Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Azreal13 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I've had significantly better quality from garage resin kits than I have had with forgeworld... And with better customer service too.

I doubt that, given any issue I've had has been fixed next day, special delivery. Once six months after purchase, when other half was slow at building.

You get that he was just offering his opinion based on his experience right? You also realise that his experience may vary wildly from yours?

You have absolutely no right to "doubt" anything he offers on that basis. Unless of course you have some sort of evidence he's lying?

Good lord, it comes to some thing when people get told their own experiences and opinions are wrong.

Slightly hypocritical post there....

I doubted it - meaning that is an opinion of mine, I am not stating a fact. I find it unlikely that they got *better* customer support elsewhere, as I, and every irl person I know has never had a problem with their customer service. I never stated their opinions are wrong, I just doubted it based on my experience.
Trouble is - you pay a lot, so you expect more. Meaning that a quantitatively identical issue can seem worse on a higher priced kit. Meaning you attribute worse service for the objectively same service. Because we're human.

I've not had the email issues they describe, but then I do always ring up for anything important, like missing / mis-shaped pieces. I do know others who seem to have gotten email blackholed somehow....

Ok, to illustrate; I emailed a garage caster a query about a kit I purchased late on a Friday, got a reply on Tuesday morning with helpful advice and the probelm was resolved and the order sorted out. Items came internationally within a couple of weeks, well packaged and sorted out by model and further by subsection of the model. Virtually zero flash, a small handful of pits caused by bubbles.

Cheap and cheerful price, fast shipping, well packed, good quality models with excellent support. First time I ordered from them but would certainly buy from them again.

Forgeworld? Reverse absolutely everything I just said on multiple models on multiple orders.

I absolutely can compare like for like (before taking price, company size etc into consideration). It is even worse than the baseline comparison when you do compare model price etc.

And every single "I have a problem with my fw model" thread results in every reply telling the op to phone, as their email customer service is, at best, meh.

the quality and fit of the kit seems to depend on a few things.

1 - age of kit (and molds) - older the kit, the more likely you will end up with warped or ill fitting pieces.
2 - full resin or resin/plastic kit. - People seem to have a harder time getting the resin / plastic kits together.
3 - Size of model. bigger model, bigger problems.

In general, if you are not comfortable fabricating pieces, gap filling, or reshaping pieces with heat, dont invest in forgeworld.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I doubted it - meaning that is an opinion of mine, I am not stating a fact.

So you were only stating your opinion that he was ignorant or lying, not stating as fact that he was ignorant or lying... that's so much better... I guess...

A.S.S. - nope, those are your words, not mine. Kindly dont attribute them to me.

For 2) that has been improved recently, as theyre using the same CAD as the plastic design team - see the XV-107 as the first example of this. Means the pieces fit a hell of a lot better!

Obviously I'm just being annoying... but when someone says they've had a certain experience and you say you doubt that, you're either saying you have reason to believe they're lying or ignorant, either you think what they're saying is not true or you think they've misinterpreted their experience thus are ignorant.

Nope, not annoying, just stating someone has said something they havent is rude, and more than a little derailing of the thread.

It can also mean "based on the information presented, I doubt your presentation of the situation" - which is more common. There was a bare statement only, initially, that they have now expanded upon.

So, your false dichotomy is false. Please stop espousing fallacies, mkay?

Still irrelevant to the thread, however, so maybe drop this? Or taking it privately, if you care that much about it?

If you coudl actually contribute now, that would help.

Ok we'll leave it at someone posted their personal experience and you doubted their personal experience and I find that a bit presumptuous and rude unless you have good reason to believe what they said was false or falsely presented. But the actual poster didn't seem to mind so whatever.

Please don't try to take the high ground as if I'm the only one derailing the thread, if it bothered you so much you should have reported my post instead of derailing further by replying to it.

As far as actually contributing to the original topic, I really don't think there's much more to say. I've personally been quite unimpressed at the quality I've received from FW and was unfortunate enough to have had several of the models I bought discontinued so I couldn't get them replaced.

They're well sculpted models with poor quality control and from what I've experienced a mixed bag of customer service. A previous poster said:

 Mecha_buddha wrote:
In general, if you are not comfortable fabricating pieces, gap filling, or reshaping pieces with heat, dont invest in forgeworld.

I'll add to that and say "and if you don't mind possibly getting a flawed product that needs to be replaced".

It's not that I haven't had miscasts from other suppliers, but those other suppliers have typically been small guys selling their products as a much lower price and they've also replaced them happily when there were problems.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Ok we'll leave it at someone posted their personal experience and you doubted their personal experience and I find that a bit presumptuous and rude unless you have good reason to believe what they said was false or falsely presented. But the actual poster didn't seem to mind so whatever.

Please don't try to take the high ground as if I'm the only one derailing the thread, if it bothered you so much you should have reported my post instead of derailing further by replying to it.

Again with the false dichotomies. Apparently the only person to misunderstand was you...

I generally try to rebut falsehoods and logical fallacies directly, rather than reporting. Much quicker.

For the actual on topic stuff (finally) - surely every product has that caveat, that it might be faulty? Hell, I lost count of how many xbox 360s we had replaced due to manufacturing defects. Ive not, myself and with friends who buy an appallingly huge amount (one friends addiction is up to over 10k points of 30k EC...) as well had that high a rate where I need to actually return the item. I've had one instance - macharius vulcan (1 of 3 I got), exceptionally bad - where for once they even asked for the piece back personally, but nothing more.

Not sure on the "fabricating pieces" part from Mecha - Mecha can you explain further? (Minor) Gap filling is expected in instances with resin, minor reshaping should also be expected with resin due to the nature of the product, but I've not heard of needing to fabricate whole parts - is that with regards to entirely missing bits, or GS additions to get things to fit adequately, etc?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
They're well sculpted models with poor quality control and from what I've experienced a mixed bag of customer service.

And the Chinese copies cost one quarter of the price and have better quality control.

That's about all there is to say about ForgeWorld.

I don't like the idea of buying IP-infringing copies, but if you're not phased by that, buy Chinese.



Maybe some day FW will stop being slowed, will clean their own resin, do some quality control and price "reasonably".
Until then... man do we love this hobby.

China can likely afford it - QC for resin is hugely labour intensive, and labour there is much cheaper.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
China can likely afford it - QC for resin is hugely labour intensive, and labour there is much cheaper.

Yeah, because paying a British dude to check one miniature that costs 195 pounds, is going to cost at least 195 pounds more.

morgoth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
China can likely afford it - QC for resin is hugely labour intensive, and labour there is much cheaper.

Yeah, because paying a British dude to check one miniature that costs 195 pounds, is going to cost at least 195 pounds more.

Yeah, because that is all they would do, just check one model, and all they sell are £195 models. Not a whole host of £10 - 15 sets that are probably more tricky to check for errors than the larger sets.

Avoid hyperbole, it makes your arguments very weak.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Avoid hyperbole, it makes your arguments very weak.

Avoid weak arguments.

Since when is QC so expensive that it can't be done by European companies ??

Not only is the valuable QC employee wage not that much higher in Britain, for the same level of quality it's even closer.

It would probably cost them a few percent at first, and then, when they'd have fixed their production issues, almost nothing.


I do expect that from a company with the balls to ask £195 for a small heap of cast resin.

Dealing with replacements is very likely cheaper than having actual QC.

Which is why we don't get QC.

morgoth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Avoid hyperbole, it makes your arguments very weak.

Avoid weak arguments.

Since when is QC so expensive that it can't be done by European companies ??

Not only is the valuable QC employee wage not that much higher in Britain, for the same level of quality it's even closer.

It would probably cost them a few percent at first, and then, when they'd have fixed their production issues, almost nothing.


I do expect that from a company with the balls to ask £195 for a small heap of cast resin.

Avoid strawman arguments. I never said it was so expensive it couldnt be done by a European company. At all. Another logical fallacy to add to the pile. Avoid them if you can, makes your arguments worthwhile.

The point is they *do* have QC. Its just on a sample basis. On a product as highly variable* as this, that might not be the right approach, but from speaking to them, it is more profitable than trying to QC everything - instead they handle returns as needed. Which, even with QCing everything, theyd likely have to do.

Yes, FULL QC does add a hefty margin. Cf. karcher pressure washers, each tested at the factory, to cheap no brand. While you pay more for that funky yellow plastic, and "made in Germany", you also pay a fair whack to know it works when you get it.

Oh, and theyre not charging £195 for a small heap of cast resin, theyre charging £195 for.... resin that has been made from a mold that was made from a 3 up that someone spent 100 hours (+ or -) sculpting. Someone they pay actually a fairly decent wage to, especially for notts

Its amazing wha tyou can find out by talking to them, as opposed to just spouting random, made up crap on the net.

*again, costs far more for a non industrialised process, as your variabilty is too high. FW is not industrialised, GW IS (on plastic) I say this working for a manufacturing company

nosferatu1001 wrote:
China can likely afford it - QC for resin is hugely labour intensive, and labour there is much cheaper.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I never said it was so expensive it couldnt be done by a European company. At all.

You implied it couldn't be done from a business standpoint.
Which is ridiculous considering they could just ship it across the globe, have it checked in China, ship it back to England and then to customers.

You pretended that there was a good reason for FW's QC to be that bad. There isn't.

 Shandara wrote:
Dealing with replacements is very likely cheaper than having actual QC.

Which is why we don't get QC.

True. I mean what's cheaper, 10 quid an hour for a QC person or 10 quid worth of resin now and then when you get a complaint?

Sigh

Full QC is expensive. Which is true. Can they afford it without raising prices? Not likely.

You do understand that FW often cast to order, yes? Not sure customers would like the delays introducted by your "method"

There is a reason, and its a good one. They do sample check QC, and resolve other issues through (generally great) customer service replacements.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Dealing with replacements is very likely cheaper than having actual QC.

Which is why we don't get QC.

True. I mean what's cheaper, 10 quid an hour for a QC person or 10 quid worth of resin now and then when you get a complaint?

Exactly.

If the average replacement cost per item is cheaper than the average cost of the time it would take to employ someone to provide QC full time then it makes absolutely no sense. If you have the infrastructure in place that the majority of complainants aren't going to be too traumatised should they need something replacing, which GW/FW appear to, then it is a no brainer. Especially when you consider a percentage of product that would probably, objectively, be worthy of replacement but will get fixed and filled by the hobbyist without complaint.

At least, that's the economic argument.

The counter point to that is that if you wish to market yourself as a premium brand, if you're supplying product that needs to be replaced once, or even multiple times, before the consumer gets what they feel they have paid for, you are damaging that image.

GW management obviously feel the cost of maintaining their image isn't worth the investment necessary, but then, I guess GW management's judgement can be considered suspect at this time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sigh

Full QC is expensive. Which is true. Can they afford it without raising prices? Not likely.

You do understand that FW often cast to order, yes? Not sure customers would like the delays introducted by your "method"

There is a reason, and its a good one. They do sample check QC, and resolve other issues through (generally great) customer service replacements.

I'm not sure if you're making a joined up point here or simply throwing everything you can at the argument because you somehow feel obliged to defend GW, but you get that casting to order would be the absolute worst excuse for poor quality right? Making one kit, or even using an order to make a small batch of kits, and failing to check them would be pretty shoddy.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
Dealing with replacements is very likely cheaper than having actual QC.

Which is why we don't get QC.

True. I mean what's cheaper, 10 quid an hour for a QC person or 10 quid worth of resin now and then when you get a complaint?

Exactly.

If the average replacement cost per item is cheaper than the average cost of the time it would take to employ someone to provide QC full time then it makes absolutely no sense. If you have the infrastructure in place that the majority of complainants aren't going to be too traumatised should they need something replacing, which GW/FW appear to, then it is a no brainer. Especially when you consider a percentage of product that would probably, objectively, be worthy of replacement but will get fixed and filled by the hobbyist without complaint.

At least, that's the economic argument.

The counter point to that is that if you wish to market yourself as a premium brand, if you're supplying product that needs to be replaced once, or even multiple times, before the consumer gets what they feel they have paid for, you are damaging that image.

GW management obviously feel the cost of maintaining their image isn't worth the investment necessary, but then, I guess GW management's judgement can be considered suspect at this time.

I'd argue that GW doesn't try to market itself as anything (mostly because they don't market pretty much anything beyond "it's new and shiny!"). I mean if they could sell us on the idea that they were a premium brand we wouldn't bitch about prices nearly as much, but as is we are painfully aware of said prices and how much they hurt.

Ok, fair point. Substitute "market" for "position."

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sigh

Full QC is expensive. Which is true. Can they afford it without raising prices? Not likely.

You do understand that FW often cast to order, yes? Not sure customers would like the delays introducted by your "method"

There is a reason, and its a good one. They do sample check QC, and resolve other issues through (generally great) customer service replacements.

You do realize FW not having them cast by the Chinese in the first place is a completely stupid move, yes ?
You do realize that it would cost half the price with full QC, better quality and no last minute casting if they did it right, yes ?

There's a reason and it's simple: FW is a garage business grown fat that has nobody discuss their slowed price/quality ratio because they're a monopoly of sorts.


Their sense of business is horrible, they would shift at least 5 times more titans if they were at half price, and at least 7 times more if there wasn't the scary "omg got to remove mold lines and put GS and pin and " and instead there was a "we'll mount that gak for you and ship it mounted in an awesome carrying case for an additional buck".

They'd also rather give jobs to people in their home country than outsourcing to China like everybody else, which I really admire.

FW isn't a "garage" business. It's a small section of GW and has been from it's inception. If it was something like Chapterhouse and it grew out of control you'd have a point, but it isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother SRM wrote:
They'd also rather give jobs to people in their home country than outsourcing to China like everybody else, which I really admire.

I've always felt that this was likely one of the biggest reasons GW in general isn't as cheap as it could be. They are really adamant about keeping local labor, and that's really expensive, especially on the pound. Yes, you could argue economically that outsourcing could make sense (even if it was just to the US because of how much weaker the Dollar is to the Pound), but there is an ethical argument for not laying off all your employees just to make an easy buck (or quid).

 ClockworkZion wrote:
FW isn't a "garage" business. It's a small section of GW and has been from it's inception. If it was something like Chapterhouse and it grew out of control you'd have a point, but it isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother SRM wrote:
They'd also rather give jobs to people in their home country than outsourcing to China like everybody else, which I really admire.

I've always felt that this was likely one of the biggest reasons GW in general isn't as cheap as it could be. They are really adamant about keeping local labor, and that's really expensive, especially on the pound. Yes, you could argue economically that outsourcing could make sense (even if it was just to the US because of how much weaker the Dollar is to the Pound), but there is an ethical argument for not laying off all your employees just to make an easy buck (or quid).

They behave like a garage business, I know they're a lot bigger, but they really don't operate like a real business.
I don't think GW can outsource more than just miniature production though, and since they're having machines doing that with questionable QC, I wonder if it wouldn't be better in the world's biggest factory.
And I don't think it has anything to do with their prices.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
FW isn't a "garage" business. It's a small section of GW and has been from it's inception. If it was something like Chapterhouse and it grew out of control you'd have a point, but it isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother SRM wrote:
They'd also rather give jobs to people in their home country than outsourcing to China like everybody else, which I really admire.

I've always felt that this was likely one of the biggest reasons GW in general isn't as cheap as it could be. They are really adamant about keeping local labor, and that's really expensive, especially on the pound. Yes, you could argue economically that outsourcing could make sense (even if it was just to the US because of how much weaker the Dollar is to the Pound), but there is an ethical argument for not laying off all your employees just to make an easy buck (or quid).

Doesn't Warlord Games also make their stuff (like Bolt Action) in the UK? They have much lower prices on resin than FW, probably about 30% cheaper, and you can buy their stuff in brick and mortar stores at a discount as well.

Morgoth - GW went down the China production route. Didnt work well, so why would it work better for FW?

They could charge half for a reaver, made in China, but would still get undercut by the resellers, only this time not recasters, but using the original molds, on grey shifts. Making their job that much easier.

Not sure how you think that is a great idea. What businesses do you run again?

and again, they actually make a thing about being British. It has value in some sectors to NOT have "made in china" on your stuff.

morgoth wrote:They behave like a garage business, I know they're a lot bigger, but they really don't operate like a real business.

"Act like" and "are" are not equivalent terms. Just because you think they act like a garage business doesn't make them one. They're a part of GW as a whole and whatever they're doing is based on the limitations of what they're allowed to do (as even after hiring more people they don't have as many people doing the casting work as GW's plastic department).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:Doesn't Warlord Games also make their stuff (like Bolt Action) in the UK? They have much lower prices on resin than FW, probably about 30% cheaper, and you can buy their stuff in brick and mortar stores at a discount as well.

I don't know anything about Warlord Games honestly, but the historical wargames market is really cutthroat since it's all so interchangeable. They may be making a much lower margin then GW does on their products to stay competitive with other historical wargames.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Morgoth - GW went down the China production route. Didnt work well, so why would it work better for FW?
They could charge half for a reaver, made in China, but would still get undercut by the resellers, only this time not recasters, but using the original molds, on grey shifts. Making their job that much easier.
Not sure how you think that is a great idea. What businesses do you run again?
and again, they actually make a thing about being British. It has value in some sectors to NOT have "made in china" on your stuff.

China isn't that easy, I'll give you that.
I can see how it may not have been a success.
How many counterfeit iPhones have you seen recently ?
There's no difference between resellers and recasters in the end, from a buyer's perspective it's still the same quality and the same import risk.

And while some people may feel strongly about being British, everyone feels strongly about paying through the nose for not-completely-incredible quality.