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Hello fellow battle weary generals. It has been ages since I've posted anything and, in all honesty, ages since I let my Dark Elves off their leash. But the time has come and I have enlisted in a small tournament comprised of a few close mates. My first battle is fast approaching and I am pitting my army and my very inexperienced mind against a very experienced mate and his dwarven army. We're going for a 2000pt battle and i desperately need some advice on battling Dwarves. I haven't finalized my army yet but the units at my disposal are as follows and, unfortunately, I can't really give you his details...
HELP......please.....you're my only hope....hehe

Also, keep in mind, I can substitute units I have for units I dont have....eg. Dark riders for doomfire warlocks....etc

1 x Dark Lord on Black Dragon
1 x Supreme Sorceress
1 x Sorceress
2 x Hydras
1 x Reaper x-bow
2 x Assassins
21 x Cold One Knights
33 x Repeater X-bowmen
40 x Spearmen
5 x Corsairs
5 x Dark Riders
20 x Naggarond Black Guard
5 x Executioners

Pack your toys. Don't play warhammer. Dwarfs just roll out templates and take off toys.

Do you know what kind of army he plays? Not everyone just shoots.

Ill have to do some recon but i don't think hes a big shooter, I think hes more of a close combat kinda guy??

pm713 wrote:
Do you know what kind of army he plays? Not everyone just shoots.

You're right. The good dwarf players do. With eight gyrocopters.

Wow. So helpful...

Here's something a little beyond "you'll lose every time just give up because everyone ever always runs this list and there's nothing you can ever do ever to stop it ever":

- Dark Riders are surprisingly tough fast cavalry. A Gyrocopter is taking out less than 2 models, on average. They'll be able to dance around his units and go for those war machines.
Warlocks are basically the same, but better at it and more expensive.

- Black Guard and Executioners do pretty well against Dwarfs. Witch Elves do well against units with great weapons.

- Dark Elf monsters aren't very expensive, but they'll probably still provide a tempting target for his war machines, buying the rest of your army time.

- Purple Sun is a terrifying spell for Dwarfs. The Lore of Shadow is incredibly effective, too.

- overall, I'd say play fast and mobile. Don't put too many points into any one area. Take out his war machines. If he takes too many, you might be able to win the game by playing Keep Away with the rest of his units.

If you want to do well, don't go infantry. You move too slowly to get there with the necessary numbers. I'd go the warlock-bus route. And death magic. But that should be in every dark elf list, ever.

Moving faster means taking less shooting, but it also means you're bringing fewer models. And with Dwarfen Made crossbows, charging earlier only helps you a little. Still better for units that tend on dodging them the while time, though.

My concern would be the Dwarfs castling up in a corner, which is a pretty common tactic. At which point I say: Purple Sun.
It's just a matter of keeping your wizard alive long enough. At which point...yep. Warlocks.

He doesn't have a gyrocopter.

Warpsolution wrote:
Moving faster means taking less shooting, but it also means you're bringing fewer models. And with Dwarfen Made crossbows, charging earlier only helps you a little. Still better for units that tend on dodging them the while time, though.

My concern would be the Dwarfs castling up in a corner, which is a pretty common tactic. At which point I say: Purple Sun.
It's just a matter of keeping your wizard alive long enough. At which point...yep. Warlocks.

You don't charge dwarfs. You park your blocks 49" away for 6 turns. Which is where the fast cav comes in.

That is how you play against cornerhammer dwarfs.

As for keeping the wizard alive, level 4 death on a dark peg with the cloak.

Sorry, meant to say "Still better for units that tend on dodging them the WHOLE time, though". a.k.a., what you just said.

Pegasus would work. Wouldn't you be worried about all those Gyrocopters, though? Surely one of them could sneak through and charge her or something.

Warpsolution wrote:
Sorry, meant to say "Still better for units that tend on dodging them the WHOLE time, though". a.k.a., what you just said.

Pegasus would work. Wouldn't you be worried about all those Gyrocopters, though? Surely one of them could sneak through and charge her or something.

Gyros deploy before her. And unless you deploy her like a chump, she can get in a position, with warlocks supporting her to make sure that one, or two gyros can get to her, at which point she flees and rallies.

Where are you deploying her that having to flee twice (what's that, about 16"?) doesn't push her off the edge of the board, and still hides her from artillery?

Warpsolution wrote:
Where are you deploying her that having to flee twice (what's that, about 16"?) doesn't push her off the edge of the board, and still hides her from artillery?

The artillery isn't that much of a worry to a flying 3++ ward character.

The shades mess about with opposing vanguards. That guarantees you that she doesn't get hit by a gyro. Then she flies up to 18" away from the opponent's battle-line, with a warlock unit 7" behind her. Thus the Gyros are still on the opponent's 24" line, and she has cast her spells, and gotten to safety.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Do you know what kind of army he plays? Not everyone just shoots.

You're right. The good dwarf players do. With eight gyrocopters.

You are, quite insultingly in fact, mistaking being a good player with having a good army. You can be a good player and not have the optimum list, and you can have an optimum list and be a bad player. To say otherwise is quite simply insulting towards none top tier armiers, because you are basically saying they cannot be good players because they cannot compete with a similar skilled player with a more powerful list.

As for a game vs combat Dwarves, Dark Elves do combat better then Dwarves. You could beat him at his own game. Or be a douche and 6 dice Purple Sun on his biggest unit, but that doesn't make for much of a game for either player.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Do you know what kind of army he plays? Not everyone just shoots.

You're right. The good dwarf players do. With eight gyrocopters.

You are, quite insultingly in fact, mistaking being a good player with having a good army. You can be a good player and not have the optimum list, and you can have an optimum list and be a bad player. To say otherwise is quite simply insulting towards none top tier armiers, because you are basically saying they cannot be good players because they cannot compete with a similar skilled player with a more powerful list.

As for a game vs combat Dwarves, Dark Elves do combat better then Dwarves. You could beat him at his own game. Or be a douche and 6 dice Purple Sun on his biggest unit, but that doesn't make for much of a game for either player.

Having seen a non-cornerhammer dwarf army, you can have all the skill in the world, and get taken off.

Dwarfs don't do the movement phase as well as any other armies.

Dwarfs don't do magic.

Dwarfs do grinding amazingly. No other armies like to grind, apart from warriors, who outfight dwarfs across the board.

Hence my statement. Any good player will realise that most grind based combat matchups won't end well for dwarfs. Most movement shenanigans can fail as you're still M3. For instance, I came up against the strollaz combat list with scouting blocks. I left my flanks open, and then on my first turn, they were locked out of the game for the next 6 turns. The gunline is the only list the dwarf book does well. In the same way that the fast cav list is the only list that dark elves do well, and the wood elf book has one list that does well.

dark believes everyone only ever plays uberoptimized netlists.... and that everyone believes that what is uberoptimized is exactly what he believes is uberoptomized. This does prejudice his opinions in certain directions.

Case in point: Dwarves grind amazingly. Elves, with very rare exceptions (Phoenix Guard comes to mind), don't grind at all - and die gruesomely when they try. So in this case, grinding combats favor the dwarf.

He does have a point on the maneuver battle though.

 Vulcan wrote:
dark believes everyone only ever plays uberoptimized netlists.... and that everyone believes that what is uberoptimized is exactly what he believes is uberoptomized. This does prejudice his opinions in certain directions.

Case in point: Dwarves grind amazingly. Elves, with very rare exceptions (Phoenix Guard comes to mind), don't grind at all - and die gruesomely when they try. So in this case, grinding combats favor the dwarf.

He does have a point on the maneuver battle though.

I did point out that dwarfs grind amazingly.

But, what elf armies actually like to grind. And are capable of fighting dwarfs?

I was a bit confused by your post there, first you said 'dwarfs grind amazingly well'... and then followed it up with 'Any good player will realise that most grind based combat matchups won't end well for dwarfs'. Kinda contradicting yourself there.

The problem close combat dwarves face is, as always, getting the combats they want. Their failings in the maneuver battle make it exceedingly difficult to avoid being outflanked and rolled up. If they CAN get the combats they want, dwarves will smash face against most anything (short of Chaos Warriors).

The MS/MU One-Eye bubble has worked really well around here.
People just don't know what to do when they see several units of 15 Dwarfs that're all Stubborn.
Mix in 'Copters, Miners, maybe Rangers. It's pretty solid. Quarrelers and Irondrakes still threaten at range, and everything's either S5-6 or has at least a 4+/6+.

Warpsolution wrote:
The MS/MU One-Eye bubble has worked really well around here.
People just don't know what to do when they see several units of 15 Dwarfs that're all Stubborn.
Mix in 'Copters, Miners, maybe Rangers. It's pretty solid. Quarrelers and Irondrakes still threaten at range, and everything's either S5-6 or has at least a 4+/6+.

You know what I do when I see 15 stubborn dwarf units? Cackle maniacally as I charge wild riders in.

Every book can counter a combat dwarf list. As a combat list has to dictate the movement phase to be successful. And with a cap of 6 gyros, and an army wide movement of 3", dwarfs can't do that.

«Every book can counter a combat dwarf list. As a combat list has to dictate the movement phase to be successful. And with a cap of 6 gyros, and an army wide movement of 3", dwarfs can't do that.»

Every book can counter every kind of list (maybe with the exception of books like Bretonnian and Beastmen because of their age). Dwarves may have issues with their slow mouvement, but speed is not the only factor. You have to consider distance and objectives. It requires a different approche though. When you are fast, you outmanoeuvre your opponent by forcing him to make moves he doesn't want to make and distribute your forces at your advantages. This, we call active aggression. When you are slow, you must place your forces so that you seem innevitable. You don't need to run much when you are sitting just at the right place. This, we call passive aggression. To most people, active aggression seems a better choice. It makes them feel more in control and, to them, is easier to learn and perfect. For others, it's the opposite. Both strategie are of equal value. A clever dwarf general will deploye in a way that will make it hard for his opponent to outmanoeuvre him and lose so much time doing so that he will prove to be unable to triumph before times run out. Some scenario will help one side over the other, but that's true for all armies.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
You know what I do when I see 15 stubborn dwarf units? Cackle maniacally as I charge wild riders in.

7 Wild Riders deal 12.5 wounds to WS4 Dwarfs with heavy armour. Still leaves enough to be Stubborn and counter-charge.
Wait. Let me guess. You shot the unit down to 5 models first, right? And Purple Sun'd the stubborn Rune off the board in turn 1? And you always charge at least two units of Wild Riders into every combat? And you neutralized the Dwarf shooting in some way before you charged?

...c'mon, dark. You've always got an answer for everything. No doubt. No room for compromise or error. That's not how Warhammer works. That's not how life works.
You want to say Dwarfs are a stronger shooting army? Fine. You want to say that unit, item, or spell X is a good way to counter unit, item, or spell Y? Fine. I'll totally agree with you. But this "the only option ever is to do exactly this, every time, forever" is...well it's wrong. Tactically. Logically. Philosophically. Even if you're right 99.999% of the time, your statement is still wrong.

Warpsolution wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:
You know what I do when I see 15 stubborn dwarf units? Cackle maniacally as I charge wild riders in.

7 Wild Riders deal 12.5 wounds to WS4 Dwarfs with heavy armour. Still leaves enough to be Stubborn and counter-charge.
Wait. Let me guess. You shot the unit down to 5 models first, right? And Purple Sun'd the stubborn Rune off the board in turn 1? And you always charge at least two units of Wild Riders into every combat? And you neutralized the Dwarf shooting in some way before you charged?

If a Dwarf army has any shooting at all, I don't know how 7 Wild Riders make it to the lines at all, unless the unit started larger.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
Where are you deploying her that having to flee twice (what's that, about 16"?) doesn't push her off the edge of the board, and still hides her from artillery?

The artillery isn't that much of a worry to a flying 3++ ward character.

The shades mess about with opposing vanguards. That guarantees you that she doesn't get hit by a gyro. Then she flies up to 18" away from the opponent's battle-line, with a warlock unit 7" behind her. Thus the Gyros are still on the opponent's 24" line, and she has cast her spells, and gotten to safety.

Organ guns and volume of fire a both a problem. A 320 point + flying wizard, even with a 3ward, is still a good target for a cannon. Especially since your "perfect list" has no other target of value for a cannon.
I've seen melee dwarfs anchored with oath stones do pretty well. Not being able to disrupt ranks is a problem.

-Matt

Saldiven wrote:
If a Dwarf army has any shooting at all, I don't know how 7 Wild Riders make it to the lines at all, unless the unit started larger.

Well, I can only assume that thedarkavenger brought 2-3 of such units, and due to his 100% perfect deployment that never varies whatsoever from game to game, regardless of his opponent's designs or happenstance, at least one of them made it into combat without suffering casualties first.

Warpsolution wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
If a Dwarf army has any shooting at all, I don't know how 7 Wild Riders make it to the lines at all, unless the unit started larger.

Well, I can only assume that thedarkavenger brought 2-3 of such units, and due to his 100% perfect deployment that never varies whatsoever from game to game, regardless of his opponent's designs or happenstance, at least one of them made it into combat without suffering casualties first.

Ah, that explains it....

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
Organ guns and volume of fire a both a problem. A 320 point + flying wizard, even with a 3ward, is still a good target for a cannon. Especially since your "perfect list" has no other target of value for a cannon.

An Organ Gun that needs 3's at long range would do an average of...1.3 wounds per volley? Assuming a Cannon has a 50-50 shot of bouncing through the Sorceress, it's doing an average of .5 wounds/turn, with a tendency towards Nothing or Dead.
If the Dwarf player brought two Guns and a cannon, all she'd need to do is roll average on each of them once, and poof.

Right, so this game is back on!!! 2000pts, my Dark Elves vs his Dwarves. I found out he usually uses a rune priest (which apparently can 'eat' my spells?), he uses iron drakes, and a few different war machines....organ guns etc....
I also found my IoB set so I thought I could substitute some of the high elves in to act as dark elves.....prince althran on griffon for sorc on dark pegasus, elyrian reavers for dark riders etc....
Any ideas would be helpful. He is quite experienced and I have played a grand total of about 6 games in the space of 2-3 years.....

Runelords and Runesmiths are Dwarf characters with MR(1 or 2) that give the unit they're in Armour Piercing.
They also channel like wizards.

There's the 25pt Talismanic Rune, the Rune of Spellbreaking, that acts as a Dispel Scroll. Adding another one on top of that costs 20pts, and gives them the additional effect of forcing the wizard to forget that spell on a 4+.

Honestly, the Dwarf book is good. But the High Elf book is incredible. The Dwarf book's units are all basically balanced. They all have their purpose, and don't cripple a player for taking them.
The Dark Elf book is the same, but some of the units are waaay too good for their cost.

We could talk game-theory until we're blue in the face, but in the end, it pretty much comes down to how you deploy and maneuver and pick your targets. Not much we can really do to help you with those in-the-moment decisions.
We can critique a list, though.