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 AduroT wrote:

spacewolflord wrote:
Personally I find sexually explicit models generally boring. If I want to see boobies I have an internet full of them. And this go for female models that leave little to the imagination. They just seem to say "I have boobs buy me!"
But I will admit when the Deamonettes lost their boobs I was not happy. It was their thing to be that way and they still made them look like they wanted to kill you.

Those Daemonettes would still e far superior to the current ones even if they were covered.

If you're in need of demonettes use dark elf witches with a proper unearthly paint job.

Read through some of the content of this thread, though admittedly not all, so forgive me if I'm not following the prevailing winds.

I have no problem with sexually explicit imagery on its own. By 'sexually explicit' I mean anything depicting sexual imagery and/or consensual sexual acts. However, I do have kids and Western culture is already pornified enough so I try to be careful. That's partially where the consent issue comes into play, because I want my kids to have a 'healthy' perspective on sexuality. Sexuality is also tied closely to self-esteem for young people. Another reason to be careful. So I would also qualify that by adding a desire (requirement?) that I be given fair warning about sexually explicit imagery where my children may be present. I visited Osaka a few years ago with my wife and son, and yeah, staying in a hotel 10 meters away from an openly advertising porn theatre, loudly displaying some rather large posters, was a little much. Sensory overload. But if you're only busting out Kingdom Death's Scribe figure minus his covering cloth, my kids can handle that.

I lived in Korea for many years. Among traditional families (agricultural background) it's still common for family to discuss bowel movements at the dinner table, and to fart incessantly. Can't say I was always comfortable with it but hey, at least they included me as a member of the family. My kids were also born in Korea, and I lived with my parents-in-law, so the degree of words like 'poo' and 'bung hole' increased dramatically in relation to diapers and infant health. Normal stuff. FYI, the poo industry in Asia is a big deal, with tons of books, games, and characters devoted to the subject, targeted at all age groups.

http://www.rightstuf.com/rssite/action/store/item/Item?ItemName=cpmd2444 A kids cutsey animated flick. The description brings a smile to my face.
http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--I2UnljWE--/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636/19clpadytjmgajpg.jpg A famous kids character in Korea.
http://sweetandtastytv.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/poop-bread.jpg Street food created to look like poo.

What I did find bothered me in Korea though was that at the same time, sex was never to be discussed. Big taboo. And I've yet to hear a logical argument about how and why one natural bodily function should be treated any differently than another. People construct ridiculous boundaries all the time, most of which are illogical once you start to reflect on them. My experience has been that social conservatism, religion, and tradition are the root causes. Social status and hierarchy, and the way humans have traditionally used clothing to assert their status, also plays a part in the taboos around nudity.

So until humanity in general grows up (maybe 500 years from now, if we're lucky) I will continue to keep my risque' figures hidden away in my workroom.

 greywulf wrote:


However, I do have kids and Western culture is already pornified enough so I try to be careful.

Pornified enough!? Hate to break it to ya mate, but here in the US and Western side of the planet, we're still quite... VERY "puritan" when it comes to sexuality. If you take any movie rated PG-13, or R that ran in a US theater, and edit it for Television, in general, you're going to lose all of the nudity and sexuality scenes (you'll see the "frantic" making out just prior to the big sex scene in the movie, but not the actual "dirty scene" itself). Contrast this with places like Germany, where I watched the SAME movie on German television, and do you know what they edited out? The gun play. The big fight scene. Basically a goodly portion of "unnecessary" violence will be removed, but all the sex scenes will be left in. Heck, if you stay up late enough, you can basically watch softcore pornography on a basic channel on German TV, whereas here in the US, you have to use PPV or the internet to get the same thing.



I also have kids, so I completely understand that you want to do what you can to control the how and when your kids are exposed to things of a sexual nature. But to say our culture is "pornified enough" is just a bit ludicrous.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 greywulf wrote:


However, I do have kids and Western culture is already pornified enough so I try to be careful.

Pornified enough!? Hate to break it to ya mate, but here in the US and Western side of the planet, we're still quite... VERY "puritan" when it comes to sexuality. If you take any movie rated PG-13, or R that ran in a US theater, and edit it for Television, in general, you're going to lose all of the nudity and sexuality scenes (you'll see the "frantic" making out just prior to the big sex scene in the movie, but not the actual "dirty scene" itself). Contrast this with places like Germany, where I watched the SAME movie on German television, and do you know what they edited out? The gun play. The big fight scene. Basically a goodly portion of "unnecessary" violence will be removed, but all the sex scenes will be left in. Heck, if you stay up late enough, you can basically watch softcore pornography on a basic channel on German TV, whereas here in the US, you have to use PPV or the internet to get the same thing.



I also have kids, so I completely understand that you want to do what you can to control the how and when your kids are exposed to things of a sexual nature. But to say our culture is "pornified enough" is just a bit ludicrous.

I think he means the advertising or the encroachment of sexuality, without the actual nudity. Even young kids clothes are becoming oddly provocative. Couple this with the ads on TV, and its like the sexuality of porn without the actual nudity, its crazy frustrating lol

To add to that, I remember growing up, one of my favourite tv shows was Monty Pythons Flying Circus, which my mom was cool with letting me watch since her parents were good with letting her watch it when she was younger. She moved to Canada when she was 10 and that was one of the few available sources of 'good British humor' as my grandparents said it. There are a few skits and several animations that have topless women. My grandparents didn't approve of that but having their kids 'get' good comedy was more important to them.
Anyway, fast forward to a few years ago, my nephew saw The Quest for the Holy Grail at a friends house and it became one of his most favorite movies, so my mom gave him the Flying Circus dvd set one year. My sister watched a few episodes with him, but lost her mind when a scene came on with tits being shown and got sooo angry with our mom for giving her kid something like that to watch. (Just tits being seen - there was never any actual sex)
My mom still doesn't get why my sister made such a big deal over that, and my sister doesn't get why my mom got angry that my nephews been allowed to freely play games like CoD, Bioshock, Fear, Battlefield, etc since he was 10.

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think he means the advertising or the encroachment of sexuality, without the actual nudity. Even young kids clothes are becoming oddly provocative. Couple this with the ads on TV, and its like the sexuality of porn without the actual nudity, its crazy frustrating lol

You hit the nail on the head. Thanks! Ex. bikinis for tots. Popular dance styles that kids perform these days. Seeing that, all I want to ask is... why?

Personally i dont like it for my self cause i can put you in an awkward spot if playing against some one that might get offended, but for somebody else i Dont really care, what ever floats your boat.

Sizable difference between the portrayal of women in a sexualized manner in bubblegum etc and the portrayal of women as victims of sexual violence and objects.

It is the second version I take offence at. Having a wife, mother, female friends and relatives.

Can women be portrayed as victims of sexual violence whilst not being shown as objects, and if so, is there anything wrong with that?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Sizable difference between the portrayal of women in a sexualized manner in bubblegum etc and the portrayal of women as victims of sexual violence and objects.

It is the second version I take offence at. Having a wife, mother, female friends and relatives.

Agreed. This gets close to that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can women be portrayed as victims of sexual violence whilst not being shown as objects, and if so, is there anything wrong with that?

(edited in line with MGS below) not seeing how its an appropriate topic of art for an expensive version of toy soldiers and pew pew noises.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can women be portrayed as victims of sexual violence whilst not being shown as objects, and if so, is there anything wrong with that?

Well, is there anything wrong with the portrayal of child sexual abuse in miniature wargaming? If an 'eldar girl rape scene' is appropriate because 'it's art', is a 'slaanesh cultist getting his johnson out in a locked nursery full of toddlers' an appropriate scene because 'it's well painted'?

The answer, for me, is a definite no. I've worked in child protection and I've worked with women who've been abused. I know there is enough total wickedness in the world that I really don't want it anywhere near one of my sources of escapism. The arguments for such things, the claims of some that 'it's art' or 'it depicts things that really happen' must, I hope, come from people without personal exposure to the real life horrors of violence against the vulnerable. I've seen it for real, I don't want it in my games, my miniatures and my life.

The response of 'well, the horrors of war' is often touted at this point, those also don't apply here, war in these games is stylized and softened in the same way we don't worry overly about the storm trooper left to die slowly and horribly of his blaster wound after Solo shot him or the mutants eviscerated by the sword of omens when Lion-O cruised through.

I am married to a woman, I was born of a woman, I am friends with women. They do not deserve this denigrating portrayal and the sly titillation it encourages among certain of our rank. Like I said in my previous post, a little bubblegum does no harm, imo. Portrayals of sexual victims, victims of violence, however, do. As a side effect, they also send a very negative portrayal of a hobby I love out to the rest of the world and I really begrudge the ill effect these people and their 'ukrainian slave girl' minis or 'impregnating tit monster' being applied to the rest of us.

@MGS: A few points/questions...

Firstly, what defines "portrayal of sexual victims" then? Coz the model in question, the naked women don't look oppressed or victimised to me. Just depicting a sexual act doesn't imply victimisation, the victimisation seems mostly inferred.

Secondly, you say the "horrors of war" thing is stylised and softened... but isn't the sex as well? We're talking about 40k here, not Star Wars or whatever PG-13 movie where the gore is implied, 40k gore is often on display for all to see. I'd argue the sex is just as stylised as the violence is in the context of 40k. I still don't see why one is more acceptable than the other, as wargamers we make light of very real and painful topics. We often see models depicting grievously wounded soldiers, not just in 40k but in actual historics as well.

It still seems rather selective to make light of one atrocity and be outraged by another. Though that said I can understand why you might feel that way if you were specifically exposed to those particular atrocities. When I lost someone close to me under pretty fething horrible circumstances I will admit when I was watching TV/movies I would find myself frequently skipping painful drawn out death scenes because I just really did not want to see it, having experienced watching someone I cared for deeply go through it. But then nor do I want that stuff removed, I just didn't want to watch it myself.

You want to know what really messes up a kid? Porn.

Not Monty Python, and definitely not 40K.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can women be portrayed as victims of sexual violence whilst not being shown as objects, and if so, is there anything wrong with that?

Well, is there anything wrong with the portrayal of child sexual abuse in miniature wargaming? If an 'eldar girl rape scene' is appropriate because 'it's art', is a 'slaanesh cultist getting his johnson out in a locked nursery full of toddlers' an appropriate scene because 'it's well painted'?

The answer, for me, is a definite no. I've worked in child protection and I've worked with women who've been abused. I know there is enough total wickedness in the world that I really don't want it anywhere near one of my sources of escapism. The arguments for such things, the claims of some that 'it's art' or 'it depicts things that really happen' must, I hope, come from people without personal exposure to the real life horrors of violence against the vulnerable. I've seen it for real, I don't want it in my games, my miniatures and my life.

The response of 'well, the horrors of war' is often touted at this point, those also don't apply here, war in these games is stylized and softened in the same way we don't worry overly about the storm trooper left to die slowly and horribly of his blaster wound after Solo shot him or the mutants eviscerated by the sword of omens when Lion-O cruised through.

I am married to a woman, I was born of a woman, I am friends with women. They do not deserve this denigrating portrayal and the sly titillation it encourages among certain of our rank. Like I said in my previous post, a little bubblegum does no harm, imo. Portrayals of sexual victims, victims of violence, however, do. As a side effect, they also send a very negative portrayal of a hobby I love out to the rest of the world and I really begrudge the ill effect these people and their 'ukrainian slave girl' minis or 'impregnating tit monster' being applied to the rest of us.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I am married to a woman, I was born of a woman, I am friends with women. They do not deserve this denigrating portrayal and the sly titillation it encourages among certain of our rank

But do they also need our constant protection and overwatch to make sure nothing we consider "harmful" can corrupt or offend their poor weak minds?

Several of my female gaming friends love the Raging Heroes minis - even the ones with their tits out - they see nothing wrong with them - quite the opposite as it fits the model etc..............

victims of violence,

I imagine to some, the entire making a game /toys out of war is deeply offensive when you cosider the implicaitons - same as letting children play with toy guns?

Any discussion of an art form, which I wouod argue painted minis is, is going to run into these issues - much classic and some modern art has extreme themes - often for shock value rather than asthetic....

Given that 50 shades of Grey is apparently mainstream literature and which is talked about on TV at all hours of the day and is about BDSM and in aprticular femae submisison fantasies- is having the same in some ranges of minis ok or not? Its a very difficult area.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
You want to know what really messes up a kid? Porn.

Not Monty Python, and definitely not 40K.

Hahaha no

People mess up children, negative consequences of say a child found watching porn messes up children not porn itself.

Look at what happened in Poland recently about mothers moaning about donkeys doing what donkeys do leading to them being separated and the centre ridiculed in the press.

Just because a mother was to lazy to explain that's how baby donkeys are made.

Well I guess I'm a horrible dad. Me and my daughter raise giant show rabbit's and she throws them in the cage together to breed them. Then pats her buck on the head and goes good boy after he is done. Then 30 days later gives the Doe treats when she has kits going good momma. I thinks its odd all the butt hurt exspressed in this thread. For the model it self I think its nice and would have no problem playing against it as long as the strippers did not change weapons lol. I looked at my sister's repentia squads and they are way more nude the that. I think there are worse things in life to be offended by.

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I am from the Republic of Ireland, which is admittedly an emotionally and sexually repressed nation.

Hasn't been my experience. Your mileage may vary, but please don't make such sweeping generalizations

Fireraven wrote:
Well I guess I'm a horrible dad. Me and my daughter raise giant show rabbit's and she throws them in the cage together to breed them. Then pats her buck on the head and goes good boy after he is done. Then 30 days later gives the Doe treats when she has kits going good momma. I thinks its odd all the butt hurt exspressed in this thread. For the model it self I think its nice and would have no problem playing against it as long as the strippers did not change weapons lol. I looked at my sister's repentia squads and they are way more nude the that. I think there are worse things in life to be offended by.

Do you give her pictures of girls your daughter's age stuck in cages and covered in blood too? If not then your example is completely erroneous.

Thats what we're talking about here, not little bunny foo foo making more bunnys.

Quite simply put I could care less what models look like. That being said my daughter has played games with me and I dont need here seeing models like this. On top of that neither does the pimply 12 year old across from me during some games.

 Generalstoner wrote:
Quite simply put I could care less what models look like. That being said my daughter has played games with me and I dont need here seeing models like this. On top of that neither does the pimply 12 year old across from me during some games.

I'd like to know how old you are if you don't mind?

When I started chaos was far, far more x rated, heck I liked the Fimir and they were really near the knuckle.

If people don't realize that metal / plastic or resin figures are about as real as fairies and elves then I truly feel sorry for you.

Nursery rhymes are about death and plague but a bit of nudity and the whole world collapses.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
I am from the Republic of Ireland, which is admittedly an emotionally and sexually repressed nation.

Hasn't been my experience. Your mileage may vary, but please don't make such sweeping generalizations

I'm from there, I spent a lot of time there. People don't talk about their feelings, and if they do they feel it necessary to preface them with "no homo." Birth control was only legalised like thirty years ago or so. Organisations openly advertise that women shouldn't be allowed to control their own bodies and were "asking for it" (the Iona Institute et al).

Again, regarding the model, to restate what someone else said: it's not the women, or the nudity, or the affiliation to a certain god, or the blood or gore or guts that are the problem, it is the cages.

Anyway, I've said about as much as I can say on this subject, so I'll just be reading for now while this discussion continues.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:@MGS: A few points/questions...

Firstly, what defines "portrayal of sexual victims" then? Coz the model in question, the naked women don't look oppressed or victimised to me. Just depicting a sexual act doesn't imply victimisation, the victimisation seems mostly inferred.

I see women in cages, with what appear to be wounds. Captive and injured. Also why are the captive caged individuals women at all? Why aren't they both men, or one woman and one man. I would suggest it's the sexualizing factor, the objectification I referred to earlier.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Secondly, you say the "horrors of war" thing is stylised and softened... but isn't the sex as well? We're talking about 40k here, not Star Wars or whatever PG-13 movie where the gore is implied, 40k gore is often on display for all to see. I'd argue the sex is just as stylised as the violence is in the context of 40k. I still don't see why one is more acceptable than the other, as wargamers we make light of very real and painful topics. We often see models depicting grievously wounded soldiers, not just in 40k but in actual historics as well.

It still seems rather selective to make light of one atrocity and be outraged by another. Though that said I can understand why you might feel that way if you were specifically exposed to those particular atrocities. When I lost someone close to me under pretty fething horrible circumstances I will admit when I was watching TV/movies I would find myself frequently skipping painful drawn out death scenes because I just really did not want to see it, having experienced watching someone I cared for deeply go through it. But then nor do I want that stuff removed, I just didn't want to watch it myself.

The morality of the society I've grown up in places a far higher taboo on sexual violence, coupled with the quite real social stigmas of shame and the prejudices against women that exist around these acts. I was quite definitively beaten up as a young teen, my experience and shame were not to the scale of a young woman being raped. Casual violence does not carry the implications with it that sexual assault does.

Mr Morden wrote:

I am married to a woman, I was born of a woman, I am friends with women. They do not deserve this denigrating portrayal and the sly titillation it encourages among certain of our rank

But do they also need our constant protection and overwatch to make sure nothing we consider "harmful" can corrupt or offend their poor weak minds?

A considerable difference between showing respect and avoiding potential insult vs indulging in white knighting.

Mr Morden wrote:
Several of my female gaming friends love the Raging Heroes minis - even the ones with their tits out - they see nothing wrong with them - quite the opposite as it fits the model etc..............

Wife and I really like those models. Neither of us like the crying/supplicating women being sexually penetrated by a giant titmonster that kingdom death put out. Neither of us liked Vinni's 'ukrainian slave'... Again, it's not about sexuality, it's about power/victimization and disenfranchising women in representations.

Mr Morden wrote:

victims of violence,

I imagine to some, the entire making a game /toys out of war is deeply offensive when you cosider the implicaitons - same as letting children play with toy guns?

Any discussion of an art form, which I wouod argue painted minis is, is going to run into these issues - much classic and some modern art has extreme themes - often for shock value rather than asthetic....

Given that 50 shades of Grey is apparently mainstream literature and which is talked about on TV at all hours of the day and is about BDSM and in aprticular femae submisison fantasies- is having the same in some ranges of minis ok or not? Its a very difficult area.

Absolutely, offense, what is acceptable, occur along a sliding scale. As I mentioned above, most folks here would take offense at a baby raping diorama. Society is changing in terms of what is considered in good taste regarding the portrayal of women and asking for feedback from women the common cited offense, as I again mentioned before, is less about 'sexy models' as it is with women as victims.

My wife bought me the CMoN 'Army Brat' model, which I'm very fond of. I like a lot of Werner's minis. She doesn't find it rude, it's bubblegum and doesn't raise an issue. If I owned certain other models, with the woman as victim, that would not sit well at all and I can fully understand and appreciate why.

50 shades of grey, as I understand it, is about female submission fantasy, which like male submission fantasy, is a mutually consenting act, unlike rape, female human trafficking and the subjugation of half the species across the earth based on their lack of a winky...

Actually they don't appear to be wounded. Bloodied yes, but it could be someone else's blood.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Actually they don't appear to be wounded. Bloodied yes, but it could be someone else's blood.

That and I'm pretty sure they're smiling or at least smirking in said pictures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amiricle wrote:
To add to that, I remember growing up, one of my favourite tv shows was Monty Pythons Flying Circus, which my mom was cool with letting me watch since her parents were good with letting her watch it when she was younger. She moved to Canada when she was 10 and that was one of the few available sources of 'good British humor' as my grandparents said it. There are a few skits and several animations that have topless women. My grandparents didn't approve of that but having their kids 'get' good comedy was more important to them.
Anyway, fast forward to a few years ago, my nephew saw The Quest for the Holy Grail at a friends house and it became one of his most favorite movies, so my mom gave him the Flying Circus dvd set one year. My sister watched a few episodes with him, but lost her mind when a scene came on with tits being shown and got sooo angry with our mom for giving her kid something like that to watch. (Just tits being seen - there was never any actual sex)
My mom still doesn't get why my sister made such a big deal over that, and my sister doesn't get why my mom got angry that my nephews been allowed to freely play games like CoD, Bioshock, Fear, Battlefield, etc since he was 10.

Gotta love cultural/parental differences

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:@MGS: A few points/questions...

Firstly, what defines "portrayal of sexual victims" then? Coz the model in question, the naked women don't look oppressed or victimised to me. Just depicting a sexual act doesn't imply victimisation, the victimisation seems mostly inferred.

I see women in cages, with what appear to be wounds. Captive and injured. Also why are the captive caged individuals women at all? Why aren't they both men, or one woman and one man. I would suggest it's the sexualizing factor, the objectification I referred to earlier.

They are covered in blood, they don't look wounded and injured to me, just covered in blood... like the whole tank. They just look like strippers covered in blood to me, the victimization seems to be inferred by the observer than implied by the model. They're in cages but again they don't look to be crying out to escape and the cages mostly look decorative, they look like they're working a stripper pole more than they look to be captive.

Why aren't they men? Perhaps because the person who did it didn't want them to be men. If the female form is more pleasing to the eye, I don't see any problem not using men.

It may sound horrific to you, but if my opponent were an attractive female and said "I want to play in the nude", I'd be like "umm, ok", if it were an overweight dude I'd be like "umm, please don't... or at least put on some pants". I don't see it as wrong to use imagery you find better suits your desired aesthetic, and that might be naked women over naked men.

Also why would it be better if it were one man and one woman? Sexual abuse of boys is a serious issue too.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Secondly, you say the "horrors of war" thing is stylised and softened... but isn't the sex as well? We're talking about 40k here, not Star Wars or whatever PG-13 movie where the gore is implied, 40k gore is often on display for all to see. I'd argue the sex is just as stylised as the violence is in the context of 40k. I still don't see why one is more acceptable than the other, as wargamers we make light of very real and painful topics. We often see models depicting grievously wounded soldiers, not just in 40k but in actual historics as well.

It still seems rather selective to make light of one atrocity and be outraged by another. Though that said I can understand why you might feel that way if you were specifically exposed to those particular atrocities. When I lost someone close to me under pretty fething horrible circumstances I will admit when I was watching TV/movies I would find myself frequently skipping painful drawn out death scenes because I just really did not want to see it, having experienced watching someone I cared for deeply go through it. But then nor do I want that stuff removed, I just didn't want to watch it myself.

The morality of the society I've grown up in places a far higher taboo on sexual violence, coupled with the quite real social stigmas of shame and the prejudices against women that exist around these acts. I was quite definitively beaten up as a young teen, my experience and shame were not to the scale of a young woman being raped. Casual violence does not carry the implications with it that sexual assault does.

I try not to presume what someone else feels. I've been beaten up as a kid... I've also beaten up other people as a kid I haven't however had my family wiped out in genocide, I haven't watched my friends and family tortured and executed, I'm one generation removed from having a family member who died in a war. All those things are pretty horrific things that are trivialised when we play a wargame. We are literally making a game out of war. Doesn't that sound a bit insensitive? We have people in our communities who are still dealing with the psychological and physical damage of war, across the world there's still people being tortured and executed for a bunch of pathetic reasons.

Casual violence and getting beaten up as a kid has nothing to do with the atrocities we trivialise simply by turning war in to a game, let alone the themes of torture and genocide in 40k.

I don't see how stylised sex is any different to stylised violence. It's not even depicting rape or anything like that, just nudity and blood. It's themed on that Debauchery band... I actually hadn't heard of them up until this thread... but watching a couple of their music videos, the women are the ones doing the torturing and what not.

It seems to me that if you have a problem with this model it's because you have a problem with depicting anything sexual, which I disagree with (though you're entitled to your opinion) or you have inferred a theme of a sexual victim, which IMO is your own doing in this case where it's not explicitly depicted as such.

You seem to have entirely missed my point. Ah well.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
You seem to have entirely missed my point. Ah well.

Perhaps I did, your points seemed to be...

1. The women were victimised.

2. There's a social stigma of shame against women with sex.

3. Sexual violence doesn't carry the same implications as casual violence.

To which my reply is...

1. The victimisation is inferred rather than implied.

2. Maybe there is but I don't see how shying away from sexual themes helps that.

3. It may not carry the same implications as getting beaten up as a teenager... however that's not the type of violence we are seeing depicted in wargames anyway, the type of violence we see in wargames has deep and serious implications too and we trivialise it in to a game. If you're against the trivialisation and then flagrantly flaunting of atrocities that have personal implications on real life peoples, it seems you wouldn't be playing a war game to begin with. You wrote off "horrors of war" as being stylised and softened... but so are the sex themes so I'm not seeing what makes sex themes special, especially when it's not actually depicting sexual violence, it's just depicting sex... and violence (if you understand what I mean ).

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can women be portrayed as victims of sexual violence whilst not being shown as objects, and if so, is there anything wrong with that?

Well, is there anything wrong with the portrayal of child sexual abuse in miniature wargaming? If an 'eldar girl rape scene' is appropriate because 'it's art', is a 'slaanesh cultist getting his johnson out in a locked nursery full of toddlers' an appropriate scene because 'it's well painted'?

The answer, for me, is a definite no. I've worked in child protection and I've worked with women who've been abused. I know there is enough total wickedness in the world that I really don't want it anywhere near one of my sources of escapism. The arguments for such things, the claims of some that 'it's art' or 'it depicts things that really happen' must, I hope, come from people without personal exposure to the real life horrors of violence against the vulnerable. I've seen it for real, I don't want it in my games, my miniatures and my life.

Very will said.

The response of 'well, the horrors of war' is often touted at this point, those also don't apply here, war in these games is stylized and softened in the same way we don't worry overly about the storm trooper left to die slowly and horribly of his blaster wound after Solo shot him or the mutants eviscerated by the sword of omens when Lion-O cruised through.

So where do you draw the line? I understand your point about the objectification of women. What I don't understand is, how can you say in the same breath though that "well, the horrors of war" doesn't apply? Are you saying it's ok? You do know that these soldiers rape and murder innocent women as well. No country is innocent of this crime and since these soldiers are based on real life, they do the same thing. If you are playing Space Marines, I guess they don't rape, but they do murder innocents if they don't agree with their "father". So subjectivication of women is wrong but playing Nazi like toy soldiers is ok then. You tell that to a halocaust survivor how your plastic toy men don't subectify women, but they represent the worst in Humanity and are like the SS.

that land raider is awesome.

You do know that they make models that show nude, right?

There is a nice little function on FB. its the small "X" on the upper right of a post. Click it and choose to not see this post anymore.

End of story.