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 Ashiraya wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Assassin temples, at least in all the kung-fu movies I've ever seen, are pretty big, open spaces. That's a lot of ground for the Eversors to cover while under sustained bolter fire from a Marine Strike Team.

"Realistically" speaking, a couple of guys with Heavy Bolters, two guys with Stormbolters and a couple guys with flamers could cut the Eversors down like wheat before a scythe... weapons of that type with overlapping fields of fire and dedicated kill-zones would be brutally punishing to advance into.

... that only 1 Marine survives speaks volumes about the Eversor.

To be fair, a striketeam can be anything between 5 or 500 Marines for all we know.

We just lack the data to make an assessment here.

Which is why I kept it to six guys. Never underestimate the lethal potential of a trained military force with superior firepower and clear lines of fire. If there were multiples of those 6 guys, it becomes an even more-deadly killing ground.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You have to remember that Assassins are Assassins. They're not soldiers.

They aren't meant to fight in a pitched battle. They're meant for infiltration and stealth. Both of which were completely negated in the assault on the Eversor temple.

The fact they were able to wipe out all but one marine is extremely impressive.

This, assassins aren't meant to fight a battle, this isn't their job. We have this pop culture image of 'ninja' being able to waltz through everything because they're ninja. The truth being much of what they do revolves around surprise, fear, poison, misdirection, etc.

When you are sitting around, drinking tea and a bomb goes off, fills the room with smoke, and then poison blow darts hit a number of you the assassin can run in and go for the target. It's still a risk, because if the assassin doesn't kill enough men, cannot create enough confusion, or the defenders react appropriately it's over.

The Tick had a great riff on this about ninja's breathing underwater, installing telephones, etc (effectively saying a lot of what we think about assassins is myth, and deliberate myth at that).

Being able to hold their own in a straight up battle is massively impressive and not 'because marines'.

 Melissia wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Who was in turn an Alpha Legionairre.

Who was in turn a bad guy from scooby doo.

.... sorry, last OT post from me.

Who was, in turn, an Ork Kommando wearing a sign that said "spess muhreen" on it as a mask.

Who was just a spy wearing an ork mask.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Who was in turn an Alpha Legionairre.

Who was in turn a bad guy from scooby doo.

.... sorry, last OT post from me.

Who was, in turn, an Ork Kommando wearing a sign that said "spess muhreen" on it as a mask.

Who was just a spy wearing an ork mask.

Who was also a Squat inquisitor.
Would you expect a Squat to be part of the inquisition? Exactly.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Assassin temples, at least in all the kung-fu movies I've ever seen, are pretty big, open spaces. That's a lot of ground for the Eversors to cover while under sustained bolter fire from a Marine Strike Team.

"Realistically" speaking, a couple of guys with Heavy Bolters, two guys with Stormbolters and a couple guys with flamers could cut the Eversors down like wheat before a scythe... weapons of that type with overlapping fields of fire and dedicated kill-zones would be brutally punishing to advance into.

... that only 1 Marine survives speaks volumes about the Eversor.

To be fair, a striketeam can be anything between 5 or 500 Marines for all we know.

We just lack the data to make an assessment here.

Which is why I kept it to six guys. Never underestimate the lethal potential of a trained military force with superior firepower and clear lines of fire. If there were multiples of those 6 guys, it becomes an even more-deadly killing ground.

I seriously doubt 6 marines would be able to much of anything to a couple Eversor. Eldar are described as being lightning quick and difficult for even Marines to track. Assassins are augmented to a degree where they are even faster than that. Deathcultists are junior assassins and are still agile enough to dodge bullets with decent success.

In an open killing field there are only so many places you can dodge to especially when the air is full of bolt shells and fire.

 PhillyT wrote:
Eldar are described as being lightning quick and difficult for even Marines to track.

Correct assertion.

 PhillyT wrote:
Assassins are augmented to a degree where they are even faster than that

Give me a source for this that is not game mechanics.

I dare you.

Why didn't they just smash the temple from a strike cruiser?

Set a few devastator squads around the place with sniper scout reinforcements, and then just let the cruiser's guns do the work.

Some Chapters are smarter than others, I guess.

Probably shielded. It is on Terra, after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
In an open killing field there are only so many places you can dodge to especially when the air is full of bolt shells and fire.

Exactly this. The situation I described does not permit more than a few cubic inches of space between flying bullets and sheets of burning promethium, any single one of which will End an Eversor assassin (as even getting clipped by a bolt-round will cause it to explode, tearing most of/all of a limb away, or ventilating your torso or skull).... and anyone on fire really quickly tries not to be.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Why didn't they just smash the temple from a strike cruiser?

Set a few devastator squads around the place with sniper scout reinforcements, and then just let the cruiser's guns do the work.

Some Chapters are smarter than others, I guess.

Desperate suicide attacks with a 90-99% casualty rate, is a favorite tactic of the Astartes.

 Psienesis wrote:
Probably shielded. It is on Terra, after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
In an open killing field there are only so many places you can dodge to especially when the air is full of bolt shells and fire.

Exactly this. The situation I described does not permit more than a few cubic inches of space between flying bullets and sheets of burning promethium, any single one of which will End an Eversor assassin (as even getting clipped by a bolt-round will cause it to explode, tearing most of/all of a limb away, or ventilating your torso or skull).... and anyone on fire really quickly tries not to be.

Why would the eversor come out to the marines? It was the marines who were looking to kill the grandmaster.

Eversor had the advantage and the training. I am not in the bag for the eversor, but the sea that a handful of marines just hunts a peeks one hundred eversor whose training and abilities far exceeds there's seems unlikely.

Why would the eversor come out to the marines? It was the marines who were looking to kill the grandmaster.

They didn't. The Marines came in to them. As I mentioned previously, Assassin Temples are generally big, open spaces (seriously, have you never seen a kung-fu movie?).

Since the Eversor are CC fighters, and Space Marines carry guns, the Eversor have the option of charging the Marines and engaging them in CC, or getting gunned down from across the room.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:

Why would the eversor come out to the marines? It was the marines who were looking to kill the grandmaster.

They didn't. The Marines came in to them. As I mentioned previously, Assassin Temples are generally big, open spaces (seriously, have you never seen a kung-fu movie?).

Since the Eversor are CC fighters, and Space Marines carry guns, the Eversor have the option of charging the Marines and engaging them in CC, or getting gunned down from across the room.

, but the sea that a handful of marines just hunts a peeks one hundred eversor whose training and abilities far exceeds there's seems unlikely.

We don't know how many SM were in the strike force. I used six in my previous example of how six trained soldiers, armed with the proper weapons, can hold off an opposing force many times their own size. If there were more than 6 Marines, their combat efficiency only improves, as you narrow down the avenues of approach. It might have been five hundred marines, a hundred of which carried stormbolters. That is a *lot* of insta-gibbing ammo to be moving down range.

Is 40k a kung-fu movie? No? Oh right, it's not.

Even if there are large open spaces, that does not mean the assassins engaged there. There have also been plenty of times where bullets flying around manage to leave plenty of people standing, even in large battles. Romanticizing the bolter/firearm does not a good argument make.

Eversor aren't just CC assassins. They use executioner pistols.

I am also not so sure that a band of murderers desinged to stay alive long enough to kill the maximum number of opponents would NOT ambush marines who are entering their home.

 troa wrote:
Is 40k a kung-fu movie? No? Oh right, it's not.

Even if there are large open spaces, that does not mean the assassins engaged there. There have also been plenty of times where bullets flying around manage to leave plenty of people standing, even in large battles. Romanticizing the bolter/firearm does not a good argument make.

You can of course point to when people in an open field survived a firing line of people armed with fully automatic 20mm cannons, correct? Bolts are laughably above bullet caliber.

... then you drop the cruiser below the shields, or you drop bombs from Thunderhawks, or you light the place up with Whirlwinds.

Of course, if the Space Sharks had been given the job, they would have strapped bombs to children and told them there was candy in the assassin temple.

I am going to guess dropping bombs on holy terra is some grade A heresy...

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Why didn't they just smash the temple from a strike cruiser?

You could never be sure they were all dead. Or specifically the target was dead. Plus the temple would have been one tough cookie to bombard.

 troa wrote:
Is 40k a kung-fu movie? No? Oh right, it's not.

Even if there are large open spaces, that does not mean the assassins engaged there. There have also been plenty of times where bullets flying around manage to leave plenty of people standing, even in large battles. Romanticizing the bolter/firearm does not a good argument make.

And from my experiences in the military, there are plenty of times where automatic gunfire leaves no one downrange of the weapon standing.

Look, I'm not grand-standing the Marines here, I've already pointed out that *ONE* of them survived, but I'm also pointing out how they managed to wipe out the Eversor. Don't like that armor-piercing mass-reactive explosive shells tend to blow cyber-ninjas into bloody bits? Tough. It's simply an attrition battle. While each of the 100 Eversor might have averaged 5 kills each, they apparently didn't have enough juice to take out Space Marine #501. Them's the breaks.

... then you drop the cruiser below the shields, or you drop bombs from Thunderhawks, or you light the place up with Whirlwinds.

Of course, if the Space Sharks had been given the job, they would have strapped bombs to children and told them there was candy in the assassin temple.

It's Terra. Pretty sure just about everything there has been built to withstand orbital bombardment, considering the planet has been subject to it on two different occasions.

Eversor aren't just CC assassins. They use executioner pistols.

I am also not so sure that a band of murderers desinged to stay alive long enough to kill the maximum number of opponents would NOT ambush marines who are entering their home.

Which are bolt-pistols with a needler, both of which aren't all that effective against PA. They also don't have the range of a boltgun, a heavy bolter, or a stormbolter, all of which are readily available in the armory of a Space Marine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PhillyT wrote:
I am going to guess dropping bombs on holy terra is some grade A heresy...

This, too.

Who says bolter fire is even effective against synskin, which is designed to blunt or stop much more powerful things than bolter rounds.

 PhillyT wrote:
Who says bolter fire is even effective against synskin, which is designed to blunt or stop much more powerful things than bolter rounds.

Synskin is to help with stealth, it is not designed to take heavy fire.

Not according to the fluff in the current codex.

 PhillyT wrote:
Not according to the fluff in the current codex.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Throne_of_Lies_%28Audio_Drama%29#.VBzUFBZNhYE

Not to mention that bolter rounds are AA caliber, explosive rounds. They are really heavy fire.

And synskin is significantly above them in technology level and designed to protect an assassin going into the most dangerous missions solo with the expectation of victory. Pretty sure bolter rounds are low on the lethality totem pole considering what assassins are expected to face.

 PhillyT wrote:
And synskin is significantly above them in technology level and designed to protect an assassin going into the most dangerous missions solo with the expectation of victory. Pretty sure bolter rounds are low on the lethality totem pole considering what assassins are expected to face.

Armor-piercing, mass-reactive and explosive. 0.75 caliber. That is one *big* bullet.

Lexicanum wrote:the temples use many exotic types of equipment, such as synskin, a substance that once sprayed onto the body, forms a black outer skin which protects the wearer from the environment and enhances strength. -- Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader

... Synskin ain't stoppin' a bolter. It's not designed nor intended to. The Tau waxed one during the Taros campaign, as well, though he detonated himself to ensure the Ethereal died, too.

IIRC he took quite the amount of pulse shot before going down.

Didn't he wound the Tau commander too? Or was the Stormies playing the distraction.

Oh, he was hard as nails, no doubt. I'm not trying to imply that the Eversor are cheesecloth, but even an Eversor can only take so much, and a strike force of Space Marines from three different Chapters who are *expecting* the Eversor to be there are kind of at the advantage (even if they did lose their commander on arrival).

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Eversors seem to just be weaker Space Marines. Faster maybe, but then, so are Guardians.

Even then, the Marines were almost killed to a man.

So if Space marines are to eversors what PDFs are to the enemies of mankind, that says a lot about how everything has a counter.

There is fluff already that states evesors can ambush. didn't one lie in wait in a pool of motor oil as hereteks annointed themselves, then leap out to start killing?


I'm sure there is hardly an open space in the temple that isn't covered by some turret or something. Much like an example of ninja homes, they must have trap doors and pitfalls. Besides, the leader of the space marines was headshotted the moment he stepped onto the planet, right?