dislike the idea of overwatch being pistols only, and at full BS. Like others have said, that would make marine armies suddenly much more effective at overwatch than just about every other codex, as there are several armies that don't have a single pistol in the book. If you don't want to roll dice for little effect, then something along the lines of trading the ability to fight in combat for a full BS overwatch might work better. That way you're forced to choose whether or not you want to shoot or fight that phase, which seems a bit more realistic anyway.

Tyranids are the only ones that I can think of that don't have pistols.

I would literally never choose to fight, full BS overwatch on everything is insanely better than fighting in the first round of combat. For a guardsman squad, that's 19 lasgun shots at effectively I10 rather than 12 S3 combat hits at I3. Trading first round of combat for full BS overwatch would make assault armies obsolete. What marine player would opt for 1 S4 Ap- hit in combat when they could fire 2 S4 Ap5 shots instead with each marine?

GKs have no pistols at all, Tau have all of one model in the entire codex that has a pistol, and those are only the ones I know of offhand. But making it so that only one class of weapon can overwatch, a weapon that some factions have in abundance, and others completely lack, is rather unfair. I threw my idea out as a counter idea, not as something that I necessarily think should be put into practice.

Besides which, pistols already benefit you in close combat by giving you an extra attack, so you think they should benefit you twice, once by giving you an extra shot before combat, and again by giving you an extra attack once combat begins.

The general idea was to nerf overwatch for most units, and only enhance it for specially equipped units. Tau would still have supporting fire, which would be mostly unchanged. They also have photon grenades, which could now blind assaulting units in addition to removing the +1A for charging. GK have psyk-out grenades. 'Nids I believe have flesh hooks, which would count as grenades. If the change means that GK and Tau have less effective overwatch, I'm alright with that. The primary purpose of that change was to buff assault-based armies, open up some defensive options for units, and reduce game time devoted to relatively ineffective overwatch.

The problems that can be most easily fixed in 40k without tearing down the core rules and rebuilding them from scratch are mostly in the Codexes. The continual escalation of more and better cheap low-AP high-Strength blasts/high rate-of-fire guns and the continual nerfing to assault units stuck with grandfathered-in 4e prices on their equipment and reduced durability in the face of the arms race is the problem, the rules alone aren't an issue.

It would be nice if GW would realize that the Forge World team is better at designing rules than their schizoid band of army-fanboys that don't talk to each other and put them in charge of the whole game, though.

@The Silo.
I have found it is much easier to convert a good rule set to use with the 40k scale /setting to get a fun game.
Than try to fix the holistic mess that GW sell.

I agree the intended game play of 40k should be fast and fun .But the rules it is saddled with prevent this from happening on every level .

You can write 500 word of changes you think will improve the game .But it just pushes the problems into another area you did not expect.

A team of professional game developers failed to improve 40k for the last 16 years by adding to it.They just made the rules more complicated and confusing.

It is much easier to start with a comparatively well defined intuitive rule set, and add a bit of 40k flavor.(Epic Armageddon or NET Epic version, Fast and Dirty, Stargrunt II,Bolt Action, Tomorrow War etc.)

Than fix the mess that is 40k 7th ed.

 TheSilo wrote:
Mostly because it's simpler and easier to fix the current system into a fun edition rather than changing everything.

Actually it's the exact opposite. Fixing superficial issues doesn't change the fact that the foundation is broken, it just makes a game that is broken in different ways. You still have the same bloated mess of rules, the same poorly-designed mechanics, etc. To properly fix the game you need to delete everything and start over with a foundation of core rules that are designed for a modern-era scifi game instead of a 1980s fantasy game.

I must have expressed myself badly, my full BS Overwatch pistols only thing got misinterpreted and has grown out of control!!

I will use an example of how I meant it, but first I was thinking about adding a tactical layer to the charge reactions with Overwatch or Brace (I believe WHFB already does something similar)

Overwatch: The unit shoots as it's attackers advance, hoping to cut them down before contact. When contact is made however, the defenders are still busy fumbling with their ranged weapons and not prepared for attack! During assault, a model that has Overwatched counts its I and WS value as 1
Brace: The unit draws swords, activates power weapons, or generally prepares for an attack. The Unit forgoes its shooting but the Assaulting Unit receives no bonus for Charging.

Ok, so I go first playing DE against my opponent SM Stan

Movement: I decide that my Incubi will charge a Unit of 5 basic SM guys. I roll 2d6 getting 6 in total, so may charge 12". This gets me in, so my charge is successful. My Incubi move up to within 1" of the SM Unit, but do not count as engaged yet. In Stan's movement, this unit may move, however the Incubi will always count as Engaging them in the Assault phase. They stay still.

Shooting: If my Incubi have Pistols or Assault Weapons, they are allowed to use them. They do not have anything, so never mind that, over to Stan's turn. Stan now has a decision to make. He may only shoot at the Charging Unit but gain the Overwatch +1 bonus, or Brace. He decides on Overwatch, hitting on 2's instead of 3's. After his Shooting Phase, 2 of my Incubi are dead.

Assault: My Incubi now count as engaged, and Stan's Unit are fighting at I and WS 1. Had he Braced, I would be charging with more guys, but with no bonus attacks or anything, so it's a tactical decision.

The idea behind it is that you are now streamlining rules, no moving during any of the three phases, no shooting during Shooting or Assault phase.
Also, while charges can be more harsh, the shooting army can also react to them as they happen. Being charged by that horrific combat deathstar? You can choose whether your whole army shoots it before it engages, hopefully ending the assault before it can happen, at the risk of ignoring every other unit.

I get what you're saying. I'm just concerned that overwatch would become even better and favor shooty armies even more. My thought process is: if you want a charge reaction, do it in your own turn. The defending squad had the opportunity to take action in their own turn, before they got charged, and could've fired everything (except flamers, pistols, and grenades which were probably out of range). And I always imagined that happening simultaneously with them getting charged. If the unit is fast enough or sneaky enough to charge a defenseless unit without taking a round of fire, then good on them and good on the tactical player. I'd like a system that does a better job to reward well timed and executed strikes, rather than giving defenders an out (and I play IG).

Lanrak wrote:
My go ..

Throw away the WHFB based rules.
Use Epic Armageddon based rules, add more detail using 474 remaining words to bring the scale in line with larger minatures.

There is so much wrong with WHFB in space v3.4, that 500 word would just scratch the surface.
it would be much easier to convert another rule set with 500 words IMO.

Please advocates of saving '40k 7th' ed rules .Can you explain what is exactly worth saving?
As I really can not see anything from a game mechanic or resolution method perspective in 40k ,that can not be simply replaced with objectively better alternatives.

Or to short-hand: Bolt Action.
Which is an extremely good ruleset, actually. The only downside is that as it's currently written there's not a lot of 'room' in the mechanics - since the 'scope' of infantry it caters for runs from conscripts to commandoes rather than from grots to terminators.

re the OP

I do like a lot of these things -we are playing with the 40k rules at the moment in our group and I will share them to see their views.

Specifics: Unless otherwise stated I think your ideas are very good

Movement: - Are you looking at charges being always 6" - I am against that and much prefer the current random system - I could live with 6+D6" but having the stale fixed charge distance is a step backwards so to speak) for me.

Are you adding that Assault or Pistol weapons can now fire after Running?

Psychic - agree re the Perils but would prefer to go back to 6th ed and remove the OP powers.

Look out sir - I always forget it so happy to see it gone

Assault
I don't see why pistols are more effective than Assault weapons in Overwatch? Logically future SMGs etc are by far the better weapon here?
The buff to high WS is not enough considering what high BS gets - if you are double their WS you should hit on 2's and be hit on 5's, if triple - re-rolls and 6's
I like the compare In roll - its atmospheric - this also makes Marines even better with ATSKNF

also on other posts:

I like 40k - I just don't like some elements of the current system and specific units.

 Mr Morden wrote:
re the OP

I do like a lot of these things -we are playing with the 40k rules at the moment in our group and I will share them to see their views.

Specifics: Unless otherwise stated I think your ideas are very good

Movement: - Are you looking at charges being always 6" - I am against that and much prefer the current random system - I could live with 6+D6" but having the stale fixed charge distance is a step backwards so to speak) for me.

Are you adding that Assault or Pistol weapons can now fire after Running?

Psychic - agree re the Perils but would prefer to go back to 6th ed and remove the OP powers.

Look out sir - I always forget it so happy to see it gone

Assault
I don't see why pistols are more effective than Assault weapons in Overwatch? Logically future SMGs etc are by far the better weapon here?
The buff to high WS is not enough considering what high BS gets - if you are double their WS you should hit on 2's and be hit on 5's, if triple - re-rolls and 6's
I like the compare In roll - its atmospheric - this also makes Marines even better with ATSKNF

also on other posts:

I like 40k - I just don't like some elements of the current system and specific units.

I changed assault to 3"+d6" so it's a run with an extra d6.

I left assault weapons out of overwatch primarily because I was worried about melta guns, shuriken catapults, splinter cannons, etc. breaking overwatch. The idea is that assault weapons do their damage in the shooting phase since in real terms both sides are moving, shooting, and assaulting at the same time. Though really it's a gameplay fix, not a narrative/realism change. Right now, pistols are mostly an awkward way to grant +1 attack to character models. I'd like for them to have a more defined and functional role.

I did add pistols and assault weapons to fire after running, mostly so that failed charges aren't a complete disaster, forcing you to forgo shooting. I think there's a good argument for why models could run and still use a pistol or shotgun effectively. This adds a lot of mobility to units like termagaunts, slugga boyz, and other assault units. I'm not married to the idea, but think it might encourage aggressive play. And from a narrative/consistency standpoint, it's weird that units right now can move 6"> fire> charge 12" but they can't move 6"> run 6"> fire. I recognize that the proposed changes to fleet and shooting after running make Eldar infantry even better, I'm open to suggestions.

I agree on the WS chart, making it the same as the wound chart, but that change might require getting rid of the initiative system. That makes more sense actually, everyone strikes simultaneously, but the better fighters are harder to hit. I'll put that change in.

I'm going to agree with TheSilo on overwatch. While Space Marines do benefit from pistols firing at full BS, 10 bolt pistol shots is still MUCH less effective than, say, 30 pulse rifles or 100 lasgun shots even if they are at BS1. In other armies, it does give the player a choice between taking pistols and/or grenades, rather than a straight freebie to shooting armies

A suggestion:
Characters:
Line of sight (and anything similar, such as when determining which facing of a vehicle you're shooting at or cover) is determined by the character of a unit. In a unit with more than one character, the controlling player may choose which one to use. If the unit has no character, the player must pick a singular model to act as the character for the rest of the game.

This would streamline some of the more annoying parts of shooting, I think

The problem with the line of sight setup is that a unit facing in the same direction is a very medieval idea of warfare; modern soldiers are supposed to be able to move independently and engage separate targets as needed. If we're really attached to this idea of restricted line of sight 40k couldn't function on the scale it likes to try to now, it'd have to be reimagined as a skirmish game.

That or we go hack on Necromunda and see what comes out.